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So I'm generally pretty new to Fantasy and just got enough models to play some 1000 point games to get the rules straight coming from 40k. I played my first two games against ogres.

In the first game I did ok, but still lost and in the second game I was completely steamed rolled. And seeing as how the place I play at has several Ogre Kingdoms players I thought I might need to figure out what kind of VC lists beat them and what not.

I was using two large blocks of zombies to pump and hold them and then trying to flank with a Talisman of Lynci (Nikes) vampire. But those ogres are just so tough I couldn't get through at them. Along with those I had two smaller blocks of ghouls and a large block to hide my casters. The ghouls kept getting their front ranks wiped. I got charged a lot which was probably my main problem. I was wondering if I shouldn't move the first turn and just buff ghouls with my Summon Ghouls Vampire.

Along with that I've been thinking of running a Vampire with flight, the terror causing sword and the armor that reduces things initiative and removes charging bonuses to fly into/behind blocks without characters to cause terror. But 180 points seems a bit much when I usually only spend 145 on a vampire with Summon Ghouls and Dark Acolyte, especially if he will most likely be beaten down by big groups of ogres. But he might be more useful for fighting other armies.

So thoughts on VC or just hordes in general vs Ogre Kingdoms?

Honestly, I think it was the charge that caused your defeat.

I would use Terror when possible, seeing as although most ogre players rarely expect psychology from their opponents their Ld values aren't fantastic (Barring Ironguts, but Doom and Darkness should take care of that)

Post your list, it would help more.

You are probably going to have trouble at 1000. His few units are still strong, your few units still suck and you can't get enough to quite outnumber him the way you want. The terror vamp is good, but if he's flying out on his own vs ogres you might end up with more trouble. I would also like to see your list and his if possible.

My list:

Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Nightshroud 165
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Cadaverous Cuirass, Biting Blade 165
Necromancer 55

10x Ghouls 80
10x Ghouls 80
14x Ghouls w/ Ghast 120
20x Zombies 80
20x Zombies 80

Varghulf 175

This is the list I was running. And I see the flaws it has already. The ten man units of ghouls that I planned on pumping and sending into the fray had their front ranks knocked out very easily. They need the champs not the 14 man bunker unit of ghouls I was placing my vampires in, although that unit does need a ghast as well to take challenges off the vampires. The Varghulf really isn't good at fighting opponents like the ogres. I had him run up the table edge and he was just in the charge range of three ogres (that had some very nice guns) who pummeled him in CC and killed him with res the next combat. My rolls during the second game were less than stellar though. I'm beginning to doubt the abilities of the zombies to hold units. But it's probably just the power of an individual unit of bulls that really surprised me on that front. I'm also reconsidering the need for every vampire to be armed as well, it seems most things coming at them are going to take whatever armor save they have away from them, but again that is probably my thinking in terms of only playing against ogres.

A revision to the list I've been thinking of is

Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Flying Horror, Skabscrath, Nightshroud 180

10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
10x Ghouls, Ghast 88

Varghulf 175

In this second list I have the flying terror vampire, who would be effective against other armies as well as the ogres. The Varghulf would be able to march up behind him to discourage anyone from attempting a change on him although. If something did charge him I could always issue a challenge and take out the champ pretty handily but I think against ogres I would still lose out to res by quite a bit. The other vamps and ghoul units are pretty self explanatory.

Erm, I'd actually take out the Varghulf and try to get some Cairn Wraiths. There's nothing wrong with your original list. If you take your second list, those ogres will kill off those undead before you can summon them back. If you took some cairn wraiths, it's be a unit that the Ogres couldn't hurt, but you could easily. Plus, they cause terror.

Cryonicleech wrote:Erm, I'd actually take out the Varghulf and try to get some Cairn Wraiths. There's nothing wrong with your original list. If you take your second list, those ogres will kill off those undead before you can summon them back. If you took some cairn wraiths, it's be a unit that the Ogres couldn't hurt, but you could easily. Plus, they cause terror.

I've been overlooking the Wraiths for so long. I keep thinking them inferior to Varghulfs somehow but I think my mindset is trapped in higher point games. The mindset I've been prescribing too is one where the Varghulfs are backup and enablers for larger units of Black Knights, but in my lower point lists I'm missing the punch and backup of the Black Knights to the Varghulf. The Cairn Wraiths will actually be striking in combat more often then not, almost impossible for a normal unit of bulls to kill them with combat res when they will be swinging 9 Str 5 (I've got that right don't I? Great weapons increase strength by two?) at WS 3. So 4s to hit, 3s or 4s to wound depending on the unit and they won't be making saves in most cases and if they are they will be at 6+. So all in all they stack up much better when taking a charge from the ogres and do much better when charging them. Do you think a banshee would fair well in the unit or would it simply rob the unit of 3 good attacks for a not so stellar shooting ability? I'm not sure on the exact leadership of ogres but the average for 2d6+2 will be 9 and that is at least a couple wounds to the charging unit. But I don't know if a stand a shoot reaction robs a unit of anything else along with those attacks.

Along with this, I just now realized we forgot that my Varghulf had terror as well. So those charging ogres might not have even gotten there in the first place. Oh well, something to remember for next time.

Here is another list revision:

Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Flying Horror, Skabscrath, Nightshroud 180

10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
20x Zombies 80
20x Zombies 80

3x Cairn Wraiths 150

This list leaves 44 points open for different configurations of magic items on the two other vampires or a few more ghouls or zombies. Should I stop trying to reiterate the list with the Flying Terror Vampire? He seems like such a sure deal and such a surprise to the opponent when he up and strikes down a unit charging, if they make it through the terror.

I would ditch the zombie units as it's so easy to make units that big with like 2 spells...and they suck. I would turn those ghoul units into 20 man blocks so you don't have to worry about raising any and when you do raise them they will just be giant unkillable units. Also, you're going to take the charge so you might want to invest in a corpse cart to make your guys strike first.

Bat Manuel wrote:I would ditch the zombie units as it's so easy to make units that big with like 2 spells...and they suck. I would turn those ghoul units into 20 man blocks so you don't have to worry about raising any and when you do raise them they will just be giant unkillable units. Also, you're going to take the charge so you might want to invest in a corpse cart to make your guys strike first.

I don't think I want to necessarily waste those dice having to create then pump up units of zombies. Along with having to rely on two spells on any such turn to build my army on the first turn. Given it could work, a single casting of raise dead could provide a unit of zombies up to twelve inches out from the caster with d3+4 zombies and each casting of IoN on that unit raises it by 1d6+4 zombies, so at a minimum I have a 10 man unit of zombies and at a maximum I'd have 17 zombies, still only 2 full ranks. With the two units of 20 zombies included in my list I have 4 full ranks, and if I do decide to pump those units on the first turn I could have units of 25 to 30 zombies with a single casting. It appeals to me a little more to have them in the list to begin with, but I'm not actually sure if it's very efficient to use the zombies to take the charge and maneuver the ghouls to the flanks.

I have to agree with you that 20 man units of ghouls would be pretty beastly on the table, especially with IoN from Vamps with summon ghouls could get pretty impressive, after only a couple of casting I could have them from anywhere from 22 to 32 ghouls per unit. But I think only having two units might serve to be a problem. The ogres with guns, in my specific current situation, can put out a great deal of firepower and they almost completely took down a unit of 25 ghouls during one of my games last week. On taking the charge I think there larger blocks of ghouls would do pretty well, but I'd end up having to put a lot more IoN into them than I would have to zombies. I usually find myself pumping the ghouls and the zombies pretty evenly on the first turn, and that might be one of my flaws tactically, but in subsequent turns I usually only hit zombie units with one or two IoN while I maneuver ghouls.

I think another leg up my current write up might have over one with larger blocks of ghouls and a cart is numbers. I have 8 units, the Summon Ghouls vamps will most likely take up in the ghoul units though. So that's still 6 units I'd have compared to 7. But in those 7 units I have to find room to hide 3 vampire casters who aren't wearing armor.

But despite my bad mouthing that set up the entire time, I might give it a whirl. It could work out in the long run when I move up to higher points games. Here is a short list.


Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145

20x Ghouls, w/ Ghast 168
20x Ghouls, w/ Ghast 168

Corpse Cart 75

3x Cairn Wraiths 150

With this list I have more casting power, 8 PD and 5 DD, lets me have a very good chance of getting off as many spells as I can each turn (say I was just boosting ghouls my entire first turn, it'd be a casting using a single die twice from one Vamp and two casting using a single die from each other vampire, then two more more reliable two die castings from other two). The corpse cart itself, I have no experience with, do I put it to work in combat? I'm guessing no against Ogres, as res and their high strength might take it out pretty quickly and it might be a pretty big target regardless. So Cairn Wraiths to move around quickly and take things out Ghouls to tie units up in some pretty hard to deal with combat and a cart for support and possibly some combat late game if need be. The more I think about it the more I'd like to try this list out. Maybe a few small tweaks.

What do you think about this?

Vampire (General): Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Helm of Commandment, Black Periapt 190
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145

11x Ghouls, w/ Ghast 96
11x Ghouls, w/ Ghast 96
12x Ghouls, w/ Ghast 104

Corpse Cart 75

3x Cairn Wraiths 150

In this list the large unit of ghouls serves as a bunker for all three vampires (You can do that right? If not someone let me know) and the general provides a little extra magical kick when I don't dispel much after the other armies caster is dead. The Helm will greatly increase the ability of the ghouls to stay around when they take a charge. They'll even be able to best the ogres because they will be striking first with the cart around, as long as it gets the bound spell off.

I went to buy a few Cairn Wraiths yesterday at my not so local GW. Turns out they sent them back to the distributor last week and now I'd have to order them to get them. What boggles my mind is that there is more than enough space on the shelves for them and they left the tomb banshees. Odd really. So I think it might take me awhile to get any Cairn Wraiths.

Does Ogre kingdom have lots of magic wielding units?

maybe ethreal units you have can help?

The only problem with small units is you're betting that your opponent can't stop your magic. If they can then you're screwed right from the start because your general's unit will get blasted to nothing and you'll crumble. Try this:

Vampire(General): Dread Knight, Walking Death 150
Vampire : Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Helm of Commandment, Black Periapt 190
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Book of Arkhan 180


20 Zombies 80
20x Ghouls, w/ Ghast 168

Corpse Cart 75

3x Cairn Wraiths 150

This gives you enough stuff to take on a variety of threats..and if you don't like those Cairn Wraiths(too expensive for 1000 point games) you can add another unit of ghouls. Which would probably be a good idea since the helm wont work out so well if all your vamps are in the same unit.

Run Konrad, doesn't his wounds double? He'll tear through Ogres.

Ozymandias wrote:Run Konrad, doesn't his wounds double? He'll tear through Ogres.

I have been shying away from the special vampire characters. Konrad is quite the beast, with the sword of Waldenhof, infinite hatred, Red fury and WS 7 I can see him taking down ogres pretty consistently. The only thing I'm worried about Konrad is his One bat short of a belfry rule. I have a feint idea how stupidity and frenzy work, but I'm still not sure on the fine details. I suppose I need to brush up on the main rules a little more.

Also, on a side note. Konrad's model is one of the only two vampire models I don't completely hate.

Konrad does rape ogres, I speak from experience, also run blood knights, on the charge they even eviscerate a fully upgraded unit of 6 bulls with a seriously beefed up bruiser

20 zombies and a necromancer in a building, ogres just cant get enough whacks off to beat the unit

and if you want some more ideas p.m. a guy named kogwar he plays V.C. and obliterates my ogres every time

Typeline wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:Erm, I'd actually take out the Varghulf and try to get some Cairn Wraiths. There's nothing wrong with your original list. If you take your second list, those ogres will kill off those undead before you can summon them back. If you took some cairn wraiths, it's be a unit that the Ogres couldn't hurt, but you could easily. Plus, they cause terror.

I've been overlooking the Wraiths for so long. I keep thinking them inferior to Varghulfs somehow but I think my mindset is trapped in higher point games. The mindset I've been prescribing too is one where the Varghulfs are backup and enablers for larger units of Black Knights, but in my lower point lists I'm missing the punch and backup of the Black Knights to the Varghulf. The Cairn Wraiths will actually be striking in combat more often then not, almost impossible for a normal unit of bulls to kill them with combat res when they will be swinging 9 Str 5 (I've got that right don't I? Great weapons increase strength by two?) at WS 3. So 4s to hit, 3s or 4s to wound depending on the unit and they won't be making saves in most cases and if they are they will be at 6+. So all in all they stack up much better when taking a charge from the ogres and do much better when charging them. Do you think a banshee would fair well in the unit or would it simply rob the unit of 3 good attacks for a not so stellar shooting ability? I'm not sure on the exact leadership of ogres but the average for 2d6+2 will be 9 and that is at least a couple wounds to the charging unit. But I don't know if a stand a shoot reaction robs a unit of anything else along with those attacks.

Along with this, I just now realized we forgot that my Varghulf had terror as well. So those charging ogres might not have even gotten there in the first place. Oh well, something to remember for next time.

Here is another list revision:

Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls 145
Vampire: Flying Horror, Skabscrath, Nightshroud 180

10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
10x Ghouls, Ghast 88
20x Zombies 80
20x Zombies 80

3x Cairn Wraiths 150

This list leaves 44 points open for different configurations of magic items on the two other vampires or a few more ghouls or zombies. Should I stop trying to reiterate the list with the Flying Terror Vampire? He seems like such a sure deal and such a surprise to the opponent when he up and strikes down a unit charging, if they make it through the terror.

yea, cairn wraiths are awsome, and take the frakkin banchee, the scream more than makes up for the lack of close combat prowess