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So I've been out of 40k for a long while, and my interest is only periphery - but I have to wonder did the IG just become the natural counter to the Shoota/Loota Ork horde list?

Hellhounds that ignore cover, where you can take more of them, and enough pie plates that effectively can't help but hit a lot of Boyz, and the extra shots they get from orders - did they really cut down on the Horde of Boyz being worth while as a decent army?

The Psyker Battle Squads seem to rape lootas as well (unless they are sitting in wagons), from the reports I've read.

PBS rock Lootas.

LR Eradicator & Griffions tear holes into mobz.

And Chimeras are hard for Orks to kill once Lootas are removed.

However, 30 strong Mobz still are pretty solid and Battlewagons are more popular now.

Virtually all armies are going to need to make some changes to deal w/ the new IG, but I can't see any army that is completely boned (well perhaps Necrons...).

Yes they have. You don't even need hellhounds. The IG players in my gaming group have begun to abuse weaken resolve. They don't leave home without psyker battle squads (or two). I used to play a mainly footslogging army or a balanced list (boyz on foot&kanz w/ battlewagons) but now I'm almost completely mechanized. I have to put my lootas in a battlewagon now if I want to use them. I've stopped using warbikers and stormboyz. Hell, if my brother wants to 'play' with my non-fearless units (like bikes and stormboyz), he puts weaken resolve on them and then shoots them with ratlings to keep them pinned in one place for a while. It's ridiculous.

You're going to see a whole lot of 'weaken resolve' crutch lists, just like you see double lash whip crutch lists.

Yes, PBS are scary to Lootas; However, for PBS to hurt Lootas, they have to go first. The Lootas outrange them by 12", so if the Orks go first their will be some dead Psykers very, very fast...even if they are hiding in their Chimera.

Plus, if the Orks have BWs filled with Nobs or boyz plus the Lootas, then the PBS only has 1 turn to do its damage before the Orks are assaulting.

My Orks are far more scared of the simple raw firepower available to the new gaurd, than they are of the PBS. I would much rather see my opponents spend points on PBS than on more blast/template/cover ignoring nastiness.

The trick with the new gaurd is that they have the the tools to beat any list...however, putting all of those tools in a single list is not very easy, if not impossible.

admiralpartyfoul wrote:Yes they have. You don't even need hellhounds. The IG players in my gaming group have begun to abuse weaken resolve. They don't leave home without psyker battle squads (or two). I used to play a mainly footslogging army or a balanced list (boyz on foot&kanz w/ battlewagons) but now I'm almost completely mechanized. I have to put my lootas in a battlewagon now if I want to use them. I've stopped using warbikers and stormboyz. Hell, if my brother wants to 'play' with my non-fearless units (like bikes and stormboyz), he puts weaken resolve on them and then shoots them with ratlings to keep them pinned in one place for a while. It's ridiculous.

You're going to see a whole lot of 'weaken resolve' crutch lists, just like you see double lash whip crutch lists.

and Daemon Blood Crusher crutch lists
and Space Marine Assault Terminator & Stern Guard crutch lists
and Ork Nobz Bikers (and Lootaz before 'weaken resolve' IG crutch lists) crutch lists
then of course there are those Nid Monster Creatures crutch lists
and the Tau BroadSide crutch lists

I agree emphatically with Alerian.

The IG strengths are not found in trick combos like Nob bikers or poorly conceived rules like Lash of Submission, but in huge, affordable firepower available in every single FoC selection. IG will crush opponents with huge numbers of high strength wounds from range followed up by even more from Chimera phalanxes backed by massed meltagun fire from BS4 Veterans.

That's not to say the PBS is bad. It's unbelievably good. That and 32 points for Inquisitor + Mystics will be the two gimmicks found in every single list because of how cheap they are. But they're just icing on the cake.

These answers nearly warm my 40k blackened heart.

Mainly because I HAD the models in boxes to build the shoota/loota list that I devised when the Ork dex was first leaked...but then sold them all to finance my stints into WHFB.

Sounds like a Mechanized Slugga style list is probably better all around...which is basically my original army (derived from 3rd Ed KoS).

Voodoo Boyz wrote:These answers nearly warm my 40k blackened heart.

Mainly because I HAD the models in boxes to build the shoota/loota list that I devised when the Ork dex was first leaked...but then sold them all to finance my stints into WHFB.

Sounds like a Mechanized Slugga style list is probably better all around...which is basically my original army (derived from 3rd Ed KoS).

Mechanized lists are becoming the new rage, because they are strong against Lash/PBS (and other lists).

Just remember that IG have plenty of firepower to take out light armor at range, so getting some Battlewagons wouldn't hurt.

The previous Theory List I tested had one super Nob Biker Squad that zoomed out in front of 3 Battle Wagons (to provide a No-Deepstrike/Pod Anti-Melta Zone on the Wagons). Each Wagon was loaded with 20 Boyz, with a KFF Mek sitting in the center BW giving them all 4+ cover.

The Nob Bikers are what really made it work.

I believe orks are still strong, even against IG... Especially in dawn of war. The Hellhounds and nova cannons do cook greenskin nicely though! Mmmm... Greenskin Brisket!
Nob bikers are still a pain to kill off, green tide is still viable because that many boyz is hard to kill for any army, guard included.

This actually has me wondering if the PBS by its very existance makes itself obsolete?

If the metagame shifts to Mech lists as a response to PBS/LASH (and many other reasons. really mech is the Shaznet anyway)

Then maybe I can avoid having to worry about converting the bastards and just skip to the post PBS/Lash metagame of mech dominance?

I hope so, I dont really like the PBS themewise, model wise or conceptually. But im also tired of taking fun theme built lists to tournaments and loosing that one game that would have made the difference every frakking time!!!

bigtmac68 wrote:This actually has me wondering if the PBS by its very existance makes itself obsolete?

Heh, Psyker battle squads targeting psyker battle squads make psyker battle squads obsolete!

Even then, PBS have S9 templates they can kick around.

Eventually mounted squads come out, then PBS will do their thing.

...mounted squads? i.e. in vehicles?

I've been playing mech IG a ton lately, and I've played a lot of games against foot orks.

This may sound outlandish at first but bear with me...

Even without PBS, guard just eat horde orks lunch. We set up so many test games with lootas and PBS to see exactly how to counter the PBS with orks. A lot of people are touting "just shoot the PBS chim and its all over."

In my repeated testing to see if I could peace out 30 lootas in one turn, I consistently killed around 12-15 lootas per turn with a combination of executioners, multi-lasers and hydra batteries. The fact that I was able to spread those wounds onto two lootas and "boo" them off the table just made it embarassing. But what if I just spent those PBS points on more long range shooting, and just killed of a loota unit on turn 1 the old fashioned way.

The foot mobs get hurt by PBS as well, but really, once you've gotten them down to 10 models, is it really necessary to weaken their resolve? Just the additional 300 points of units added to a list that doesn't take dual PBS, could muster up enough kill to just wipe them out.

PBS and lash have nearly obsoleted themselves already. Everyone is in a transport, fearless, stubborn or doesn't care if they get lashed as they are MSU.

I'm probably dropping down to one PBS, and an ork player with lootas can have them. Unless they are in a battlewagon I really have no fear of foot orks at all.

Orks are going to drop down the fifth edition power curve. They don't handle armor well, and mech builds are in vogue due to Fifth Edition rules and cheaper transports for SM, CSM, and IG.

Kungfuhustler wrote:...mounted squads? i.e. in vehicles?

We all know that Rough Riders are really closest homosexuals. They need to just come out and get it over with, we'll still love them.

dietrich wrote:Orks are going to drop down the fifth edition power curve. They don't handle armor well, and mech builds are in vogue due to Fifth Edition rules and cheaper transports for SM, CSM, and IG.

Most armies still have a very hard time with Lootas, and Lootas wreak transports. The question is, will IG force Ork players to move away from Lootas? Will IG make that big of an effect on the metagame? Or will people still gear up for fighting MEQ?



I completely agree that one PBS is enough, it will be there when you can punish certain armies, and wont drain to much of your traditional firepower.

Of course, I am also debating on running a couple small PBS (perhaps even just the 60 pt 4 psyker squad) in addition to one large (mounted) 8 psyker squad. -4 is enough to make it very likely for even LD10 to fail. The only downside is KPs.

This is an ork-centric thread...

Maybe we can do a little talking about what orks have that IG doesn't like.

The TL-rokkit buzzsaw deffopta has been something I have been hating since I went mechanized. They are a little bit crappy in the KP missions, but are a real PITA in the others. They don't really drop to multi-lasers (takes 4 multi-lasers to kill one deffkopta), so you either have to get meltaguns onto them, or put your support elements into them.

lootas in battlewagon. Now we need a vendetta to get that side armor shot. That means that if IG don't go first, they'll have to wait fo the vendie to show up on turn 2 or 3. Thats a couple turns of loota fire.

TL rokkit buggies under KFF. 3 rokkit buggies get around 2 strength 8 hits per turn. staying out of short range melta, but in range to pick off chimeras, and making them put multi-lasers and hydras into your 4+ cover.

boarding planks. The worst thing you can do when in a mech versus mech mirror match is be the first guy to get out of your transport. Orks can't crack heavy armor to save their lives from range. But with this handy dandy 5 point upgrade, each vehicle that has a power klaw in it has what is essentially a 15" range strength 9 assault 4 gun that has a special rule that states it hits rear armor.

anybody got any more?

Cheers for that post Shep, it was interesting!
Hadn't considered boarding planks before. I would point out that trukks are a hard sell in fifth due to the lack of hiding places, and the new combat rules. I might give my 6 trukk army a wirl with some alterations and see how if fares.

Shep, I love your posts

With Ramshackle rules, my trukks are basically a short armored transport. Once they drop their green load, it's off to Tank Shock or Ram until the Trukk is no more.

Lootas in Battewagons are scary for Mech since the can smash Chimeras and Vendettas apart. Getting around to the side armor quickly is crucial for the IG player. I hadn't considered the Buggies before though, that is an interesting idea.

I'm very scared of first turn charging Buzzsaw Deffkoptas with my Mech list.

Looking through the Orks Codex it seems like mechanized under KFF protection is good against IG. I didn't really see anything else that stood out to me as a great weapon against IG in particular, but I only glanced through it real quick.