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Hey Kids! Did you all sleep well? it's time for another trip to Gwar's! Magical Crazy Fun land of the IMAGINATION!

So, here is the problem:
Step 1) Units may embark on a non dedicated transport while in reserve.
Step 2) I Purchase a Squadron of 3 Valkyries and also 3 Infantry Platoons and place one squad from each platoon in the Valkyries.
Step 3) ...
Step 4) The game breaks and turns into a quivering pile of man jelly?

Hey, wait what are you doing? No, No meds! No! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


And I'm back

But to get super srs for a minute, seriously, WTF happens now? Platoons all roll at once, so if I roll the 3 dice for the platoons and 2 fail and 1 succeeds, I now have to move them on, which means I have to move on the one Valkyrie, which means I have to move the other 2 on as it's a squadron, which I think means the other 2 Platoons would have to walk on now as Platoons always walk on now...

Or have I just finally gone utterly Monkey-Poo, Grade A Bananas?

Gwar! wrote:But to get super srs for a minute, seriously, WTF happens now? Platoons all roll at once, so if I roll the 3 dice for the platoons and 2 fail and 1 succeeds, I now have to move them on, which means I have to move on the one Valkyrie, which means I have to move the other 2 on as it's a squadron, which I think means the other 2 Platoons would have to walk on now as Platoons always walk on now...

Calm down.

If the valks are in a squadron, they roll together

if the platoon is together, you make one roll for them.

if a unit is in a transport, you make one roll for them both.

combine all of these, and you make one roll for all the units in transports, due to the transports being in a squadron. all either come on together, or dont.

Gwar! wrote:Or have I just finally gone utterly Monkey-Poo Grade A Bananas?

Yes.

Actually, its an interesting idea.

The problem with the normal reserve rolls is that this breaks them all.

A platoon is one unit from reserves and is deployed as one. Once deployed they break into separate units.

If you put one of those into a transport, non-dedicated, by the rules for the platoon it must be deployed with the platoon.

You then have to follow the rules for the squadron and deploy the other two Valkyries with them, then the other platoons deployment rules follow, and they must be deployed.

I'd be ok with flying the valk borne units on all together or NOT (and holding them off) depending on what the roll for them was, the other elements of the platoon would come on when they made their roll, before, after, or all together with the airborne.

It's seems reasonable and follows, I have no idea if that is RAW though.

Neat question.

Okay I want to make Gwar's original idea more complex. Let's say I take 2 infantry platoon's. And I have 9 valkryies/vendetta's in three different units. If I put one squad from each platoon in one of each of the valkrie squadrons what happens?

Does that mean that as long as one squadron of valkries comes on the table, everything comes on the table?

I think it would mean whatever you put in the valkyries would fly on when the squadron reserve roll was made.

Pretty simple.

I'm gonna practice glaring and putting my Orks back in my carrying case if this becomes common knowledge. Thanks, Dwar! for inventing the new TFG move.

warpcrafter wrote:I'm gonna practice glaring and putting my Orks back in my carrying case if this becomes common knowledge. Thanks, Dwar! for inventing the new TFG move.

Firstly, it's Gwar!

Secondly, if you are gonna pack up over something silly and small like that, You're not someone I would like to play.

Thirdly, I don't even play Guard, I play FURRY SPESS MAHRINEZ so your anger and bile are misdirected.

Fourthly, I am a mean, bitter person. I am going to do my best to spread this as much as I can now.

I think the way I would resolve this is to say a unit in a transport becomes part of the transport roll instead of whatever it belonged to before. so all 3 valkyries arrive together, and the rest of the platoons remain a seperate reserves roll.

Also Gwar!: The wolf lord looked out over his wolf brothers wolfishly, his proud wolf standing at his side, this was thier wolfday, this day they would wolf thier opponents into wolfblivion.

The RAW suggest to me that when you put something into reserves inside a transport that only a single roll is made for that whole unit.

So if you have a Squadron of Valkyries and you place one IG unit from three separate Platoons into each Valkyrie you would then be making one giant Reserves roll for the whole schbang.

If you make the roll then all 3 platoons and the Valkyrie Squadron would then arrive. This is the only way to play in which no rules are broken, and therefore I think it is the only way it can be played.



With that said, I think the way that most people will end up playing this is that a single roll would be made for the Valkyrie Squadron with embarked units and then regular Reserve rolls will be made for the rest of the platoons separately. . .but I could be wrong.

So, what do you all predict? Are we going to see 9 Valkyrie lists that abuse this to bring in 6 Platoons on T2 with Astropaths (or even better, get lucky and not have anything shot at for 2 or 3 turns, and if the enemy has a Officer of the Fleet, Well that's just golden) or do you think GW will change the rules?

Just to pose the counter argument...

Rule 1. Each platoon must be deployed simultaneously.
Rule 2. Each squadron must be deployed simultaneously.
If you roll for the platoon, you'll end up breaking rule #2. If you roll for the squadron, you'll end up breaking #1. Therefore, you can't split platoons across squadrons because it would require breaking deployment rules.

No that doesn't work, because the rules say I can deploy any squad I want in any non-dedicated transport I want in reserves pre deployment. Since nothing in the codex stops me from following the rules permitting me in the BRB, I can.

If the rest of the rules about deploying reserves mean it is impossible to deploy without forcing others on, so be it.

Now, I have just had a nasty thought. Isn't his like the situation of the Necrons going through a Monolith Portal that isn't there yet? Would you have to roll for each one, and if each and every dice do not say you can come on, you cannot come on? Or would it be like the Dark Eldar Webway rule, where if you roll to come on, but cannot come on because the transport didn't come on, you just count as coming on as soon as available?

Hold Up I'll summarise this so it's understandable lol.

(For this Example I will be using 3 Squads of Valkyries with 3 Platoons Spread so each Valkyrie has a squad from each Platoon in it)

Possible Situation #1:
1) When you roll for reserves, you must roll one dice for each Platoon and one for each Squadron of Valkyries.
2) You roll all the dice.
3) All but Platoon #1's Roll says "Move on"
4) Since Platoon #1 Cannot move on, all 3 Valkyrie Squadrons cannot, as each has a squad from Platoon #1 that cannot arrive, which means the other Platoons cannot because Platoons do not arrive piecemeal.
5) Therefore, in order for the Platoons and Valkaries to arrive, all the reserve dice must be successful. If one is a failure, nothing can move on.


Possible Situation #2:
1) When you roll for reserves, you must roll one dice for each Platoon and one for each Squadron of Valkyries.
2) You roll all the dice.
3) Three Dice Succeed, Three Dice Fail
4) As three of the Platoons/Units have passed their reserve rolls but cannot arrive, they remain in reserve until they are able to.
5) Therefore, next turn, you only roll 3 Dice for the ones who failed the previous turn, if they all pass, everything moves on, if even 1 fails, they remain in reserve.
6) Roll reserve dice for any Platoon/Squadron that has yet to pass. Repeat every turn untill all have passed their reserves.
7) Once ALL of the Platoons/Units have Passed their Reserve rolls, they come on together.

Gwar! wrote:So, what do you all predict? Are we going to see 9 Valkyrie lists that abuse this to bring in 6 Platoons on T2 with Astropaths (or even better, get lucky and not have anything shot at for 2 or 3 turns, and if the enemy has a Officer of the Fleet, Well that's just golden) or do you think GW will change the rules?

I don't know.

You never know how tournaments will rule, so building a strategy around something that can get shot down at the whim of a tournament judge is always iffy.


Besides, I don't know how much of a real advantage it is. Yes, you could theoretically ensure that all your units arrive from Reserve at the same time but for the most part Guard relies on getting as many rounds of shooting as possible to kill the enemy before they get close. This would only give the enemy 1-2 turns to move up close to the Guard board edge. Yes the mech elements of the arriving Guard will get a ton of shots off but then the enemy will be right up in the Guard army's grill, assaulting what they want to assault.

I could be wrong but even if tournaments start ruling that this is allowed I don't know that it is such a boon that we'll see it all over the place.

Aye I can agree with that. The main use for it I can think of is in Objective missions, where you come in Turn 5 and Swarm both HQ's or take 3 Objectives (since U can capture even in the vehicle) and try and dislodge any enemies. It will take God Like rolling to kill all of the guard in 2 turns to win, so the Guardsman is guaranteed a draw, possibly a win, and most certainly a 0 for Sportsmanship

P.S. I Summarised the 2 Situations I brainfarted, what is your take on them? I think that if the first one is "correct" we WILL be seeing a lot of it, since you have to pass all 6 rolls at once, which means most likely T4 or T5 Arrival.

~cough~Ninja Tau~cough~

Gwar! wrote:Aye I can agree with that. The main use for it I can think of is in Objective missions, where you come in Turn 5 and Swarm both HQ's or take 3 Objectives (since U can capture even in the vehicle) and try and dislodge any enemies. It will take God Like rolling to kill all of the tau in 2 turns to win, so the Tau is guaranteed a draw, possibly a win, and most certainly a 0 for Sportsmanship

I do not see this happening, but like Gwar and Yak, I said up front its how it would be played.

I seem to recall being called less than intelligent by the dakka IG brain trust when bringing this question up for clarification in the IG Codex rumor threads a couple of weeks back.

Am I to take it that GW didn't give clarity on this issue?

I was looking at it from mixing CCS with Storms and regular or vet platton for a nasty backfield strike. Was told that this would never happen and somewhat patronized for even asking the question.

I haven't seen the book yet. Will be looking at it tomorrow. At that time I will start to be actually informed and will be able to participate in the debate.

Yet another example of the fact that the writer of the IG codex is a GW nooby and doesn't know the rules that well...

Nice one willydstyle. Subtle enough to where the intended target is definitely unclear and in question.

Maybe you've missed your calling. With writing like that you'd fit in at GW codex developement team just fine.

focusedfire wrote:Maybe you've missed your calling. With writing like that you'd fit in at GW codex developement team just fine.

Agreed.

BTW focusedfire, I apologise, I didn't realise you had brought it up. I don't see why they would be so hostile, perhaps because it was based off rumours rather than cold hard codex? But in any case, It does prove a quandary. It seems to me that the Dev team didn't write the IG codex with the 5th edition rulebook at all in mind, but some magical v5.5 Rulebook in the future, since it brings up situations that have never come up before, such as the Different Barrage Weapons in 1 squad, and this aforementioned Valkyrie nonsense.

@Gwar!-No problem or worries.

This question came after I had dared to state that I felt that the stormtroopers were priced fairly when considering what they could and that there would probably be a use for them when we got to see the rules. So by this point I was already getting a lot of patronizing tones if not direct insults.

Oh well.Sometimes going against the herd provokes anger. This was when a lot of the IG regulars were beginning to nerd rage/lamant that this new codex sucked. I was just trying to maintain a level of positiveness by pointing out that we didn't have the rules yet.



About them writing this for a future rule book.
I'm beginning to agree with Augustus about V6 BRB being written in the codices as they come out.

Its funny, V5 is the best ruleset GW has written yet and it seems that GW is out to outdate/break this Rule Book in record time. I fear that another codex or two with unresolved issues as major as this could make the game nigh unplayable.

Gwar! wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Maybe you've missed your calling. With writing like that you'd fit in at GW codex developement team just fine.

Agreed.

BTW focusedfire, I apologise, I didn't realise you had brought it up. I don't see why they would be so hostile, perhaps because it was based off rumours rather than cold hard codex? But in any case, It does prove a quandary. It seems to me that the Dev team didn't write the IG codex with the 5th edition rulebook at all in mind, but some magical v5.5 Rulebook in the future, since it brings up situations that have never come up before, such as the Different Barrage Weapons in 1 squad, and this aforementioned Valkyrie nonsense.

Don't forget the fact that you pay 110 points for a T5 command squad upgrade that hardly ever gets to actually use that T5. Also the question about whether or not a Valkyrie can outflank with a non-scouting unit embarked. Also using mixed artillery squadrons with extra-accurate-along-with-extra-inaccurate barrage weapons. Etc. Etc.

I just don't think that it was written for some "version 5.5" I just think the writer didn't know rules, and tossed in a bunch of stuff that seems cool until you try to figure out how it's supposed to interact with the rules as they exist now.

-BLEH Double Post, sorry -

focusedfire wrote:I'm beginning to agree with Augustus about V6 BRB being written in the codices as they come out.

I don't thing GW will make a 6th edition rulebook anytime soon. What they MIGHT do however is nick what WotC did back when D&D was actually good, which is fess up and say "OK, you got us, we fethed a few things up, we're sorry, we'll fix it" and make Warhammer v5.5 which is the same as 5 but clears a few things up, adds in errata and changes a few rules to fit with the newer situations that have come up like the Barrage+Different Weapons.

Of course, I'd like to see them update all the Legacy Codex's first, but that's just me being a bitter Space Wolf player while I can before my shiny new broken codex comes out

Gwar! wrote:I don't thing GW will make a 6th edition rulebook anytime soon. What they MIGHT do however is nick what WotC did back when D&D was actually good, which is fess up and say "OK, you got us, we fethed a few things up, we're sorry, we'll fix it" and make Warhammer v5.5 which is the same as 5 but clears a few things up, adds in errata and changes a few rules to fit with the newer situations that have come up like the Barrage+Different Weapons.

Of course, I'd like to see them update all the Legacy Codex's first, but that's just me being a bitter Space Wolf player while I can before my shiny new broken codex comes out

Haha, as an Eldar and Chaos player I definitely have a bit of Phil Kelly Codex envy

So let's assume that Yakface's interpretation (1 GIANT Reserves roll) is correct, how does this impact units with different special rules, like a normal Infantry platoon and a Vendetta that Outflanks?

sourclams wrote:So let's assume that Yakface's interpretation (1 GIANT Reserves roll) is correct, how does this impact units with different special rules, like a normal Infantry platoon and a Vendetta that Outflanks?

That one is easy. Assuming it IS one big reserves roll and not the other scenarios presented, you declare pre-game that the Valkyries/Vendettas are in reserve and going to outflank, when the reserve roll is passed, you move on the Outflanking Squadrons with the units inside from the side edge, and the rest from your board edge. They are all coming on at once, so it satisfies the Platoon Rule.

yakface wrote:
You never know how tournaments will rule, so building a strategy around something that can get shot down at the whim of a tournament judge is always iffy.

You do at Adepticon. Just sayin.

Xenith wrote:If the valks are in a squadron, they roll together

if the platoon is together, you make one roll for them.

if a unit is in a transport, you make one roll for them both.

combine all of these, and you make one roll for all the units in transports, due to the transports being in a squadron. all either come on together, or dont.

I don't think you can combine things to make one reserve roll to rule them all and in the confusion bind them.

What has to happen is that one or other of these rules will over-write the other. Like the various occasions that used to happen when a model had a skill only to be hit on a 6+ in combat and fought a mode that always hit on a 3+. Except its not quite simple enough to roll off since some of the possible results don't work.

Firstly the Valkyrie squadron is a unit, one entity for reserves and must maintain coherency. Breaking them up interferes with the core rules of 40K so its a bit of a no-no.

The platoon is one unit for the purposes of reserve rolling when seeing when the unit enters play. Breaking them up only tells their bonus reserve rule to bugger off so its much less of a problem.

My theory is rather boringly that being in a transport belonging to a separate force org slot will simply make those infantry squads subject to the reserves rule for being inside a transport. In essence you won't ask if the unit turns up, you only check if the transport turns up and the transported unit goes where-ever the vehicle goes. Thats why passengers in a Valkyrie don't stop it outflanking because they don't have scout - they aren't outflanking: the transport is.
Similarly the passengers aren't turning up from reserve, the transport is.

The Valkyries would make separate reserve rolls from the infantry platoons, turning up with their passengers independently.
The Platoons would make their normal reserve rolls and enter play with all eligible units that capable of doing so.

I think of it less as Rulebook overrules Codex and more as Rulebook has some rules that the Codex doesn't overule because it doesn't specificly state to overrule them. IE, theres nothing telling you to throw the rule for transported units away do it remains as normal.

Gwar! wrote:Or have I just finally gone utterly Monkey-Poo Grade A Bananas?

No, you're just a bad bad man, stop trying to break 40K. Although I do find it entertaining...