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jivardi wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

jivardi wrote:

A.T. wrote:

jivardi wrote:
And every army out there can pump out mortal wounds.

Well... sisters can pump out around 4 1/2 moral wounds in one go, but it does cost a command point and nine repentia.
Sisters just aren't good at putting out mortal wounds.

Callidus or Inquisitor (lone) takes care of that. Inquisitor doesn't mess up our Convictions, neither does the Assassin. Both are reasonably cheap.

My list has Greyfax in it for Smite and for Deny rolls.

Callidus can be held off the board and then deploy anywhere more than D3+3 from an enemy unit. So a roll of a 1 means a 4" charge. Very difficult to fail and especially so if you burn 1 cp to reroll. Sure you have to roll both dice but rerolling snake eyes or a 1 and 2 are always worth the CP burn. Odds are in your favor to not fail again.

I will have the ability to take any of the 4 Assassins.

Callidus assassin will get one turn to shoot and does MAYBE 1 mortal wound(and you're ignoring the fact that in this situation it's not actually an invul save, it's an armor save that can't be modified. A culexus will do more damage in melee), greyfax is terrible as a caster compared to how good she is as a denier and is quite overpriced even with that in mind. Neither will do any significant amount of mortal wounds, especially not to one specific target arriving by deepstrike or outflank. Not exactly what I would call 'pumping out the mortal wounds.' If you want to bring an assassin, a barehanded Culexus will do more damage on average to the theoretical 2++ than any of the others will.

As for weight of fire being the best option, agreed. But every army in the game is going to have less fire to bring to bear due to the points increases and a smart opponent utilizing 2++ infantry will be clearing things like stormbolters/hurricane bolters/etc off the field before the 2++ infantry ever even lands.

Most likely the best strategy will be to simply body block the models, not even wasting shots at them. Feed them one to two small units per turn and hope to win on objectives. If the 2++ does become a main meta strat, we'll likely see a shift towards MSU argent shroud rather than Exorcists and friends VH just so we can have more board control.

We'll see what GW does with SS. Wouldn't be the first time that 2 pieces of wargear with similar names had 2 different rules. If terminators don't get the "special" SS than my point still stands. If GW "allow" a 2++ save that can't be modified than just ignore them. They don't move fast, they can't shoot since they have no ranged weapon so their only threat is punching us in the face. Don't let them. Our infantry can move just as fast as they can.

You can't realistically kite the unit all game. They'll come in on top of something with Deepstrike, spend CP to get what is basically an auto charge, kill it, and then be either in the center of your force or on an objective you need to take.

Baiting them out with a good unit you can survive without, like a single exorcist out in the open, often works. Same thing for gumming them up with battle sisters by bubblewrapping them so they have to waste most of their movement just walking around; while also murdering the rest of the army.

It's not unbeatable, just really obnoxious.

yeah but assuming you 5++ your infantry units they only kill 4.5 models. You then don't need to kite it you just pile it with BGshots and CC and it dies in one turn

U02dah4 wrote:
yeah but assuming you 5++ your infantry units they only kill 4.5 models. You then don't need to kite it you just pile it with BGshots and CC and it dies in one turn

Only if it's generic terminators using no buffing abilities with the entire unit having THSS and you have at least 333 bolter shots with canoness rerolls to kill a unit of 10 before CP reroll. Also if they attack the absolute worst possible target you could put combat terminators into (single wound infantry with an invul). If they have any way to punch a hole in your screen, which they should do considering they're marines, 5 of them kill an exorcist outright.

no not really because im assumming you CC and are bloody rose and if your like me your 4++ giving imagifier also gives +1S and you have a missionary nearby because thats a basic setup for bloody rose

your basic sister makes 2 bg attacks (your RF) as the assault squad is at your lines your bg kills 0.111111 termies in CC the 3 attacks kill 0.222222 termies

So ignoring Sgt/Cannoness/Celestians/moral/storm bolters that do it better each sister has the expectation of killing 1/3 of a termy or 30 sisters kill a 10 man squad 15 kill a 5 man squad assuming 2++ (Yep 30 Sisters not 160 to kill a 10 man )

as to reverse yes 4.4 sisters assumes no buffs 9.7 includes sanguinor + dante in a BA list where both dante and sanguinor make their charges so all termies can get in combat (but at a huge extra cost in buffs) (Its also not replicable accross the board as multiple squads would have to be centered around dante and sanguinor to be buffed limiting your board control) sure you could send a cpt with each but that only makes it 5.1 dead sisters

U02dah4 wrote:
no not really because im assumming you CC and are bloody rose and if your like me your 4++ giving imagifier also gives +1S and you have a missionary nearby because thats a basic setup for bloody rose

your basic sister makes 2 bg attacks (your RF) as the assault squad is at your lines your bg kills 0.111111 termies in CC the 3 attacks kill 0.222222 termies

So ignoring Sgt/Cannoness/Celestians/moral/storm bolters that do it better each sister has the expectation of killing 1/3 of a termy or 30 sisters kill a 10 man squad 15 kill a 5 man squad assuming 2++ (Yep 30 Sisters not 160 to kill a 10 man )

as to reverse yes 4.4 sisters assumes no buffs 9.7 includes sanguinor + dante in a BA list where both dante and sanguinor make their charges so all termies can get in combat (but at a huge extra cost in buffs) (Its also not replicable accross the board as multiple squads would have to be centered around dante and sanguinor to be buffed limiting your board control) sure you could send a cpt with each but that only makes it 5.1 dead sisters

Your math is real off. One, terminators have 2 wounds so halve all the numbers you gave because the boltguns do .1111 WOUNDS, they do not kill .1111 termies.

For shooting you have 60 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s landing wounds on 1s, so 60*.667*.5*.1667= 3.33 wounds which is one and a half terminators.

For melee you're hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, landing wounds on failed 1s. 30 sisters don't kill 5 terminators. 30 Sisters have 126 (1 per sister+1 per sister for bloody rose+2 for 2 superiors+2 for their chainswords) attacks with bloody rose and a priest on the charge. They hit on 4s, wound on 4s with +1S, and will actually land a wound on a failure to roll a 2+. That's 126*.5*.5*.1667, which is 5.2 wounds, which is 2.5 terminators.

3.33+5.2=8.53 wounds equals 4 dead terminators

Totaled together 30 battle sisters under perfect circumstance against a unit of 2++ terminators that have failed their charge while also spreading out enough to allow all sisters into combat kill maybe 4 terminators before CP rerolling armor saves get taken into account.

The bigger consideration though, is that terminators will not be killing battle sisters unless they absolutely have to, and battle sisters will not have the opportunity to kill terminators while at full strength. Turn one will be used to both force the sisters list to spread out a bit and to shave off as many bodies as possible(bloody rose means that most marine anti-infantry weaponry will shed a lot of bodies turn 1), turn two will be attacking a flank made vulnerable by your turn one moves. You're not just gonna have 10 terminators slowly meandering into a chaff unit to die.

Once those BSS squads aren't at full strength with perfect range, both imagifier and priest, and no casualties before swinging in combat, the math gets real sad real fast.

That said, terminators are still very expensive and can be played around, even at 2++. Just don't charge 30 battle sisters headlong into them when it takes 3 turns to kill that many termies. Goo them up with 1 unit and call it a day.

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
no not really because im assumming you CC and are bloody rose and if your like me your 4++ giving imagifier also gives +1S and you have a missionary nearby because thats a basic setup for bloody rose

your basic sister makes 2 bg attacks (your RF) as the assault squad is at your lines your bg kills 0.111111 termies in CC the 3 attacks kill 0.222222 termies

So ignoring Sgt/Cannoness/Celestians/moral/storm bolters that do it better each sister has the expectation of killing 1/3 of a termy or 30 sisters kill a 10 man squad 15 kill a 5 man squad assuming 2++ (Yep 30 Sisters not 160 to kill a 10 man )

as to reverse yes 4.4 sisters assumes no buffs 9.7 includes sanguinor + dante in a BA list where both dante and sanguinor make their charges so all termies can get in combat (but at a huge extra cost in buffs) (Its also not replicable accross the board as multiple squads would have to be centered around dante and sanguinor to be buffed limiting your board control) sure you could send a cpt with each but that only makes it 5.1 dead sisters

Your math is real off. One, terminators have 2 wounds so halve all the numbers you gave because the boltguns do .1111 WOUNDS, they do not kill .1111 termies.

For shooting you have 60 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s landing wounds on 1s, so 60*.667*.5*.1667= 3.33 wounds which is one and a half terminators.

For melee you're hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, landing wounds on failed 1s. 30 sisters don't kill 5 terminators. 30 Sisters have 126 (1 per sister+1 per sister for bloody rose+2 for 2 superiors+2 for their chainswords) attacks with bloody rose and a priest on the charge. They hit on 4s, wound on 4s with +1S, and will actually land a wound on a failure to roll a 2+. That's 126*.5*.5*.1667, which is 5.2 wounds, which is 2.5 terminators.

3.33+5.2=8.53 wounds equals 4 dead terminators

Totaled together 30 battle sisters under perfect circumstance against a unit of 2++ terminators that have failed their charge while also spreading out enough to allow all sisters into combat kill maybe 4 terminators before CP rerolling armor saves get taken into account.

The bigger consideration though, is that terminators will not be killing battle sisters unless they absolutely have to, and battle sisters will not have the opportunity to kill terminators while at full strength. Turn one will be used to both force the sisters list to spread out a bit and to shave off as many bodies as possible(bloody rose means that most marine anti-infantry weaponry will shed a lot of bodies turn 1), turn two will be attacking a flank made vulnerable by your turn one moves. You're not just gonna have 10 terminators slowly meandering into a chaff unit to die.

Once those BSS squads aren't at full strength with perfect range, both imagifier and priest, and no casualties before swinging in combat, the math gets real sad real fast.

That said, terminators are still very expensive and can be played around, even at 2++. Just don't charge 30 battle sisters headlong into them when it takes 3 turns to kill that many termies. Goo them up with 1 unit and call it a day.

your correct i forgot to factor 2 w so double the numbers and messed up melee

as to numbers

bolt gun 2 x0.666666x0.5x0.1666666666 nshotxBSxSVSTxArmour =0.11111111111

as to melee 3x0.5x0.5x0.16 =0.12

so 0.2311 at 10man squad 2 w =86-87 sister or 18 units 9 for a 5 man but that as noted in reality is better as you have sgt (+2A )SB(+4shots )sacred rites x7/6 (extra attack on 6's) and cannoness x7/6) etc

so if you want real precision 5 man battle sister) BG 14x0.666666x0.5x0.16666 x7/6 (canonness=x7/6 2xSB=+4shots) =0.91 CC 17x0.5x0.5x0.1666x7/6x7/6 (SR= x7/6 Cannoness=x7/6 SGT=+2A) = 0.96 or 1.87W per squad or 10.65 squads to kill a 10 man 5.3 to kill a 5 man


as to perfect position no im assuming you DS your assault squads in made it and killed a 5 man squad or rhino - where your now surrounded why because sisters especially in ninth are going to want to block around your buffs you DS in and make your charge your in RF\ Charge range of everything - my lists are 85% infantry its what sisters do well you can pick your type but the biggest thing you'll get to is a rhino- why would the sisters list spread out. T1 you have half your units in DS your rhinos go forward as a mid table block - and you sit a couple of battle sister squads back to block DS/hold objective.

your correct when not buffed the math is bad so....shocker.... most players will block around the imagifier in the centre not run to 4 corners for no reason especially now secondarys encourage you to hold mid table you land your picking of a 49ptish ds blocking squad on a flank and stuck because your slow once you DS and have no guns or you drop near the rhinos and my whole force can be brought to bare

T2 you can charge the rhinos dropping our best infantry in position to hit back or hit a 5 man battle sister squad thats their to block DS and then slowly make your way back to the fight

(also just to be clear you run the imagifier buffs including +1INV as 9" buffs which in centre board gives you quite a range) and the cannoss+missionary/priest buff are not from singular sources

this is also working on the assumption AP doesnt degrade you and it probably will by the TOs ive heard comment on this

Ok, so if I have it right:

Stormshields will supposedly give +1 to armor saves.
This makes their 2+ a 1+. Now I get that they autofail on 1s. I also get that it's still a 1+ before AP. I'm just trying to figure out how a melta or plasma doesn't turn that into a 5+/4+. How does it switch to an effective 2++?

If it also increases invulnerable saves, that would make them a 1+/4++. But plasma would still drop it down to the invulnerable save.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Ok, so if I have it right:

Stormshields will supposedly give +1 to armor saves.
This makes their 2+ a 1+. Now I get that they autofail on 1s. I also get that it's still a 1+ before AP. I'm just trying to figure out how a melta or plasma doesn't turn that into a 5+/4+. How does it switch to an effective 2++?

If it also increases invulnerable saves, that would make them a 1+/4++. But plasma would still drop it down to the invulnerable save.

Its something to do with the exact wording.....lots of arguments about it on several threads.

I've said dozens of times.

Until it's FAQ'd by GW I won't play any SM player that claims their terminators have a 2++ save.

If Terminators are going to have a 2++ save then they'd better be around 100pts each BEFORE wargear. LOL

 Mmmpi wrote:
Ok, so if I have it right:

Stormshields will supposedly give +1 to armor saves.
This makes their 2+ a 1+. Now I get that they autofail on 1s. I also get that it's still a 1+ before AP. I'm just trying to figure out how a melta or plasma doesn't turn that into a 5+/4+. How does it switch to an effective 2++?

If it also increases invulnerable saves, that would make them a 1+/4++. But plasma would still drop it down to the invulnerable save.

Rolls cannot be modified below 1.

So you take a wound, roll a dice for your save; let's say the result is 3; then subtract the ap, let's pretend it's AP -10. The result of that die roll isn't -7. it's 1. If you have an armor save of 1+, that armor save passes because you still rolled a MODIFIED result that was greater than or equal to your save characteristic.

Unmodified rolls of 1 still fail but modified rolls of 1 pass because, again, that result is greater than or equal to your save characteristic of 1+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jivardi wrote:
I've said dozens of times.

Until it's FAQ'd by GW I won't play any SM player that claims their terminators have a 2++ save.

If Terminators are going to have a 2++ save then they'd better be around 100pts each BEFORE wargear. LOL

The rule is really black and white. It also only affects models that have the new stormshield rule AND a 2++, which until the day 1 FAQ is just the indomitus models.

jivardi wrote:
I've said dozens of times.

Until it's FAQ'd by GW I won't play any SM player that claims their terminators have a 2++ save.

If Terminators are going to have a 2++ save then they'd better be around 100pts each BEFORE wargear. LOL

Just ask them to show you on the Terminator data sheet where it says they have +1 Save storm shields.

ERJAK wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Ok, so if I have it right:

Stormshields will supposedly give +1 to armor saves.
This makes their 2+ a 1+. Now I get that they autofail on 1s. I also get that it's still a 1+ before AP. I'm just trying to figure out how a melta or plasma doesn't turn that into a 5+/4+. How does it switch to an effective 2++?

If it also increases invulnerable saves, that would make them a 1+/4++. But plasma would still drop it down to the invulnerable save.

Rolls cannot be modified below 1.

So you take a wound, roll a dice for your save; let's say the result is 3; then subtract the ap, let's pretend it's AP -10. The result of that die roll isn't -7. it's 1. If you have an armor save of 1+, that armor save passes because you still rolled a MODIFIED result that was greater than or equal to your save characteristic.

Unmodified rolls of 1 still fail but modified rolls of 1 pass because, again, that result is greater than or equal to your save characteristic of 1+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jivardi wrote:
I've said dozens of times.

Until it's FAQ'd by GW I won't play any SM player that claims their terminators have a 2++ save.

If Terminators are going to have a 2++ save then they'd better be around 100pts each BEFORE wargear. LOL

The rule is really black and white. It also only affects models that have the new stormshield rule AND a 2++, which until the day 1 FAQ is just the indomitus models.

So black and white theres a 5 page YMDC thread on the issue with TO's local to my area ruling against it.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-9th-edition-munitorum-field-manual-points-review/

New Goonhammer article up with points previews.

Striking Scorpion YT channel did a unit by unit pts breakdown.

Morts and Penitent Engines went down, all other infantry went up by a deuce.

Excorsists with EML got the biggest points spike even though the EML and ECR got points reductions. But excorsists were super good for their points in 8th, I don't see them collecting dust in 9th either. EML version went up the price of 5 current Dominions without weapons and the ECR version went up the cost of 2 current Dominions.

According to Goonhammer Sisters fair pretty well compared to some armies price hikes.

Yeah I did up an Excel sheet using SS's breakdown, and it doesn't look that bad.

Everything that's still good is probably still good. Everything that's bad is probably still bad.

Like Immolators. The non-flamer versions are even worse off than the Exorcist in terms of points bumps, and its not like anyone really considered them good in the first place.

Multi-melta Retributors are the exact same as current, so they look better since in comparison.

Melta and plasma guns dropped in points so even with Dominion price going up by 2 the Dominions with Melta/plasma are actually cheaper.

Stormbolter went up a point so my 6 girl Dom squad went up 20pts. I modeled the Condemner bolter on and I'm not breaking my models so my Superior went up 6pts.

My list isn't going to change a lot. The decrease of my Penitents pays the increased cost of a couple of my 5 man units.

I'll have to work it out later to be exact but my 2k list is maybe 2200 now; maybe less.

So vehicle heavy bolters went up. So while mortifiers got a reduction if you were taking them with twin HBs they cost more overall now it looks like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The lack of changes to immolators is sorta depressing :/

So I got my Spreadsheet up and running, some highlights:

Overall, we took about a 10% hit across the board. Our competitive lists made out a little worse at closer to 15 but some previously borderline things saw relative reductions to make up for it.

Special Characters took 5ish percent hits, which leave Junith and Celestine in a good place but makes the Triump still garbage considering it needed a drop BEFORE AND it gets screwed by the terrain rules.

Exos are still our best unit after only seeing a 15% nerf (and likely seeing buffs in the future due to the baffling change to HBs), the gap just isn't quite as wide now. 2 Per list still mandatory, the third is a bit more optional now.

Seraphim ate a THIRTY SIX Percent increase that looks way worse than it is because IPs came down 2 points each to compensate. Melta Drop squads are still great, RIP to anyone who was using large squads or handflamers.

BSS actually got the worst of a lot of this. 25ish % increases for them with stormbolters means the troop tax is REAL now. People running argent shroud(who could give them melta without making other sisters players vomit in their mouth) are doing great though with the big drops there bringing them actually DOWN 3 points from 8th.

Dominions with SB ate a big chunk of hate with a 25% increase on them, but MM Domis came DOWN 15% so maybe not totally useless now? If we had a way to transport them that didn't cost a billion points they'd be great. Or, yunno, if they could scout inside vehicles. I know it's a crazy idea no one's ever had before but it just might work.

Zephyrim double dipped their points bump with raises to both their base cost AND powerswords. Still only 17% increase, in line with what intercessors got. Still a good unit. Less likely to see them due to detachment changes though.

Retributors with HB are 10% more expensive now, which means they're probably no good no more compared to the next option. HF Rets came DOWN 1.5%, which is nice. Don't take a combi-flamer, it eats the bonus. You're better off with a combi-imelta because you can actually use Holy Trinity without jumping through any hoops which makes it not the worst strat in the book anymore! YAY!. Multimelta Rets went down, but unless Repressors are still reasonable(and legal) you still won't be taking them because a 10 girl squad with ablative wounds for a VH shot tanker strat is 6% more expensive and 20 points more expensive than the exorcist after armorium cherubs.

Morifiers and Pengines both saw big drops in their base prices, which is great. The, again, baffling change to heavy bolters hurts HB Morties some; seeing about a 6% total increase factoring the Anchorite dropping more than the regular. HF Morties saw a full 7% DROP when bringing a heavy flamer (which is even MORE baffling than the change to heavy bolters because it's not like being able to move and shoot without penalty matters for a Heavy Flamer, why are they more expensive for vehicles? Pengines went down 10%. These could be our new competitive melee options, especially with them being so brutal from reserves (did you deepstrike my backline? 3" Charge Pengines say 'Bad Idea')

Immolators are trash. I kinda never want anyone to talk about bringing them to games again.They ate 2 of the MOST, and I'm going to use this word again, BAFFLING changes in the codex, the 10pt bump to Twin Multi-meltas and the 13 point bump to twin Heavy Bolters. Combine that with the unfortunate hit to regular heavy bolters and an already pretty bad unit is utter garbage now. The ONLY consolation is that they forgot to needlessly bump the immolation flamer so you can still get an immolator for ONLY35pts more than it's worth.

Unless the rules for multimeltas, twin multimelta, and twin heavy bolters are chaning, they're dead options for ANY vehicle, not just ours.


A point of fact, I haven't checked the Space Marine focus, but if eradicators stay at 120pts for 3; if you were already going to take a second detachment, AND you wanted more melta, they would be a better option than anything we have for the points, even if you factor in losing sacred rites.

Which reminds me. We did fine, about what I expected, tbh. The only problem is, if the leaked points changes are still accurate for marines, it doesn't matter, they're still likely the top dog.

ERJAK wrote:
Which reminds me. We did fine, about what I expected, tbh.

At this point outside of walker-heavy lists it looks like ~15% up for most sisters lists (in line with some early leaks) with bigger increases on both the good and the compulsory options, with no real bones thrown.

I suppose if nothing jumps out as a 'good' choice then perhaps it is a job well done for internal balance. Whether that is the case or everything is just a step behind the rest remains to be seen.

Is there any indication Geminae have to pay for their power swords again? 18ppm is already tough to swallow for a bad unit. 23 would be horrendous.

Also, after listening to StrikingScorpion82's Forgeworld video, it appears the Repressor is going legends...

... Just as we all anticipated.

Erjak forgot the reason for twin hb point changes. They improved in 9th

tneva82 wrote:
Erjak forgot the reason for twin hb point changes. They improved in 9th

No I didn't. 17pts was too much for a Twin heavy bolter on anything that couldn't move without the penalty before, excluding IF. Making all vehicles able to move and shoot gets rid of the -1 penalty, which would make 17 points finally fair. It going up to 30 means it'll never be taken voluntarily again (outside of IF.) and any unit that HAS to take it gets hosed. Same for a regular heavy bolter except replace 17 and 30 with 10 and 15.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Which reminds me. We did fine, about what I expected, tbh.

At this point outside of walker-heavy lists it looks like ~15% up for most sisters lists (in line with some early leaks) with bigger increases on both the good and the compulsory options, with no real bones thrown.

I suppose if nothing jumps out as a 'good' choice then perhaps it is a job well done for internal balance. Whether that is the case or everything is just a step behind the rest remains to be seen.

No, it's about a 10% bump on average. The special weapons buffs knock out most our infantry nerfs, characters barely moved(or didn't at all in the case of the miraculous imagifier) and nothing took a targeted nerf. My own calcs agree with goonhammer's calc and put us at right around the 7th least hit faction overall.

The only exception is if you were doing a flight of the valkyrie style list or if you skewed really heavily into stormbolters.

Some of our more competitive lists haven't functionally changed very much with others(namely argent shroud lists) now becoming significantly cheaper relative to the field. I also think that Mortifiers and Pengines are going to be genuinely very competitive until the first new CA comes in and knocks the majority of these changes back down because of how wacky some of them are.

ERJAK wrote:
No, it's about a 10% bump on average. The special weapons buffs knock out most our infantry nerfs, characters barely moved(or didn't at all in the case of the miraculous imagifier) and nothing took a targeted nerf.

It depends heavily on which weapons you take and the size of your squads. Heavy flamers, meltaguns, and minimum squads bring you in cheap, most other options will be pushing you to 15-20% and up.

Large squads across the board are up, even the minimum inferno seraphim squads are up almost 14%, the vehicles are all up 14-15%, repentia over 15%, dialogus, hospitaller, repentia superior all around 14%.

You'll have to be running a fairly small subset of the codex - min sized melta/hflamer squads, walkers, imagifiers, and the canoness/named characters. As soon as you start adding bodies, hulls, or bolter weapons I don't think that 10% will hold up.

A.T. wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
No, it's about a 10% bump on average. The special weapons buffs knock out most our infantry nerfs, characters barely moved(or didn't at all in the case of the miraculous imagifier) and nothing took a targeted nerf.

It depends heavily on which weapons you take and the size of your squads. Heavy flamers, meltaguns, and minimum squads bring you in cheap, most other options will be pushing you to 15-20% and up.

Large squads across the board are up, even the minimum inferno seraphim squads are up almost 14%, the vehicles are all up 14-15%, repentia over 15%, dialogus, hospitaller, repentia superior all around 14%.

You'll have to be running a fairly small subset of the codex - min sized melta/hflamer squads, walkers, imagifiers, and the canoness/named characters. As soon as you start adding bodies, hulls, or bolter weapons I don't think that 10% will hold up.

No one was going to take large squads thanks to blast already, doesn't really change much. The only vehicle that matters is the Exorcist and sure it took a 15% hit, but that's in line with the average on a unit that was FANTASTIC before so it's still coming in hot for the new edition.

And okay, you do have a point that while the average across the army is about a 10% bump, some of the better stuff was hit around 15% (Zephyrim) but here's thing. 15% is ZERO at the moment. So even if we're only slightly below that, we're still seeing a net increase in effectiveness.

You're not going to be running multiple 10-15 girl squads anymore and you're not going to be able to do 10 girl Retributors in a ruin (because it's 215pts now) But to compensate we have significantly upgraded melta units and much more usable Mortifiers and Penitent Engines.

Are we still going to want to ally with someone for the last 500pts or so of the list...probably (especially with eradicators around being 10pts more expensive than our vastly discounted squad of dominions) but the core of the army is mostly fine.


I'd actually be much more worried about of CP because Battalion+Patrol is basically mandatory due to how our CTs work.

But yeah, we did fine overall. Certainly better than most flavors of eldar, nids, most of chaos, etc did.

It looks like Repressors may have gotten the legends treatment. They aren't in the new FW books.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-9th-edition-munitorum-field-manual-points-review/

Legends
Some out of production Forge World models, most notably the Chaplain Dreadnought, have no cost here so are presumably being shuffled off to the great Legends PDF in the sky. Don’t panic if you’ve just brought a fancy new kit from Forge World – the list is pretty short and the relevant ones are basically:

Chaplain Dreadnoughts
Lias Issodon
Hellwrights
Sororitas Repressors
Death Rider Commissars
None of these have been in production for a while (and indeed in Issodon’s case never had a model) and the same is true of most of the other things that are gone (some of which are also just removing random Forge World variants of mainline models, where any conversion will still be fine to use as the core unit).

New FAQ/Errata up:

The Triumph counts as having 9 wounds, and not 18. Terrian only.

The Mortifiers ability just removed flamers from the wording.

Battle Sanctum got terrain keyword.

Devout Serenity was re-worded.

So looks like Triumph isn't a dead model after all?

Edit:Clarification on the triumph errata.

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
New FAQ/Errata up:

The Triumph counts as having 9 wounds, and not 18.

The Mortifiers ability just removed flamers from the wording.

Battle Sanctum got terrain keyword.

Devout Serenity was re-worded.

So looks like Triumph isn't a dead model after all?

Wait so the triumph gets full character protections now? Well that changes the equation.

ERJAK wrote:
Are we still going to want to ally with someone for the last 500pts or so of the list...probably (especially with eradicators around being 10pts more expensive than our vastly discounted squad of dominions) but the core of the army is mostly fine.

It's too early to say where 10% or 15% sits because when it all shakes out you may well have a codex with a 20% average increase that is only half that on the stuff that matters and twice that on the stuff that doesn't. No reason to worry about that for now, I just didn't think that the 10% figure was accouting for the bulk of the codex options.

The options though are what i'm looking at, hoping the sisters don't get squeezed again on 'good' units and pushed towards fewer useful builds/playstyles or soup.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
New FAQ/Errata up:

The Triumph counts as having 9 wounds, and not 18.

The Mortifiers ability just removed flamers from the wording.

Battle Sanctum got terrain keyword.

Devout Serenity was re-worded.

So looks like Triumph isn't a dead model after all?

Wait so the triumph gets full character protections now? Well that changes the equation.

Nope, only counts as having 9 for the purposes of terrain.
Still unusable, just not as much as people feared.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
New FAQ/Errata up:

The Triumph counts as having 9 wounds, and not 18.

The Mortifiers ability just removed flamers from the wording.

Battle Sanctum got terrain keyword.

Devout Serenity was re-worded.

So looks like Triumph isn't a dead model after all?

Wait so the triumph gets full character protections now? Well that changes the equation.

No, it counts as having 9 wounds for the purposes of terrain.

Wouldn't say unusable. With basically 3 autopasses for save per turn, -1 to hit and in decent terrain it's hard to remove. It's yet to die for me except when took on half dead chaos knight and that was due to bad rolling for me and very good dice rolling for him.

With under average price increase(aka point drop) looking forward to more of it