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Ok, so I had something of a learning experience in a "Pitched Battle" last night, and I want to check to make sure that everything went down kosher. The scenario involved a Land Raider that started at the edge of its deployment zone, turned sideways. It:

-Turns forward. (3")
-Moves its full move (12")
-Deploys Terminators (2")
-Who have 1.5" bases (1.5")
-Who roll a "6" on their run move (6")
-Who assault (6")

For a total move of 30.5" in a turn. (Even a 1" run would have covered 25.5".)

I guess my questions are twofold:

1) Is every step of this accurate? (I'm pretty sure it all is, but I'm still a bit shocked.)

2) How does IG deal with Land Raiders in Pitched Battle? I can throw sacrificial squads in front, but a solid "run" move usually gives enough extra movement to set up multiple assaults. Especially since the IC can move so as to detach from the Terminators...

I'm not sure if you can assault if you run

Dave47 wrote:Ok, so I had something of a learning experience in a "Pitched Battle" last night, and I want to check to make sure that everything went down kosher. The scenario involved a Land Raider that started at the edge of its deployment zone, turned sideways. It:

-Turns forward. (3")
-Moves its full move (12")
-Deploys Terminators (2")
-Who have 1.5" bases (1.5")
-Who roll a "6" on their run move (6")
-Who assault (6")

For a total move of 30.5" in a turn. (Even a 1" run would have covered 25.5".)

I guess my questions are twofold:

1) Is every step of this accurate? (I'm pretty sure it all is, but I'm still a bit shocked.)

2) How does IG deal with Land Raiders in Pitched Battle? I can throw sacrificial squads in front, but a solid "run" move usually gives enough extra movement to set up multiple assaults. Especially since the IC can move so as to detach from the Terminators...

1) Shrike gives terminators fleet. They don't have fleet normally.

2) You have a few S10 guns and a few guns that roll an extra D6 for penetration. IG should be the army that finds destroying land raiders the easiest. Also terminators killing one squad then dying to lasguns doesn't seem that impressive.

I could be mistaken, or my group and I have been playing it wrong, but doesnt turning the land raider use some of its movement? The rest of the order of events seems honest enough, if not a bit scary, I suppose the one thing i wonder is do the bases of the termies have to be within that 2 inch deployment, or just the back of the base touching. If they have to be within they shouldnt get 1.5" out of their base size? or am I reading into that wrong..

onlainari wrote:1) Shrike gives terminators fleet. They don't have fleet normally.

Thanks! A follow up: Does he give it to them as a universal rule thingy, or does he need to be attached to the squad at the time?

2) You have a few S10 guns and a few guns that roll an extra D6 for penetration. IG should be the army that finds destroying land raiders the easiest. Also terminators killing one squad then dying to lasguns doesn't seem that impressive.

Yeah, the experience has made me take a second look at the Manticore. I landed lascannons and a Basilisk on that Land Raider and everything bounced, but it's hard to deny the power of Strength 10 Ordinance.

Deathevn wrote:I could be mistaken, or my group and I have been playing it wrong, but doesnt turning the land raider use some of its movement? The rest of the order of events seems honest enough, if not a bit scary, I suppose the one thing i wonder is do the bases of the termies have to be within that 2 inch deployment, or just the back of the base touching. If they have to be within they shouldnt get 1.5" out of their base size? or am I reading into that wrong..

p.67 of the little rulebook, just have to have their bases touching.


To the OP, spread your speedbump out to maximum coherency?

Dave47 wrote:-Turns forward. (3")

Incorrect. You may do this to get some distance but a Land Raider is not 6" longer than it is wide. I don't have the measurements of a Land Raider but my guess is that the gain would be 1-1.5"

Dave47 wrote:

onlainari wrote:1) Shrike gives terminators fleet. They don't have fleet normally.

Thanks! A follow up: Does he give it to them as a universal rule thingy, or does he need to be attached to the squad at the time?

The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Gwar! wrote:The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Yeah, I don't own the new SM book, but I think I really need to buy it. I keep hearing rules and thinking "That doesn't sound right," but I don't want to be a dick and grind everything to a halt to check whether Scouts really have a 2+ cover save.

Webbe wrote:Incorrect. You may do this to get some distance but a Land Raider is not 6" longer than it is wide. I don't have the measurements of a Land Raider but my guess is that the gain would be 1-1.5"

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! A unit (without Shrike) in a Land Raider cannot cover more than 24" in a turn. :-)

Dave47 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Yeah, I don't own the new SM book, but I think I really need to buy it. I keep hearing rules and thinking "That doesn't sound right," but I don't want to be a dick and grind everything to a halt to check whether Scouts really have a 2+ cover save.

Dude, ask them. if they dont want to, they are the cheating dicks, not you. And yes, scouts can get a 2+ cover save if , and only if, there is a ruin, Techmarine and they have camocloaks. 4+ Ruin Becomes 3+ with the Bolster Defence (Techmarine) rule which then becomes 2+ with the Camo Cloaks (Stealth USR)

Webbe wrote:

Dave47 wrote:-Turns forward. (3")

Incorrect. You may do this to get some distance but a Land Raider is not 6" longer than it is wide. I don't have the measurements of a Land Raider but my guess is that the gain would be 1-1.5"

*takes land raider from shelf, examines*

I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

Incidentally I'm a bit surprised how this works, if the marine player is going first then he set up first so all you have to do is not deploy anything directly opposite the land raider at the front of your deployment zone. If he sets up second, blast his land raider to bits with a hail of various lascannon death or a vanquisher, he'll have a hard time getting a cover save deployed like that and even an immobilised will be more than enough to throw a spanner in the works.

Admittedly this doesn't count for the occasions he steals the initiative but theres not much you can do about that at the best of times.

Gwar! wrote:

Dave47 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Yeah, I don't own the new SM book, but I think I really need to buy it. I keep hearing rules and thinking "That doesn't sound right," but I don't want to be a dick and grind everything to a halt to check whether Scouts really have a 2+ cover save.

Dude, ask them. if they dont want to, they are the cheating dicks, not you. And yes, scouts can get a 2+ cover save if , and only if, there is a ruin, Techmarine and they have camocloaks. 4+ Ruin Becomes 3+ with the Bolster Defence (Techmarine) rule which then becomes 2+ with the Camo Cloaks (Stealth USR)

Yup just got a TF cannon awhile ago and I'm going to place it and my scouts in the same ruin so that my scouts can pick out any leftovers from an enemy squad and get 2+ save.





-Orkishly

I'm not sure what anyone is referring to when you are talking about getting extra movement from 'turning' the Landraider. Movement is a little more simple that - measure your 12" from the Landraider from it's starting position. That is the farthest you can move, period. You can position your vehicle however you wish at the 12" mark. Therefore, you move 12", no more.

Pivoting vehicles is only done if you are NOT moving the vehicle for purposes of firing more weapons.

Models that disembark have to be WITHIN 2" of an access point. Depending on your gaming group, some people will let you measure from the hull intead of the assault ramp door. If you measure from the hull, you can have a total assault distance of:
12" move
just under 2" disembark
the 1.5 inch/40 mm base
6" run (with fleet)
6" charge
Total - just under 27.5 inches

I mention this because I was seeing a lot of sloppy Landraider movement lately, where they are gaining a LOT of extra movement that is not making my gaming experience very happy.

- Blackbone

Blackbone wrote:I'm not sure what anyone is referring to when you are talking about getting extra movement from 'turning' the Landraider. Movement is a little more simple that - measure your 12" from the Landraider from it's starting position. That is the farthest you can move, period. You can position your vehicle however you wish at the 12" mark. Therefore, you move 12", no more.

Pivoting vehicles is only done if you are NOT moving the vehicle for purposes of firing more weapons.

Models that disembark have to be WITHIN 2" of an access point. Depending on your gaming group, some people will let you measure from the hull intead of the assault ramp door. If you measure from the hull, you can have a total assault distance of:
12" move
just under 2" disembark
the 1.5 inch/40 mm base
6" run (with fleet)
6" charge
Total - just under 27.5 inches

I mention this because I was seeing a lot of sloppy Landraider movement lately, where they are gaining a LOT of extra movement that is not making my gaming experience very happy.

- Blackbone

QFT

if you are turning your model to gain movement distance you are trying (badly) to manipulate the movement rules and it is considered cheating by many people. it is a very gak thing to do.

you might as well be measuring from the front of the model at the start of movement to the back at the end of movement, which is clearly outlined as incorrect.

even so with a good fleet roll and sides deployed witin 27" of each other it is possible to assault on the first turn with shrike/landraider termies.

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

Doing it the way the OP described I think violates both the spirit and probably the letter of the rules as well.
My suggestion would be to make sure that they measure their maximum move distance from the side of the tank prior to making the turn.

The rest of the description seems to be legitimate.

Pivoting a vehicle on its center point prior to moving the model is perfectly legal, and does not affect the distance traveled by the vehicle ( page 57 ).

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

It's pertinent. Why would you ignore a sponson? It's part of the vehicle, and the vehicle must be entirely within your deployment zone.

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

I thought so too. The sponsons arn't part of the hull afaik.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

I thought so too. The sponsons arn't part of the hull afaik.

It doesn't matter. The rules say the entire model has to be inside the deployment zone, which includes sponsons and the like.

You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

Gwar! wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

I thought so too. The sponsons arn't part of the hull afaik.

It doesn't matter. The rules say the entire model has to be inside the deployment zone, which includes sponsons and the like.

That makes sense. It's not normally an issue for me. I don't mess around with shenanigans like deploying my LRs sideways. If an extra inch or so at the beginning of the game is the only way I can win, well, I don't think I should be playing the game at that point.

Yeah, and sometimes it's helpful to actually have the weapons pointed at the bad guys if you get immobilized too "Tactics" like this never really change the game as much as the person using them hopes they will.

Moncalcruiser wrote:You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

You can pivot, but you can't pivot for free. If the vehicle moves 6", and when you finally plop it down (after doing donuts, figure 8's, wheelies', or whatever else) it is farther than 6" away from where it began its move, you moved it too far.

whitedragon wrote:

Moncalcruiser wrote:You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

You can pivot, but you can't pivot for free. If the vehicle moves 6", and when you finally plop it down (after doing donuts, figure 8's, wheelies', or whatever else) it is farther than 6" away from where it began its move, you moved it too far.

All I have to say, is lol. Distance from the starting point means bugger all, its the actual distance travelled.

Gwar! wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Moncalcruiser wrote:You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

You can pivot, but you can't pivot for free. If the vehicle moves 6", and when you finally plop it down (after doing donuts, figure 8's, wheelies', or whatever else) it is farther than 6" away from where it began its move, you moved it too far.

All I have to say, is lol. Distance from the starting point means bugger all, its the actual distance travelled.

Isn't distance traveled defined by measuring from starting point to finishing point?

No, that's velocity. If you move in a Zigzag or round a corner say, you might end up only 3" away from your starting position, but have travelled 6". While it is true you cannot end up more than 6" away from your starting position without having travelled more than 6", I just wanted to correct the notion that it was somehow distance from starting position that determined if you can fire or not.

For example, you can move 3" Forward, Pivot 90 Degrees, then move forward 4". You'll end up only 5" from your starting Position, but have travelled 7", so you would count as moving at Cruising Speed, not Combat Speed.

Gwar! wrote:No, that's velocity. If you move in a Zigzag or round a corner say, you might end up only 3" away from your starting position, but have travelled 6". While it is true you cannot end up more than 6" away from your starting position without having travelled more than 6", I just wanted to correct the notion that it was somehow distance from starting position that determined if you can fire or not.

For example, you can move 3" Forward, Pivot 90 Degrees, then move forward 4". You'll end up only 5" from your starting Position, but have travelled 7", so you would count as moving at Cruising Speed, not Combat Speed.

Ah, I see what you're getting at (even though velocity is actually relative to time, but that's semantics and unrelated). You're point is absolutely correct, and if my opponent needs that extra 1.75" or whatever it was to make him/her feel better about their generalship, more power to them.

T3h Wikipediaz wrote:In physics, velocity is defined as the rate of change of a position. It is a vector physical quantity; both speed and direction are required to define it.

In this case "Speed" is not a factor of Distance and Time like in t3h real world, but a fixed movement amount

Did I mention Pancakes have Tiny Black Holes inside them? It's True! I tried to warn people in the Wikipediaz but they b& me ;(

Gwar! wrote:

T3h Wikipediaz wrote:In physics, velocity is defined as the rate of change of a position. It is a vector physical quantity; both speed and direction are required to define it.

In this case "Speed" is not a factor of Distance and Time like in t3h real world, but a fixed movement amount

Did I mention Pancakes have Tiny Black Holes inside them? It's True! I tried to warn people in the Wikipediaz but they b& me ;(

Right. Hence semantics. Since we don't measure speed in the 40k universe as a unit of distance over time, velocity does indeed mean simple displacement.

No wonder I always lose track of time at IHOP. Mmm... physics-flavored syrup.