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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






There are two astoundingly obvious misprints on page 94 of the new Codex : Imperial Guard. Under the Ogryn Squad entry, they are base listed at 130pts, and to have more Ogryns, they are listed at 40pts. Obviously, they meant these to be 80pts and 25pts, respectively.

EDIT : Added info.

3rd Guard Ed. Ogryns :

25pts
Ws-B-S-T-W-I-A-L-Sv
4-3-5(6)-4-3-2-8-5+

4th Guard Ed. Ogryns :

40pts
4-3-5-5-3-2-3-6-5+

Rippergun got a boost to strength, but lost all AP. Picked up +1shot.

Gains : 1 in T, 1 in A

Losses : 1 in S, 1 in I, 2 in Ld

More losses than gains I see there. Yeah, they picked up some other nice Special Rules, but you also have to remember they were obtusely over priced before anyhow, worth at least 5-10pts less than they were priced, damn near nobody ever even bothered buying the model, even fewer played them in a regular game! I have owned mine for... over eight years now, have fielded them maybe four times and they always were one of the first squads to come off the board and had otherwise no effect on the battle. Now? Slightly tougher to bring down.

As for the S5 Rippergun, oooh, they're an assault unit! They'll fire it, what, twice? You get ALL armor saves! Even Orks! I wouldn't be too worried about it v. average models. Only Guard should be worried about it really.

So yes, I tihnk my Ogryns are horribly priced, 30pts would be preferable for what they have gained, as hadhq suggested, but 40? No, far too much for far too little that can only get around the battlefield in the IG's weakest tank, considering they are the bullet magnet unit of the Guard, they won't last long in a Chimera, and will have to cross probably at least 12-18" of terrain, which is 2-3 turns of shooting on them, before they get to engage, assuming you're not getting everyone else's assault units (and besides Tau, they are all still reasonably superior) heading right for them. Good distraction, but at the cost of 130-410pts, I would rather have more aggregate Guard, which is 2-8 full squads! My oh my, 20-80 more Guards men, that is 20-80 wounds for the same price as 9-30 wounds. 40-240 lasgun shots compared to 9-30 Rippergun shots, 46-192 Guardsmen close combat attacks on the charge compared to 13-41 Ogryn close combat attacks on the charge, and all for about the same price

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/12 23:47:52


Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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Skinnattittar wrote:There are two astoundingly obvious misprints on page 94 of the new Codex : Imperial Guard. Under the Ogryn Squad entry, they are base listed at 130pts, and to have more Ogryns, they are listed at 40pts. Obviously, they meant these to be 80pts and 25pts, respectively.
Listen, this is not appropriate for YMTC.

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er...and WHY would that be?!

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Nurgleboy77 wrote:er...and WHY would that be?!
Because he thinks it's overpriced.

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Skinnattittar wrote:There are two astoundingly obvious misprints on page 94 of the new Codex : Imperial Guard. Under the Ogryn Squad entry, they are base listed at 130pts, and to have more Ogryns, they are listed at 40pts. Obviously, they meant these to be 80pts and 25pts, respectively.




And the errata correcting it can be found where?




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Actually it was completely for jest. But it would be awesome and hilarious if INAT FAQ or an errata did that. Also, Gwar, no, they are not overpriced, they are insultinglyobviouslypainfullydisgracefullyretardedly overpriced, and yes, I pulled a German dialect rule to combine all those words together intentionally.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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Skinnattittar wrote:Actually it was completely for jest. But it would be awesome and hilarious if INAT FAQ or an errata did that. Also, Gwar, no, they are not overpriced, they are insultinglyobviouslypainfullydisgracefullyretardedly overpriced, and yes, I pulled a German dialect rule to combine all those words together intentionally.
VVVVVVVV Off Topic is Down there VVVVVVV

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germany,bavaria

Gwar! wrote:
Skinnattittar wrote:Actually it was completely for jest. But it would be awesome and hilarious if INAT FAQ or an errata did that. Also, Gwar, no, they are not overpriced, they are insultinglyobviouslypainfullydisgracefullyretardedly overpriced, and yes, I pulled a German dialect rule to combine all those words together intentionally.
VVVVVVVV Off Topic is Down there VVVVVVV







Move it to discussion ?


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OK moving to discussion as its not about a rule interpretation. Hold on

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Part of me holds out for the Obliterator style fix.

It was painfully obvious that they were too much in Pete Haines' version (why wouldn't they be, he played them) at natural T5, so after the Summer 13th Crusade, it was amended.

Here's hoping they amend in FNP, or a price break, after Planetstrike.

But I'm not holding my breath.
   
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germany,bavaria

Skinnattittar wrote:There are two astoundingly obvious misprints on page 94 of the new Codex : Imperial Guard. Under the Ogryn Squad entry, they are base listed at 130pts, and to have more Ogryns, they are listed at 40pts. Obviously, they meant these to be 80pts and 25pts, respectively.

Need a discount?

I have to disagree.
No way for 25.

New :
-toughness +1
-attacks +1
-shots +1

a lot of +1 here.

Maybe 35 pts if fair priced, 30 if featured by GW.



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In an army with nothing with T3 (T2 for the Ratlings) having a unit with T5 and 3W is 40pts each too much? No, you need a Str10 weapon to kill them out right. Other wise they're as good as (base squad) 9 guards men with Str5 and T5 and they only start to degrade as a unit after 3 wounds are taken. Oh and they've each got a Str5 shotgun ... And your complaining?
   
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Tri wrote:In an army with nothing with T3 (T2 for the Ratlings) having a unit with T5 and 3W is 40pts each too much? No, you need a Str10 weapon to kill them out right. Other wise they're as good as (base squad) 9 guards men with Str5 and T5 and they only start to degrade as a unit after 3 wounds are taken. Oh and they've each got a Str5 shotgun ... And your complaining?


Hi, you must be new here.
   
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First time straying into 'General Discussion' yes ... but really I don't think they're over priced ... I say this an Eldar player that fields Wrathgaurds at 35pts each ... they last most games unless some ones really going all out to kill them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/12 23:06:02


 
   
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London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)

I thought it would be simple by now.

if you dont like a unit, no one is making you take them.

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3rd Guard Ed. Ogryns :

25pts
Ws-B-S-T-W-I-A-L-Sv
4-3-5(6)-4-3-2-8-5+

4th Guard Ed. Ogryns :

40pts
4-3-5-5-3-2-3-6-5+

Rippergun got a boost to strength, but lost all AP. Picked up +1shot.

Gains : 1 in T, 1 in A

Losses : 1 in S, 1 in I, 2 in Ld

More losses than gains I see their, hadhq, but nice attempt at being observational. Yeah, they picked up some other nice Special Rules, but you also have to remember they were obtusely over priced before anyhow, worth at least 5-10pts less than they were priced, damn near nobody ever even bothered buying the model, even fewer played them in a regular game! I have owned mine for... over eight years now, have fielded them maybe four times and they always were one of the first squads to come off the board and had otherwise no effect on the battle. Now? Slightly tougher to bring down.

As for the S5 Rippergun, oooh, they're an assault unit! They'll fire it, what, twice? You get ALL armor saves! Even Orks! I wouldn't be too worried about it v. average models. Only Guard should be worried about it really.

So yes, I tihnk my Ogryns are horribly priced, 30pts would be preferable for what they have gained, as hadhq suggested, but 40? No, far too much for far too little that can only get around the battlefield in the IG's weakest tank, considering they are the bullet magnet unit of the Guard, they won't last long in a Chimera, and will have to cross probably at least 12-18" of terrain, which is 2-3 turns of shooting on them, before they get to engage, assuming you're not getting everyone else's assault units (and besides Tau, they are all still reasonably superior) heading right for them. Good distraction, but at the cost of 130-410pts, I would rather have more aggregate Guard, which is 2-8 full squads! My oh my, 20-80 more Guards men, that is 20-80 wounds for the same price as 9-30 wounds. 40-240 lasgun shots compared to 9-30 Rippergun shots, 46-192 Guardsmen close combat attacks on the charge compared to 13-41 Ogryn close combat attacks on the charge, and all for about the same price!

Yes, Tri, hadhq, and JD, I can see very much how Ogryns are WAY better now, and are a totally good entry in the Guard codex, and how there isn't a single possible reason why I shouldn't be proposing they get a price fix. I mean, just look how superior they are! How can you NOT want a unit that is only, on average, 30% as efficient as Guardsmen, and is 10% as flexible? Ogryns have been awesomely fixed!

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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Nashville, TN

You should really watch your tone, Skinnattittar.

Have you even used them yet? I thought as you do until I used them to fill points in a game vs. Nids. My opponent had 2K and I brought 1850. Iwiggled some things around and brought 6 Ogryns. They won me the game.

They received a charge from 12 Hormagaunts and ran them off (out of synapse) then proceeded to kill off a whole squad of Genestealers threatening my lines, with shooting!

For a very "squishy" army they make a great anvil or counter charge unit. Another 250 pts in Guardsmen would have gotten the crap kicked outta them.

40 pts. seems to be GWs "it may be crap or it may be glorious" points value. TH/SS Termies? GOLDEN! Chaos Spawn... Worst unit in the game! Be glad they fall in-between these and not with Spawn.

My suggestion, try before you cry.

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

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No, I haven't gotten a chance to use them yet, admittedly I have only gotten to play one battle with the new Codex, but they are statistically not much different from their previous edition versions, whom had good points, and very bad points. When Ogryns (2nd AND 3rd) were used where they were good, they did great, just about anywhere else, they usually got mopped up in a turn of shooting and or assault. T5 will do wonders to improve them, but the loss of Ld will severely hurt, S5 v S5(6) doesn't help, I2 means even a Guardsmen will attack before them, ect.. So, while you are right, they would make a good for assaulting into an assault, if they don't get their chance to strike, and at I2 that is highly likely, they will be a bit in the cold.

EDIT : [hit the submit button before I could finish]

When the Codex released, there wasn't a single total happy word from any IG players I know about Ogryns. I will still want to play test them, but I think 20-80 more Guardsmen will do more damage than you have considered, Guard are bad in assault, but volume more than makes up for their singular lack of ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 00:57:20


Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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Dude! There's a misprint in the Storm Trooper entry as well. It says they're 16 points each rather than 10. And that their guns are only 18" range. How the hell did their proofreader (singular) miss that????



And no matter what others have said, Ogryn are not balanced, or useful, or good, or 'correct'. They haven't been 'correct' since 2nd Ed, much like Commissars and Storm Troopers have never been useful since 2nd Ed. As I've said a dozen times already in other threads, when Grey Knight Terminators are a cost-effective alternative to Ogryn, something is very very wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 05:00:17


   
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I put my Storm Troopers on the table against Chaos for the first time last week, and, well, they only got one volley in, but they killed one guy. Ten Stormtroopers with Hot-Shot Lasguns and Plasma, and they only knocked down one Commi-Marine. Wasn't really sure what happened there, but for about 200pts, I was expecting a bit more.... I'll give them a few more goes, though, see how they are. Ogryns, though, they are just worse off than before....

What p*ssed me off the most about the new Codex? They changed just about EVERYTHING but they didn't really FIX anything, nothing that people were really complaining about. A lot of good points, and a definite improvement, don't get me wrong, but... we really didn't need two Hellhound varients, nobody was saying "you know what we need? More crap in our codex." The Vanquisher, on its own, good vehicle (kinda). But why is it MORE points than a normal Russ? You can't fire alternate rounds like you used to, you can only fire that templateless anti-armor round, that for some reason, isn't even AP1! What?! Anti-Armor +5pts, lose your pie-plate, BS3 rolling, supposed to be the Bane of ranged armor, and it is AP2? My exact expression at that moment "... yeah, kinda saw that coming...."

This could go on for several pages, there really wasn't a need for a completely new codex like this one, just fix the old one, drop in some of the old vehicles, stuff like that..... Not, drop my command bubbles and give me Orders.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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So...two people who haven't played with them (and one who doesn't even own the codex) say they are useless? That's enough for me then...wait what?!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 06:30:38


"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

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Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
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And one person who has played one game with them says they are perfect? You know, I held off about 6,ooopts of Chaos Space Marines with 2,5oopts of Imperial Guard and taking only 25% casualties, all on my lonesome, in a mega-battle. Oh! With the new Guard Codex I nigh tabled a Chaos player and keeping most of my troops on the board! Another time, previous codex, I nearly tabled a Blood Angles player, left him with only an immobilized, weaponless, and shaken Land Raider, took about 50% casualties. Did pretty much the same thing to an Ork player, too.

I have used Ogryns before, the new ones aren't much different stats wise, math still applies to them, my outlook is grim for the new ones as their price increase is the majority difference.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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I've played two games with orgyns and they are great for tying units up. With T 5 and 3 wounds, they can take a lot of punishment in CC and shooting. Power weapons or rending mean next to nothing to them, and the only easy way to remove them is with Str. 10. Few things can instakill them, and T5 helps with large quantities of attacks. Get about 7 of them and they're actually a really good unit. The only issue is... they're nearly 300 points. They can eat most tanks and are brutal against combatants with low armor saves. (They're great against orks) The only two issues is that they themselves are easy to tie up with high armor save units, and if they do lose combat (usually against high armor save units) their LD and initative are pretty bad. If you could only give them a priest... Ogryns aren't a bad unit, just cost more than they should or are in dire need of a power weapon.

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Nurgleboy77 wrote:So...two people who haven't played with them (and one who doesn't even own the codex) say they are useless? That's enough for me then...wait what?!


Don't you dare try that on with me.

You know who I am, and most on this site knows my experience with Guard. And that's not me waving it around to impress you, that's simply stating fact. And it doesn't require 2 brain cells to see that Ogryn are a horribly ass-rapingly overpriced unit. Anyone with a modicum of experience with this game can infer the worth of most (not all) units in the game from looking at their stats (including options and points cost) and then making comparative judgements between them and other units.

And in this comparison, Ogryn are a metric f**kton of FAIL.

And while I don't own the physical Codex, I certainly have a copy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/13 08:37:28


   
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They are over costed compared to another army, however internal points balance wise, for the guard, they are worth more than they would be to other armies.

In the army of T3, the T5 monster is king. Sort of. Yes they are overpriced, but not a metric f*ck ton.

Finall - HBMC you are openly admitting to copyright violation? nice one.
   
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Imperial Admiral






Ogryns are the same points as last codex but improved.

T5 is a huge boost. Not being insta-killed by powerfists makes them much more survivable and makes it much more likely that they can win combat. As for their leadership, lets not forget that they now have stubborn. Add a priest to the unit and you have one of the few things in the guard codex that can reliably fight an enemy off an objective.

And why the whining about the chimera? It's a fantastic transport. AV12 on the front, two decent guns, a massive fire point and cheap as chips.

Also, I can't believe people are whining about the Vanquisher. 8+2d6 penetration and it can fire the lascannon as well? That's 21% of immobilising or destroying AV14. A multimelta at short range is 22% I'll take an AV14 tank with a multimelta that shoots right across the table for those points. The gun may not be AP1 any more but it can fire the lascannon as well which makes up the difference. It's lost the alternate shot but got much more available due to squadrons.
   
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Scott-S6 wrote:Ogryns are the same points as last codex but improved.

T5 is a huge boost. Not being insta-killed by powerfists makes them much more survivable and makes it much more likely that they can win combat. As for their leadership, lets not forget that they now have stubborn. Add a priest to the unit and you have one of the few things in the guard codex that can reliably fight an enemy off an objective.

And why the whining about the chimera? It's a fantastic transport. AV12 on the front, two decent guns, a massive fire point and cheap as chips.

Also, I can't believe people are whining about the Vanquisher. 8+2d6 penetration and it can fire the lascannon as well? That's 21% of immobilising or destroying AV14. A multimelta at short range is 22% I'll take an AV14 tank with a multimelta that shoots right across the table for those points. The gun may not be AP1 any more but it can fire the lascannon as well which makes up the difference. It's lost the alternate shot but got much more available due to squadrons.


Fail alert. Priest are almost useless in ogryn squads. They receive no bonuses from righteous furry

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You don't really want to put any IC with them ...
A Commissar will murder some one if you fail a Moral test.
A Priest is ignored
Yarrik might do ok so long as you don't lose a fight (re-rolled to hits aren't bad)
Primaris Psyker is probably the best bet as he gets a force weapon + Nightshroud.

If you want a unit that will is better then Ogrins the only way you're going to do it is with A techpreist five servitors + 1 or more minstorum preists ... In this units favour its cheaper and it gets 6 Str 8 power eapon hits

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 10:19:41


 
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:They are over costed compared to another army, however internal points balance wise, for the guard, they are worth more than they would be to other armies.

In the army of T3, the T5 monster is king. Sort of. Yes they are overpriced, but not a metric f*ck ton.

For the Guard, they're worth nothing. They contribute absolutely nothing to the game for any army that takes them. What they excel at is what Guard does not need.

I've tried Ogryns time and again, and no matter how I try to spin it, the verdict is always the same: UNFIT TO LIVE.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 10:32:13


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Funny how this is the newest topic in 3 days.
   
 
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