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Hello good people of DakkaDakka. A friend of mine recently quit the game and I ended up getting a lot of painted models. So I wanted to design a list that would do well in most environments, not necessarily completely competitive, but semi-would be fine. After reading all the fluff and lurking for a while, I have come up with this list. Please let me know if it would do well, and how I can improve it. Most of the models are painted and are the old static metal thousand sons, so they are currently soaked to remove the paint, as well as some static plastic plague marines that hold knives. I would rather not mix both together and call it black legion if I can help it.

So if you could, please tell me how the list is, how it would do, maybe some tricks and strategies, as it would influence what I buy next. Thanks!

HQ:
Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon, Daemon Weapon - 150.
Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon, Daemon Weapon - 150.

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra DCCW, Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamer - 105.
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra DCCW, Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamer - 105.

Troops:
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Wind of Chaos, Meltabomb, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 329.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Wind of Chaos, Meltabomb, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 329.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Land Raider, Daemonic Possession - 240.
Chaos Land Raider, Daemonic Possession - 240.

Total: 1999 points, 47 models, 6 armour.

I am thinking of having the Lord with a squad of thousand sons in a land raider. They move, smoke, and move again, rapid fire, and charge. The Lord would be the only one to strike at I5, but after all those hits, he should make short work of the enemies. Hopefully, I would have some daemon support by now.

I have read bad things about the dreads, but with missile launchers, I can just use frag if I have to target my own guys for a fire frenzy, also as combat support.

Land Raiders are there to get the sons in safely, so the rest of the army can deep strike.

Rhinos with combi-melta is for tank hunting, as my army lacks a lot of it.

Does it look bland? Would people have fun facing it?

why do you want to use deamons ? they suck TERRIBLY !
your better off spending the points on a vindicator or a squad of terminators .
dreadnoughts , well , there is a 2/6 chance that he will do exactly what you don't want him to do , so it is pretty risky .
getting rid of those dreadnoughts would give you 210 points to spend .
now , maybe you won't like it , but as far as i can see , you are going to charge . that is not a good idea . after rapid firing , you should detach your chaos general and let him charge . the TS just get another target . giving them melta bombs is not a good idea too , as i have said.
thousand sons are shooty , not shooty-chargy ( lol )

OK, a few things.

Competitive thousand sons can work, but your tactics are a bit off. You DO NOT want to assault with your thousand sons. They are not any good in close combat and you want them to shoot. Now, maybe if your rapid firing has reduced the enemy to only a handful of models, but in general, dont assault.

Thanks for the replies. I went for a shooty-chargy theme as I got the models. That's also the reason for the daemons. But I can always shell out a bit of cash for other units.

The problem with making it shooty is cover saves. Isn't 5th edition ripe with it? I thought about countering it with Wind of Chaos, but that takes me into charge range anyway. How do you get over this?

Can you give me an example of a competitve thousand sons list? Sorry if this seems vague, but I am not very familiar with 40k in 5th edition.

edit:
Are daemons that bad? I thought that since regular chaos space marines were denied to me, I might as well fill the troop slots up with some more bodies.

I don't think daemons are bad at all, but that many of them COULD be a waste of points, but, since you are planning on keeping a mobile TS army, having daemons so soak up assaults could be very helpful. I have to agree and say that taking one dread is risky, but two isn't worth it imo... Taking TS terminators wouldn't be a bad addition, actually brining you some much needed assault power. I would also probably drop the rhinos, tank hunting with a combi-weapon for 35 points? You are essentially paying 35 points for 1 shot and then some tank shocks, I think the points would be better spent on some havocs w/MoT if you want to stay fluffy. otherwise just normal non-marked. (note: you would also have to drop more to fit in the havocs =P)

Terminators could also serve as your tank killing unit also, chainfists + combi-meltas. Deep strike a unit of 3 of them and have them pop tanks. (I would advise not to give them MoT or many other upgrades b/c they will most likely be a suicide unit). A greater daemon instead of one of the daemon squads could also be a nasty surprise.

In a 2k points list, you could also think about having 1x TS Termy squad + LR + 2x TS squads in LR's and a vindicator as a "line breaker" type of army. This would be quite un-tzeentch like, but would still pack a lot of AP3 firepower up close, but the risk of getting assaulted might be too much.

I see. The main problem is that I cannot take Terminators or Havocs as they are not pure thousand sons. It is a gigantic gimp on my part, but I want to try to stay as close to the fluff as possible. I will see what I can do with less daemons though. Thanks.

i see ...
well that's a limitation which you are willing to take .
but you really SHOULD take a vindicator and get rid of at least 1 dreadnought

Jihan wrote:I see. The main problem is that I cannot take Terminators or Havocs as they are not pure thousand sons. It is a gigantic gimp on my part, but I want to try to stay as close to the fluff as possible. I will see what I can do with less daemons though. Thanks.

If staying that true to the fluff is what youre after, then you need to lose those lords.

The only thousand sons that progressed far through the ranks were potent psykers, so get sorcerors in there. Or even better, daemon princes.

Take warptime, and then maybe cheap doombolt (getting to reroll misses and failed wounds), wind of chaos (for rerolling 4+ kills), or gift of chaos (to deal with hordes)

id say wind is too expensive on the asp sorcerors, and they have to get too close, just take doombolt - adds more to the unit, for less.

The great thing about the thousand sons is that they are very flexible, it doesnt matter whether they are shooting guard or marines, youll have a good killcount, and they have no need to cling to cover.

Those daemons just arent scary at all. Id lose maybe two of those units, possibly keeping one for late objective grabbing (you all have a 4++ anyway, so screening is moot)

I have found dreads to be excellent at discouraging chargers, but now they have become a lot more risky.

pairing dreads and princes charging upfield may thin out the firepower between them, but dreads on their own wont work.

Id say the raiders are useless in a TS army: their main use is getting stuff into combat. theyre just not point effective as pill boxes.

you could drop raiders and add more TS, or take obliterators - which are fluffy - both the obbies and TS are seeking knowledge... well. more fluffy than a non psyker leading a TS army, anyway.

TBH, its not possible to take a great fully TS only fluffy army in this edition. youre stuck with only TS troops, sorcerors, princes, and vehicles.

With Tzeentchian habit of guile and trickery, I dont think it would take a large stretch of the imagination to include unaligned units in the army, such as raptors and obbies.

Obbies compliment the army well - both SnP, and the obs provide the needed long range anti tank., and some countercharge, if youre desperate.

a unit of 5 raptors with 2 melts for 120pts makes some good anti tank, or drop the meltas for an annoyance unit thats decent in cc.

First off, it's good to see someone else making a Tzeentch list. I see far too many of the other 3 Gods (mostly Nurgle... T5 is very appealing). There's a couple of things I would change (hehe) about your list.

Daemons are quite good. They can really throw a wrench in the gears of your enemies plan. Having a decently sized cheap unit pop in and assault the same turn that it does is brilliant. This can be used to (if Tzeentch wills it so) tie up an enemy unit that threatens your Thousand Sons. They can also be used to capture/contest objectives. I would only take 2 units with your list.

Dreadnoughts are pretty awesome as well, despite some people freaking out about their ability to shoot friendly troops as long as they are in front of the Dreadnought at the beginning of the shooting phase. Moral of the story is don't put friendly troops in front of your Dreadnought(s)! Personal preference on this one... I love Dreadnoughts and the fact that they can randomly shoot at someone twice is a good thing (if you position them correctly). I think I'd change their weapon though. Plasma Cannons are cheap and effective.

Drop the Lords. Take a Sorc and a Daemon Prince at the least (2 Daemon Princes if you're feeling dangerous ). Lords should be tooled for close combat and that isn't really too Tzeentchy. A Daemon Prince with Warptime is a force to be reckoned with.

I would also drop both Land Raiders. That gives you almost 500 more points to spend. Sure they are hard to kill, but you could take 3 Obliterators (mutating weapons, quite like Tzeentch), a Vindicator with Daemonic Possession, and a Predator. Much more effective at shooting.

The Sorcerers in the Thousand Son squads shouldn't (IMO) be given Wind of Chaos (or most of that other fancy gear). I would personally give your Sorcerer Doombolt. 18" range (while close) is solid and probably around the range in which you will engage most of your targets. Melta bombs... are good for taking up points if you have nothing else to spend it on.

Finally on the Thousand Son squads... I am iffy about giving them a Rhino. It all depends on the size of your table. It could be good to use it as cover, but IMO you want your 1k Sons to be firing all their bolters as much as possible (since they have S&P they can always fire max range, even if they are always moving as if they are in difficult terrain). That again is personal preference. If you have the points for it, I say do it... never hurts to have a bit of extra movement/cover/Combi Melta.

If you're interested in reading the fluff I wrote for my Tzeentch army, let me know and I'll post it in another thread.

I want to read anticitizen's fluff.

BEHOLD! I wrote this when I was sick so excuse any painful errors...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/235413.page

On a related note... if you can write fluff to use something un-fluffy... do it up! For example, in my Slaanesh army I was going to use Khorne Berzerkers and have some converted Slaaneshi Marines and give them all combat drugs .

Thanks for all the ideas. I am afraid I have to disagree with obliterators being more fluffy than lords. Just having a similar rule does not make two things equally fluffy. By that, I can mix plague marines and thousand sons and call them equally fluffy as they are all fearless. Obliterators are infected with the techno-virus and do not communicate. How can they be seeking knowledge? At least the lord is able to have the mark of tzeentch.

That aside, I took in the advise and revised the list. Please let me know if it is better, and how close it comes to being a semi-competitive list. Thanks.

HQ:
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Wind of Chaos - 205.

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour - 125.
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra CCW, Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour - 120.

Troops:
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 342.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 342.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 342.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.

Total: 2000 points, 49 models, 7 armour.

The reason for Bolt of Change is due to my lack of anti-armour, as well as giving me 24" range at better strength. Doombolt is also good due to the assault 3, but I would only take it if I had more anti-tank and the like. Thoughts?

edit: points.

edit 2: On second thought, I could drop Bolt of Change for Doombolt and get more lascannons!

HQ:
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Wind of Chaos - 205.

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, TL Lascannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour - 145.
Chaos Dreadnought, TL Lascannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour - 145.

Troops:
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Doombolt, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 327.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Doombolt, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 327.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Doombolt, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 327.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.

Total: 2000 points, 49 models, 7 armour.

I would take the list with Bolt of Change. Drop at least one dreadnaught, two is just to risky... Get a predator with lascannon sponsons and then take a dreadnaught with an extra CC weapon. If you get fire frenzy, he wont be able to harm anyone.

The reason for two dreads is survivability. If they fire frenzy, they would hit each other. Also, CC support as one dread cannot handle everything. But I see the point. Having lascannons will make life difficult for them both.

Read this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232266.page

anticitizen013 wrote:Read this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232266.page

Wow, that kind of debate is something I would expect with 4th edition. But after 4 pages, there is still no conclusion. In that case, using the BBB, roll to see who is right, which essentially gives me a 50% chance to save my dreads from killing themselves. So not much change in tactics there. Thanks for the link though, as it is interesting to see.

Sorry to hijack my own thread, but I just wanted to make a rant: If you come up with a new edition, UPDATE EVERY CODEX!!!!!one11! It gets rid of confusions, and if the rumours are true that each chaos legion is getting their own codex, one of the nine will be stuck in Space Wolf zone, with no new codex for decades to come, so follow this rule, GW, where ever you are. Rant over, sorry about that.

Yeah, I think if anything you should discuss with your opponent which way to rule that. In any case, I still love Dreadnoughts and it makes me happy when people use them in their Chaos armies (since they are so rare to see).

If you want your army to be competitive then you are best to leave the dreads at home. Yes they can be a lot of fun, but when push comes to shove they will do what you dont want them too 1/3 of the time. For a competitive army this is too much. You have to be able to rely on your forces performing adequately. Dreads are unable to do this, as many a chaos player will admit.

As to your most recent list:

The most competitive way to use 1Ksons (which still wont be a tier 1 army) is to have them as a very mobile force. 1Ksons are best at medium to close range, but suffer in combat. This means that they have to be able to completely destroy a target before it charges them. The best way to acheive this is through lots of squads in rhinos.

The lesser demons are really not worth it. They are at best adequate in combat, which is the only area that they are useable in. They are too expensive, have too basic a statline and too worse a save to be able to seriously threaten dedicated assault units and you should have superior shooting to deal with most ranged units.

Since you arent taking obliterators you need more anti-tank, which means that bolt of change is essential. Two lascannon are not enough to deal with any armour at range. Dont worry about wasting the shooting of a squad using BoC on a vehicle. As long as you choose your targets correctly then it wont matter. Vindicators miss far to often to be considered in any more than a supporting anti-tank role.

The best suggestion i can make is to drop all the lesser demons and both deads and pick up another demon prince and another squad of 1KSons with BoC.

anticitizen013 wrote:Yeah, I think if anything you should discuss with your opponent which way to rule that. In any case, I still love Dreadnoughts and it makes me happy when people use them in their Chaos armies (since they are so rare to see).

I always loved them in 3rd edition. Never used them much after that, sadly.

Regwon wrote:
Since you arent taking obliterators you need more anti-tank, which means that bolt of change is essential. Two lascannon are not enough to deal with any armour at range. Dont worry about wasting the shooting of a squad using BoC on a vehicle. As long as you choose your targets correctly then it wont matter. Vindicators miss far to often to be considered in any more than a supporting anti-tank role.

The best suggestion i can make is to drop all the lesser demons and both deads and pick up another demon prince and another squad of 1KSons with BoC.

I can drop the Dreads, but what is left for anti-tank? I thought daemons could make up for the sons' lack in combat abilities. I guess not, as they are essentially marines with worse saves. After taking in this advise, do you think this list would work better?

HQ:
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Wind of Chaos - 205.

Troops:
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 337.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 337.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 337.
Thousand Sons x9, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 337.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.
Chaos Defiler - 150.
Chaos Defiler - 150.

Total: 1998 points, 41 models, 7 armour.

edit: tags

The way I see it, Thousand Sons are always going to struggle against Armour-heavy lists, so in my list (which I don't yet own, I just wrote it to see what I could fit) I have four Bolts in my squads, and Ahriman with a 5th. My list was only 1750 though, you could probably have 2 BoC Sorceror HQs to fill that role better.

Elessar wrote:The way I see it, Thousand Sons are always going to struggle against Armour-heavy lists, so in my list (which I don't yet own, I just wrote it to see what I could fit) I have four Bolts in my squads, and Ahriman with a 5th. My list was only 1750 though, you could probably have 2 BoC Sorceror HQs to fill that role better.

Good point. Would the daemon princes work better than sorcerors? Wind of chaos lets me glance anything on a 4+, and I get 2d6 for armour penetration (that still works for 5th, right?). Or even a daemon prince with bolt of change. Why the sorceror is my question, as 30 points for a Mark of Tzeentch is quite costly.

edit: spelling

Yeah, pretty sure its still 2d6 pene...I'm not sure about Princes though. You can't hide them like foot Sorcerors. If they have Wings, you should be able to get close enough, but, sadly, that would work better with other things to draw fire - and a 1k Sons list struggles to fit much if it's all pillow-y.

The 2d6 armor Pen makes Demon Prince great for ripping open armor, Warptime helps a great deal with that. Although you don't get to reroll armor pen, you can reroll the hits on the vehicle. And yes you do need to hide your DP a bit, because even at 4 wounds and eternal warrior, your +3 armor/+4 inv saves only make it last for so long. Tuck it behind terrain or advancing vehicles and give it wings so it can get where it belongs quick.

Edit: deleted.

BlackDracoSLC wrote:Tuck it behind terrain or advancing vehicles and give it wings so it can get where it belongs quick.

Of course, that goes without saying. I miss land raiders as shields...

I do get the nagging feeling that my list is looking more bland, but hey, if it works, then I am happy. Do most competitive lists suffer from this "bland-syndrome"?

I am also thinking of a sorceror with wings and bolt of change as a tank hunter. Maybe even a combi-melta, but that loses out on wings. So a meltabomb, but that makes him vulnerable to shooting next turn. Argh, the choices.

Post 2:

A quick glance through my old codex reminded of something - Fallen Angels. Chaos Space Marine Veterans are basically chosens, and can be used to represent Fallen Angels. The GWUK site also has a set of guidelines for a mission, and I think I can add them into my army for some extra 'oomph'. The negative side is that it ceases to be a pure TS army, but I get to use some of my robed models.

HQ:
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Wind of Chaos - 205.
Chaos Sorceror, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125.

Elites:
Chosen Chaos Space Marines x6, Meltagun x3, Flamer x2, Chaos Rhino - 183.

Troops:
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 299.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 299.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 299.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 299.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.

Total: 1999 points, 44 models, 7 armour.

Fallen Angels would be represented by the Sorceror and Chosen. Lash was chosen as I do not want them to charge directly towards a unit that they cannot win. Otherwise, mark of slaanesh+lash will be switched for warptime, or a lord.

What changes would you make? If you faced this army on the tabletop, would you think that it is 'cheesy'? Does it stay true to the fluff or should I forget about it and leave the list as it was?

edit:
The lash was included mainly when facing Dark Angels using the mission, as I would be forced to move towards them. Otherwise, I might sub them out for something else.

edit2: sorry for the double post.

edit3+: spelling

I'm sorry but lots of people have mentioned demons to be rubbish.

Lock up a unit of terminators, a dread, some lords or even fexes with them and say that again please! oh, and grab some objectives too!

the last list is good just shove as much magic into the list as possible

I like the list. It's certainly not cheesy. Also, you could robe up the Fallen as well, using DA Vets, and have an entirely robed army, even though its not pure Sons. Although...who's to say the Fallen there don't worship Tzeentch?

Elessar wrote:I like the list. It's certainly not cheesy. Also, you could robe up the Fallen as well, using DA Vets, and have an entirely robed army, even though its not pure Sons. Although...who's to say the Fallen there don't worship Tzeentch?

That's the idea. Although the last time I tried using DA vets took me ages, as sawing those metal guys in half took ages. Still worth a shot, and I can order the Cypher backpacks to give them a distinctive look.

I am very glad that you do not find it cheesy. Hopefully my opponents will also share your view.

Fallens can't have any icon of chaos, according to the scenario from the GW website, but apparently the lord or sorceror can, so I guess it is all right (I hope). Any Fallen Angels fluff-manics care to say a word or two?

WingWong wrote:I'm sorry but lots of people have mentioned demons to be rubbish.

Lock up a unit of terminators, a dread, some lords or even fexes with them and say that again please! oh, and grab some objectives too!

This worked in 4th, but now with 'No Retreat' in 5th when they lose combat (and they will lose combat) they will end up getting wiped out anyway due to combat resolution. If they are on objectives then they will be sat there , not having any impact on the battle until something decides to assault them, at which point they will go away. You want to have things with ranged weapons on objectives, so they can still contribute. There are far better fearless troops choices to use for any role that you may want to press lesser demons into.