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This is pure experimentation but having just started a new Sisters of Battle Light Vehicle Spam list, I felt the call of Eldar again...

As opposed to my normal list - Saim-Hann with big Bike Council, I wanted to experiment with a Serpent borne council, complete with count-as Eldrad, and count-as Yriel, as well as mechanised troop choices as opposed to my bikers of the Saim-Hann army.

Controversially , based on the local tournament system which includes a few tournaments with just Win-Draw-Loss results - no massacres etc. I am going to experiment with TWO Troop choices. Relying on the Fire Prisms and DAVU Falcon to contest and capture objectives in the last turn.

The Seer Council clears enemies off objectives, or just plain kills stuff . It could be easily swapped out for a JetBike Council if needed.

The Foot Seer Council will be heavily converted, as will Eldrad and Yriel - counts-as models, to remove some offence to FluffNazis (TM).

This list will take me a long time to build - on a low budget being a teen - and will require many online discount purchases etc. but hey - I'll really go for a painting and modelling score on this one as well - a chance to practice freehand on Serpents, blending and glazing elsewhere.

Anyway, the list. I am fairly happy with it - I'd like another Enhance on the council but it's not critical - and I could reduce council numbers to add BLs everywhere but with my local metagame (Orks, Orks, Nidzilla, Lash + Oblits - and a lack of Land Raider Spam) - EMLs will do.

HQ:

Eldrad (21X)

Yriel (15X)

10x Warlock: w/ 2x Embolden, 1x Enhance (275)

All in, Wave Serpent: w/ EML, Stones (135)

Troops:

10x Storm Guardians: w/ 2x Melta, Warlock (260)
w/ Spear, Destructor
In Wave Serpent: w/ EML, Stones

5x Dire Avenger (60)

Heavy Support:

2x Naked Fire Prism (230)

Falcon: w/ EML, Holofields, Stones (180)

Total 1500: 10 KPs (a little high, but it is mech.), 2 Troop Choices, 32 models, 5 Vehicles.

This list is far from perfect, and a Council at 1500 may be a little much - and may be considered 'cheesy' (pah ) but this is pure experiment, and a chance for me to practice my converting and painting skills.

Rather than suggesting major changes - maybe go for smaller advantageous changes, even modelling ideas. I feel this list should at least work in part.

Please no blanket statements that - 2 Troop choices are not competitive please - at least suggest something. But that is kind of the focus of experimentation...

Than you for any replies.

Regards, Dark Fire

It's not just the council, it's yriel, eldrad AND the council at 1500. Just way way too much at 1500.

I would drop the council and yriel and put eldrad in the Falcon with the Dire avengers. then take the points you saves and add a couple more storm guardian squads in serpents

Well, the Council with Eldrad and Yriel is not only an anvil but also a hammer unit.
However, its rather pricey in 1500 pts. I'd drop Eldrad for a Farseer with fortune.
This will save you enough points to get a second troop unit in Serpent.
Drop the Falcon and spend the remaining points for a Pathfinder unit.

@ Sushicaddy -

Inquisitor Dark Fire wrote: I wanted to experiment with a Serpent borne council, complete with count-as Eldrad, and count-as Yriel.

There's little comp over here in the UK (GT included) - and I am a competitive player. This unit also gives the greatest converting possibilities.

@Wustenfux -

Inquisitor Dark Fire wrote:I am going to experiment with TWO Troop choices.

.

Anyway, I wanted to use a DAVU vehicle I'm afraid, and a Falcon, with Holofields suits this tactic best IMHO.

Pathfinders completely I'm afraid, even more so in this list. They are static, they do not really fit with a mech. force. There are so many units in competitive play that will destroy them easily, via special deployent - such as Snikrot, Drop Pods, Infiltrate, deepstrike, or via cover ignoring shots - seemingly most of the units in the SM codex and the new IG codex (i've seen a store copy ), flaming Obliterators etc.

No need to drop Eldrad when I only want TWO troop choices I'm afraid - I mean, with the 100 points saved what coud I add? I lose mindwar - for painboys and Apothecaries, nobs etc, Doom, double Fortune for when Yriel seperates to go bomb somebody, or for the two serpents cover saves, Power Witchblade attacks, Divination (which could relocate all my mounted units potentially) - I could try adding 4 JBs with Shuricannon but pah. I don't know, suggest a few things please - I'm stuck lol.

How vital do people think the Fire Prisms are? I could swap them for a Falcon - and give everything BLs. Also, I could downgrade the Storm Guardians to Dire Avengers - 5 man, but keep the serpent, and add another DAVU Falcon, and BLs everywhere - just throwing out ideas - although that gives 3 DAVU units - which detracts from the point of the list's experimentation.

Actually - another idea, swap the Prisms for Bikes + BLs. Or, downgrade Stormies, lose Prisms, add a Falcon with 6-man Banshee unit (Exarch w/Acrobat) to work in the concert with the Council. With reducing number of vehicles I don't actually lose as much saturation as I first thought - because I have 4 vehicles going forwards, rather than 3, and 2 hanging back.

i don't see any reason to justify the points on the special characters

EasyE wrote:i don't see any reason to justify the points on the special characters

Please expand EasyE - give reasons why you don't, and say what you'd replace them with.

Anyway, quick bump - please comment on my previous piece, or the list

My biggest problem with Eldrad in the foot seer council is he doesn't have fleet :(. I'd go with a regular farseer with fortune because of this. Not having fleet can really gimp you.

Maybe use the points savings of droping Eldrad to get a unit of 3 jetbikes with a shuriken cannon for a 3rd troops choice and put them in reserves every game and hope they come in late.

I prefer Jetbike seer councils because of mobility and more resilent with toughness 4 and 3+/4++ with ability to turbo boost. Yeah the foot council is a lot more killy with Yriel + Eldrad but if your serpent is destroyed your huffing it and Eldrad does not have fleet. Everyone has their own opinion here but thats just me.

Thank you Kirika for your comments. The point is to experiment with 2 Troop choices, and a Foot Council, to differ from my regular tournament list - as I said in my opening post - having a bike council would decrease my armour saturation.

O.K., shock horror - I realise I normally use Fire Prisms - and to make this a real experiment I'm using nothing I used before - how about double Council - or Banshee and Council? .

HQ/

Farseer: w/ Fortune, Runes of Warding (95)

Farseer: w/ Fortune, Doom, Stones, Spear (133)

8x Warlock: w/ 2x Embolden, 2x Enhance, (270)
3x Destructor
Wave Serpent: w/ BLs, Stones (145)

6x Warlock: w/ 1x Embolden, 1x Enhance, (228)
4x Destructor, 6x Spear
Wave Serpent: w/ BLs, Stones (145)

Troops/

5x Dire Avenger (60)

5x Dire Avenger (60)

Heavy Support/

Falcon: w/ EML, Holofields, Stones (180)

Falcon: w/ EML, Holofields, Stones (180)

Could swap Destructors on bigger council for another member, or Bright Lances on the Falcons - alhough EMLs are so I can fire the plasma plus Pulsar Lance if needed.

Could swap smaller council and thinner seer for Yriel and 10 Banshees.

Hmm, not liking double council - I think I'll revert to the first list - with removing two warlocks for another Enhance, and BLs on the Serpents.

For discussion - anybody like this?:

HQ/

Eldrad (21X)

7x Warlock: w/3x Embolden, 1x Enhance (205)

Wave Serpent: w/ EMLs, Stones (130)

Yriel (15X)

Elites/

10x Howling Banshees: w/ Exarch, Acrobat, (187) Executioner

Wave Serpent: w/ EMLs, Stones (130)

Troops/

5 Dire Avengers (60)

5 Dire Avengers (60)

Heavy Support/

Falcon: w/ EML, Stones, Holofields (180)

Falcon: w/ EML, Stones, Holofields (180)

Lovely modelling oppurtunites - Banshees Fortuned and Doomed, working with the Council for 30 Ork Boys/ Nob Bikers etc. - or solo for 9 Dead MEQs.

Or this:

Fortune Seer (85)

Fortune Seer, w/ Runes of Ward. (100)

9x Warlock: w/ 3x Embolden, 2x Enhance (270)

Serpent: w/ BLs, Stones (145)

9x Warlock: w/ 4x Embolden, 2x Enhance (275)

Serpent: w/ BLs, Stones (145)

Troops/

5x Dire Avenger (60)

5x Dire Avenger (60)

Heavy Support/

Falcon: w/ EML, Holofields, Stones (180)

Falcon: w/ EML, Holofields, Stones (180)

Win-draw loss...

I like the idea of a core of 3 or 4 troop transports with 2 prisms.

I think you need the 2 prisms as a good counter to hoards and a threat to the A 14 vehicles floating about.

So two prisms 230

3 Serpents: EML, Stones 405

Least cheezy: 2 TL Catapult bladestorm w 7 DA 256

1 10 DA with PW and Shimmershield 147
Attach Asurmen 230
Attach Eldrad 210

635 in vehicles
403in troops
440 in HQ

22 points to play with.


Minus the exploding yriel, Asurmen, Eldrad and a squad of dire avengers on a doomed target will do as much or more damage than a seer council and between defend and a rerolled 5+ invulnerable save, they should be as much or more resistant than the foot council.

This also ups your dire avengers to allow some dismount- bladestorm - mount and run to objectives instead of just riding around to objectives.

3 troop vehicles means that eldrad could fortune all 3 serpents if they are close enough and then you could manuever the whole bunch with rerollable cover saves.

The only mod I would like to fit in is 10 points per serpent to put a cannon on each. That gives you maximum hoard control with mobility as your 5 vehicles can all move 12" and fire all weapons if needed.

Sorry if this is harsh but...

I didn't ask for a new list, the purpose of the list is to experiment with a foot council, and two troop choices - and anything not in my regular list - as explained several times.

Asurmen is far overpriced for a true competitive list.

I don't like Bladestorming DAs - in a competitive environment they get munched next turn.

They are not as resilient as the council, they are poor at doing any damage in close combat, they are not that good at shooting - versus MEQs especially. Being Fearless is actually very poor - when you are a non-combatty unit.

I wanted to try without Prisms, and DAVU Falcons are more resistant than units that get out to go to objectives.

I regularly face nob bikers... and Obliterator spam - which would toast any vulnerable infrantry - Dire Avengers do nothing versus Nob Bikers, who have Feel No pain, and an armour save, invulnerable, cover...

Dire Avengers are very vulnerable having got out - no invulnerable versus ranged fire power.

I don't mind being so-called 'cheesy' - the battle cry of the unprepared - this is a competitive list, and anything goes.

Triple Fortuning can be very situational...

End Rant : Sorry for the sporadic bullet points but I was a little irate lol. Please comment on my list - sorry for being a jerk but I'm tired. I really didn't mean to offend you, alright .

Thank you, anybody, for any further replies.
Regards, Dark Fire

Not harsh... just followed the 1st list that had 2 prisms and was at work so just did the quick glance at the discussions.

Commenting on your list...

With no templates - destructor or prism, you are potentially going to get swamped by orks.

If you want to try it, how about a 3rd falcon with a small
destructor council? Fortune/doom farseer and 5 destructors. Let eldrad be your attacking council and use the 5 rerollable heavy flamers to munch the hoards.

Spear them and they can also substitute for a short ranged anti-tank unit with spear launching goodness.

The 3rd falcon would give you a hard cover for the two "vital" troop carrying falcons.

If you think the doom on the 2nd seer is overboard, I would spam mindwar and target the big nasties. Ork mobz - unless maxed - don't really like seeing two mind wars hitting it... they only have Ld 7 so you can target pain boyz, banner carriers, PK nobz...

It would certainly play different and be a great support unit to your eldrad council.

Hmm, thank you DA addict - currently I'm deciding to practice with DAVU units at 1000 points - so one of these lists will not see daylight for a little while.

Anyway - to your comments - how would I get the points? Or are you talking about the double council list? Or about the Banshee list?

What do you mean by 'Let eldrad be your attacking council'

Ok... I am lost on one of your acronyms...what is DAVU?

Inquisitor Dark Fire wrote:Pathfinders completely I'm afraid, even more so in this list. They are static, they do not really fit with a mech. force. There are so many units in competitive play that will destroy them easily, via special deployent - such as Snikrot, Drop Pods, Infiltrate, deepstrike, or via cover ignoring shots - seemingly most of the units in the SM codex and the new IG codex (i've seen a store copy ), flaming Obliterators etc.

But, at 95 points for regular Rangers or 120 points for Pathfinders, if they manage to do anything before your opponents more expensive unit spends time and detours away from other units to deal with them, they are worth it.

I was looking at your Howling Banshee list...

You lose Yriel, the banshees and their serpent for


2nd Farseer, 5 Destructor Warlocks with spears and then a falcon.

May be a tad point heavy but you could go cheap on the farseer with just fortune but I do think it would be nice to have that mind war. That would be a very different tactic from the norm. Zap the nasty sergeants with the power fists or the melta gun that threatens your vehicles and then let 5 destructors sort out the rest.

Losing Yriel does cut into your Eldrad attack force but the two councils working together should be good to take on orc nobz and the like... mindwar the banner and the painboy and Eldrad and company should have the upper hand on the rest. Hitting on 3s instead of 4s and no feel no pain.

I was looking at your Howling Banshee list...

You lose Yriel, the banshees and their serpent for


2nd Farseer, 5 Destructor Warlocks with spears and then a falcon.

May be a tad point heavy but you could go cheap on the farseer with just fortune but I do think it would be nice to have that mind war. That would be a very different tactic from the norm. Zap the nasty sergeants with the power fists or the melta gun that threatens your vehicles and then let 5 destructors sort out the rest.

Losing Yriel does cut into your Eldrad attack force but the two councils working together should be good to take on orc nobz and the like... mindwar the banner and the painboy and Eldrad and company should have the upper hand on the rest. Hitting on 3s instead of 4s and no feel no pain.

Alright... either triple post or lost the first two attempts.

I was thinking losing the banshees, serpent and yriel for
farseer, 5 destructor locks with spears and falcon.

The destructors are great hoard control and the idea of double mind war is intruging... drop the pain boy and then hopefully the waagh banner and even without Yriel, Eldrad and his council should have the upper hand on nobz that don't have FnP and you again have the upperhand in WS.

Alerian wrote:Ok... I am lost on one of your acronyms...what is DAVU?

Dire Avengers as a Vehicle Upgrade - buying a 5 man, 60 point unit of Dire Avengers to make a vehicle scroing - often more effective with a Falcon, than a Serpent. The Dire Avengers rarely get out - just sit in the Falcons and make it score.

@Fifty - I am not spending points on a unit that may just do something - get munched - by say, a drop podding tactical - and lose a Kill Point, 95/120 points of my force, and/or an objective whilst doing nothing.

Thank you for the triple post DAaddict . So basically the list in post eight right - but rejigged to put that council to something like: 5 Warlocks, 5 Spears, 4 Destructor, 1 Embolden (185) - and using the points saved to swap their serpent for a Falcon - and make the Larger Council 10 w/ 1x Enhance, 2x Embolden - or keep the 7/8 man council in the Banshee list - to keep Eldrad in the list.

I've theory built other *2 Troop Choice lists* - with no Council - or special characters - all though they're mainly anti-MEQ - something like: 'Tarch, Farseer, Serpent Banshees, 2x 8 Serpent Dragons, 2 DAVU Falcons - PM me if you want a look...

Inquisitor Dark Fire wrote:

Alerian wrote:Ok... I am lost on one of your acronyms...what is DAVU?

Dire Avengers as a Vehicle Upgrade - buying a 5 man, 60 point unit of Dire Avengers to make a vehicle scroing - often more effective with a Falcon, than a Serpent. The Dire Avengers rarely get out - just sit in the Falcons and make it score.
.

Thanks..I know the tactic, I just didn't know we had an acronym for it