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Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

How many people in YOUR group are still having problems grasping this concept? I know there are a couple in mine who are always asking if they can shoot such and such model. It's getting annoying. Now granted there are a few times when you might want a second opinion on TLOS, but these guys are still constantly asking if they can see through a particular piece of terrain, and the like. The irony is, one or two of em are people I distinctly remember had a problem with the abstracted Area Terrain rules in 4th.

Is TLOS that hard of a concept, or am I just playing with a few REALLY dull tools?

Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






You've got some morons on your hands. If you cannot understand a REAL LIFE concept, they have issues.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Agreed
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




No. VA USA

Perhaps they are being polite and asking if they can see the model, so as not to assume they can and then have someone say" Hey, I specfically put it there so it can't be seen.." I've run into more of those types than just the "durrrr" types.

A woman will argue with a mirror.....  
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

two_heads_talking wrote:Perhaps they are being polite and asking if they can see the model, so as not to assume they can and then have someone say" Hey, I specfically put it there so it can't be seen.." I've run into more of those types than just the "durrrr" types.

Nope, not this. It's:

Them: "Hey can I see through this piece of terrain?"
Me: "If you can see the unit you can shoot it, just be sure to check for cover."
Them: "Yeah but can I see through this terrain?"
Me: "Bend down and look. Can you see the target?"
Them "Yes, but I don't know if I can see through the terrain."
Me "<sigh> If you can see the unit you can shoot it. regardless of terrain."
Them: Confused look
Me:"Yes, you can see through the terrain." *hangs head knowing they still don't get it*


Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in za
Junior Officer with Laspistol





South Africa

Well if my 8 year old cousin can grasp this concept and they can not,well them I am sad for you.

"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."-Groucho Marx
 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






two_heads_talking wrote:Perhaps they are being polite and asking if they can see the model, so as not to assume they can and then have someone say" Hey, I specfically put it there so it can't be seen.." I've run into more of those types than just the "durrrr" types.


No, you are wrong.

ALWAYS assume the other person is an absolute tool, brain dead fething moron with NO ability to process information correctly or rationally.

More often than not, in ANY situation, you will be correct.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Deff Dread red Edition wrote:Well if my 8 year old cousin can grasp this concept and they can not,well them I am sad for you.


An 8 year old will have an easier time adjusting to a change in rules than someone
much older (say, someone who has always played with Area Terrain).

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think the fourth edition terrain heights and area terrain concepts confused a lot of people. Also, don't forget about Warmachine/Hordes, were models block LOS for the same or smaller base size.

I think the reason some people are having trouble with it is because there is no restriction to LOS. Most games have some abstract restrictions (like 40k Fourth, WM, etc.) and they keep thinking that there must be a reason they can't see something - not a reason why they can.

I haven't had a problem with it, but having played LotR for the past three years, I was used to it. Honestly though, the first few LotR games was odd because that clump of woods that blocked LOS to your Land Raider in 4th ed 40k - you could now see between the trees and plunk some orks hiding behind the same towering pines.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







I have seen a bigger TLOS problem.

Alot of players think there are NO restrictions to LOS. I've seen guys trying to shoot through their own units in front of the shooters, then through a blocking unit of mine to same height models. They claim that they can do that, and you get a cover save, which is incorrect.

If you can't see it, you can't shoot it.

I've deliberatly criss crossed models to block LOS several times and my opponents have argued it.

I've seen a Nid player shoot with gaunts through a full gaunt unit at guardsmen on the other side. They could see? Really?


No Comment 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






KeithGatchalian wrote:
I've seen a Nid player shoot with gaunts through a full gaunt unit at guardsmen on the other side. They could see? Really?



Guardsmen are taller. We can shoot their smug human faces off.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

True line of sight isn't a hard concept. It's just implemented poorly. What I hate even more is the thought that a milimeter tall hedge gives a cover save because it block the other models foot.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Tough Treekin






Birmingham - England

Really I understood the area terrain and terrain height level concept really well in 4th and I thought it was a much better system than TLOS. Everything was clearly define before the start of the game so you knew what you could and could not see through/shoot through.

TLOS has caused many arguments between people i've seen playing claiming that they can see units partially when they can't, also with the model cover system its much more open to abuse, the criss-crossing example its prominent one allowing units to get cover saves when they really shouldn't.

Also Kieth, remember if you can see the target unit through the breaks in the unit in front you can shoot them and the enemy unit recieves a cover save, it works both ways. But in principal I agree alot of people take liberties with TLOS.

When you give total control to a computer, it’s only a matter of time before it pulls a Skynet on you and you’re running for your life.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Lordhat wrote:How many people in YOUR group are still having problems grasping this concept?


Considering that the clunky 5th Ed LOS rules allow you to hit and kill things that:

A). You can't see.
B). You're not in range of.
C). All of the above.

... can you really blame them?

   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Halifax, Nova Scotia

@OP: It works that way in Fantasy, 4th, WM (as has been mentioned already).

Given that 40K is such an exception, I don't blame people for thinking in area terrain terms - intuitively it makes more sense. We all know 3 trees isn't a "Woods" - but that's what compromises the GW kit. Being able to see through a forest that extends almost 1/2 the range of a standard rifle doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Me, I just use a laser pointer - eliminates almost all of the guessing when the side of their model is lit up in red.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/11 23:23:37


 
   
Made in ca
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





Inactive

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lordhat wrote:How many people in YOUR group are still having problems grasping this concept?


Considering that the clunky 5th Ed LOS rules allow you to hit and kill things that:

A). You can't see.
B). You're not in range of.
C). All of the above.

... can you really blame them?


I agree with HBMC , and yes im one of those dumb people that have questions about LOS ( T-T )

because i feel , unless the terrain is a solid piece of wall, there is always ways to *see through it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/11 23:32:06


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Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





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LunaHound wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lordhat wrote:How many people in YOUR group are still having problems grasping this concept?


Considering that the clunky 5th Ed LOS rules allow you to hit and kill things that:

A). You can't see.
B). You're not in range of.
C). All of the above.

... can you really blame them?


I agree with HBMC , and yes im one of those dumb people that have questions about LOS ( T-T )

because i feel , unless the terrain is a solid piece of wall, there is always ways to *see through it.


Technically light does curve and certain spectrums are likely passing through the terrain on your table at all times. So in a way thats true.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

Asmodai wrote:@OP: It works that way in Fantasy, 4th, WM (as has been mentioned already).

Given that 40K is such an exception, I don't blame people for thinking in area terrain terms - intuitively it makes more sense. We all know 3 trees isn't a "Woods" - but that's what compromises the GW kit. Being able to see through a forest that extends almost 1/2 the range of a standard rifle doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Me, I just use a laser pointer - eliminates almost all of the guessing when the side of their model is lit up in red.


I'd like to point out that NONE of the other players have played TT wargames besides 40k, and most of them didn't play more than 10 games of 4th. Area terrain 'thinking' shouldn't be a problem.

Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Saltillo, MS

Lordhat wrote:How many people in YOUR group are still having problems grasping this concept? I know there are a couple in mine who are always asking if they can shoot such and such model. It's getting annoying. Now granted there are a few times when you might want a second opinion on TLOS, but these guys are still constantly asking if they can see through a particular piece of terrain, and the like. The irony is, one or two of em are people I distinctly remember had a problem with the abstracted Area Terrain rules in 4th.

Is TLOS that hard of a concept, or am I just playing with a few REALLY dull tools?


If someone has a problem grasping the concept, we'll put a laser pointer on the end of the barrel or next to it to see..

Lots of guys got shot through the hedgerows after D-Day..
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

It seems to have died down, but at one time there were so many "can I see this" threads in YMDC that I suggested to the mods to make an "if you can see it you can shoot it" sticky at the top of the page. So no, I don't think it's anything special to your group of players.

Where I've been playing, however, everyone seems to be pretty on-top of the rules, and I've honestly had waaay less rules debates regarding 5th ed LoS than 4th ed LoS. 90% of players played 4th ed LoS rules wrong, whereas 90% of players seem to play 5th ed LoS rules right.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
 
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