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Should I issue one of the members of my highest command squad a medi-pack? 30points for feel no pain to the entire squad... Is it worth it? Thanks.

It's highly situational. But my general advice would be "probably not."

There are too many Strength 6 weapons out there, and the same 30 points that buy a medipack can buy two bodyguards, which are a more reliable way to keep your commander alive. Or else you can just count on screening / a Chimera to save you, and spend the 30 points on an advisor. The advisor many only add one wound to the unit, but he also does some very potent stuff.

My HQ will include Strakken (with a priest), so that I have at least one heavy meele unit around. I will be taking Medkits with it, just so that they survive that much longer. A unit like that can go toe to toe with a Carnifex, and will rip it a new one too.

Liquidwulfe wrote:My HQ will include Strakken (with a priest), so that I have at least one heavy meele unit around. I will be taking Medkits with it, just so that they survive that much longer. A unit like that can go toe to toe with a Carnifex, and will rip it a new one too.

But for how many points?

270 points. This includes a bodyguard, medpack, carapace armor, and a priest.

This may seem like a lot, till you realize you have a command squad who is a serious threat to anything on the table that gets too close (including a squad of Nob bikers, of which strakken will probably kill 2 nobs a turn by himself).

Liquidwulfe wrote:270 points. This includes a bodyguard, medpack, carapace armor, and a priest.

This may seem like a lot, till you realize you have a command squad who is a serious threat to anything on the table that gets too close (including a squad of Nob bikers, of which strakken will probably kill 2 nobs a turn by himself).

He's good, but I think that's optimistic. That requires 4 of 5 hits on 3+, 4 of 4 wounds on 3+, and no 5+ Cybork invulnerable saves. 1 is more likely. I think the general answer to the OP's question is: Yes, if you're investing a lot in the squad.

Liquidwulfe wrote:270 points. This includes a bodyguard, medpack, carapace armor, and a priest.

This may seem like a lot, till you realize you have a command squad who is a serious threat to anything on the table that gets too close (including a squad of Nob bikers, of which strakken will probably kill 2 nobs a turn by himself).

hehe... a Fortuned Avatar would beg to differ with that statement..he would roll through that 270 point squad like it was Jello

Biophysic wrote:He's good, but I think that's optimistic. That requires 4 of 5 hits on 3+, 4 of 4 wounds on 3+, and no 5+ Cybork invulnerable saves. 1 is more likely. I think the general answer to the OP's question is: Yes, if you're investing a lot in the squad.

You forget the priest, and Furious Charge with Counter Assault.

He gets 5 attacks, Hits on 3+ with a reroll, wounds on a 2+, and then gets the cybork save. ~2.4 wounds from Strakken. Add in the priest, and you have 4 unsaved wounds on average.

Considering 3 biker nobs with PK's and a Doc costs over 300 points...

Liquidwulfe wrote:

Biophysic wrote:He's good, but I think that's optimistic. That requires 4 of 5 hits on 3+, 4 of 4 wounds on 3+, and no 5+ Cybork invulnerable saves. 1 is more likely. I think the general answer to the OP's question is: Yes, if you're investing a lot in the squad.

You forget the priest, and Furious Charge with Counter Assault.

He gets 5 attacks, Hits on 3+ with a reroll, wounds on a 2+, and then gets the cybork save. ~2.4 wounds from Strakken. Add in the priest, and you have 4 unsaved wounds on average.

Considering 3 biker nobs with PK's and a Doc costs over 300 points...

Furious Charge does not stack with Counter Assault to my knowledge. Counter Assault just says that you get +1 attack from charging, you do not count as charging (therefore triggering Furious Charge).

So say you get 5 hits with a priest's re-rolls. that's 3.33 wounds, even with no saves, they're probably all going to different Nobs, so you don't actually kill anyone. If your opponent had all the Nobs with the same equipment, it's still only one Nob down. The priest won't live to strike. He's a 1 wound WS3, T3, 4++ save independent character. Some Nob will direct attacks against him and that will be the end.

Furious charge is 'in a turn in which the unit assaults', so doesnt go with countercharge...

Biophysic is correct. Furious Charge and Counter Attack do not strike.

It sounds like you are trying to turn this squad into a great counter assault unit...something that it will never be. It will do decent against average assaulters, but true dedicated assault units will still eat it for breakfast, spit it out, and then eat its leftovers as a light snack.

For example:
The Avatar (as I already mentioned)
Seer Council
Banshees
Genestealers
Nobs
30 Slugga boyz
ANY BT assault unit
Death Comany
Assault Termies of any variety
And the list continues....

Basically, the statement that they are a threat to ANYTHING is naive to say the least. Such a unit will only be a serious threat to average assault units.

Alerian wrote: Such a unit will only be a serious threat to average assault units.

Which is really okay for the Guard. It's a great perk to be able to finish off a unit of marines, or put that last wound on an MC, or kill of the last couple of assault troops, or do damage to anything still locked in combat on your turn. I think Straken is a great choice if you build your army around him, you just need to be aware of the limitations. He's a counter-attacking unit, that makes your other units into non-trivial counter-attacking units. This gives a guard army a certain tactical flexibility it wouldn't otherwise have.

Xenith wrote:Furious charge is 'in a turn in which the unit assaults', so doesnt go with countercharge...

Except that Counter Attack says "...+1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

Dont forget that units like the Avatar and those Nobs will be eating serious shooting death before the charge. A battlecannon hitting a group of nobs can thin them down a fair bit.

i like the idea of your straken unit w/ priest, and at firtst glance i second guessed your interpretation of the counter attack/furious charge rule.

now that i have read and refreshed my memory, RAW indicates that yes they do stack

Liquidwulfe wrote:

Xenith wrote:Furious charge is 'in a turn in which the unit assaults', so doesnt go with countercharge...

Except that Counter Attack says "...+1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

Dont forget that units like the Avatar and those Nobs will be eating serious shooting death before the charge. A battlecannon hitting a group of nobs can thin them down a fair bit.

Yes, they get a +1 attack bonus exactly as if they charged. It says nothing about getting other charge bonuses. It says nothing about "counting as" charging. Trust me, I wish you were correct, because he would make platoon guard really nasty, but I don't think you are.

NO...they do not stack...period.

You get +1 attack from Counter Attack exactly as charging, but you do not get furious charge, because it is a different ability than counter charge, and it requires you to ACTUALLY be charging to get the bonus. The only "assaulting" type of bonus gained from COunter Attack is +1 attack...nothing else.

NO stacking. This has been discussed at lenght in YMDC.

Having tried Medi-Paks with my hq's (and platoon hq's) I can say that in most cases, they won't help you. You need to be able to take an armor save (not cover save) for FNP to even start to work. Against Bolters, Tau Pulse weapons and flamers the AP5 is gonna get ya killed while the medic is still looking in his pak for something to heal you. In most close combat, you might get to use it, but if its terminators with any weapon loadout, your squished. Thirty points is alot to pay for something that you're not going to get to use most of the time. I'll probably still take em even if they aren't going to help much. It just seems right to have a medic in your platoons.

I agree that for the points, an advisor would probably work better for most people. I haven't tried a bodyguard yet, but I think that they would be a better option for the points than the medi-pak.

Captain Antonius wrote:You need to be able to take an armor save (not cover save) for FNP to even start to work.

This is not true in 5th edition. Power weapons/fists, Instant death, AP 1 and 2, rending, ect. dont allow saves. Tau pulse weapons, Bolters, and flamers all allow FNP to be used.

I think the Med Pack becomes worth if when the Squad size get's larger, If your running a Squad with the 3 advisor and 2 body guards, the med pack will have a lot of use, especially when the Chimera they ride in get's destroyed. You can have Straken, and Kell in the unit for hand to had beats and a Preacher with 4++ and Feel no pain is kinda tough (IE he could survive, with some luck).

Penal legions.

Blob squads with commisars

Armoured sentinels

(possibly) techpriests & servitors.

You either want mobility (scouts/outflank/infiltrate - as there isnt an assault vehicle for IG) or robustness to resist counter-firing before a charge.

Company/platoon command squads dont really get either. Why bother?

This is not true in 5th edition. Power weapons/fists, Instant death, AP 1 and 2, rending, ect. dont allow saves. Tau pulse weapons, Bolters, and flamers all allow FNP to be used.

Really?! Guess I'm gonna have to go back to the rule book and make sure I know what I'm talking about. If this is the case (which it probably is) I'll probably change my opinion. Thanks for the clarification.

I would shell out the 30 points for a medi-pack. The command squad is not an assault unit. The command squad is the brains of your guard army barking out orders each turn to juice your army. The 4+ save is better than flack armor and saves you the expense of purchasing carapace armor. Flak armor is pretty much crap as there are so many guns that ignore the 5+ save. I just wish that my BA could include FNP in the honorguard... I which switch over from VAS in the shake of a lamb's tail.

G

I would probably pay for both carapace armor and a medi-pack. 4+ armor save is practically exponentially better than a 5+ armor save. Two 4+ saves are hot... gurdsmen really need every advantage you can bring to the table.

G