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According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

ChaoticOrkz wrote:According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

Ork + kultur

Is he still enjoying the attention of a BT crusade and a old black clad man with a claw?

@Corpsesarefun: Remember, that was an INVASION of armageddon. The orks only outnumbered the armed imperial forces. If you start counting civies, Imperium wins the pop race hands down.

@Manchu: lol! QFT!

Err.....if the Imperium fought the Orks then i think it would be a great time to strike for CSM and the traitor guards.

Your talking about humans having morale and stuff, but there HUMAN, that means a glory wanting commander will put the Imperium and his men in danger to get the glory. An example would be in "Legion" he was going to attack the Alpha legion and destroy two primarchs and half a legion by bombarment cause he didnt get the glory.

Yarrik...A thousand times worse than you in-laws...DUN DUn DUNNNNNN!

Well, bearing in mind the Imperium has the full force of;

Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, Alien Hunters
Ordo Mallus, Deamon Hunters
Ordo Hereticus, Witch Hunters, Sisters of Battle
Adeptas Arbites, Local world law enforcement
Adeptas Astartes, Space Marines
Adeptas Mechanicus, The Machine Cult, and their Titans
Imperial Guard
The Ecclesiarchy, The Church
The Emperor himself

I don't think they have a chance, you don't think if the entire orc army was assaulting Terra that he wouldn't be woken up?

Im sure he's a powerful enough Psyker that he doesn't even need to leave his throne, He could just fight like Ravenor, but with a greater force.

Orkeosaurus wrote:The gretchin will destroy your chairs and/or people who sit in them, and create a golden new of age of freedom and equal heights!

Also, if the Emperor is so smart why did he get beat up?

Can't beat the emp.
he sacrified his health in an attempt to save his son.

Equal heights = gretchin and ratlings ally ?

More like he tripped and fell and blamed his dead son for it.

Free your minds, sheeple! You punks got bullets in ya heads!

Xav wrote:Err.....if the Imperium fought the Orks then i think it would be a great time to strike for CSM and the traitor guards.

Nuaghty Nuaghty
This is one on one, Xav. And as it is the Imperium seems to be holding its own against the whole humieverse.

1hadhq wrote:

ChaoticOrkz wrote:According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

Ork + kultur

Is he still enjoying the attention of a BT crusade and a old black clad man with a claw?

Well, If the big G took out a squadron of baneblades and Yarrick before, he shouldn't have too much trouble taking them on while he conquers the rest of the sector

before the imperium there were orks, and after the imperium is gone there will still be orks

in the grand scheme of things, green is best

Huffy wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

ChaoticOrkz wrote:According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

Ork + kultur

Is he still enjoying the attention of a BT crusade and a old black clad man with a claw?

Well, If the big G took out a squadron of baneblades and Yarrick before, he shouldn't have too much trouble taking them on while he conquers the rest of the sector

Must be a very silent conquest.
Not heard of him for years.
Maybe hes only a ork-myth?

Manchu wrote:@Mekniakal--shenanigans!

In ten thousand years, the Imperium has suffered two schisms: the Horus Heresy and the Age of Apostasy. (The orks experience more division than that in each passing moment.)

I would point out that this should read that humanity has suffered two *major* schisms. If you count every Ork debacle then one should equally count every planetary governor who falls to Chaos - which seems to happen quite regularly in lots of fiction.

1hadhq wrote:@ thor665:

Yes id did restrict guard to 5k per regiment, where the IG codex stated 120.000 strong regiments as possibility.
Also reduced SM to "battle strength", not assumed "more than 1000 ".

Theoretically there's no such thing as a space marine chapter with "more then a 1000" excepting perhaps Space Wolves or some other non-Codex compliant chapter.

1hadhq wrote:
On the other side, worked out ork numbers with the estimated 3k per horde, not the mentioned 600-3000.
Dropped the lower numbers for several types of ork formations too and generalized them to 3k.

Handed them an advantage.

But still, armageddon is a stalemate.

I will note I agreed with you about the numbers at Armageddon - I didn't argue them at all. i simply pointed out some inconsistencies between them and the 5th Core Rulebook. I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me here...could you restate what you're getting at with some of this because I'm too dumb to follow.

1hadhq wrote:
The whole concept of outproducing the imperium wont work.
Orks are bound to the planet , whilst the imperium reinforces the planet per space travel.

From the Armageddon stuff you quoted (heck, by the sheer fact we're talking Armageddon) I'm going to presume your idea of claiming Orks lack the ability for interplanetary travel is just an obvious bit of silliness.

1hadhq wrote:
Orks want to win per higher rate of new recruts?
Do not forget orkz start as ferals. Can't resist to fight amongst themselves.
Ignore both factors and orks should have overrun the galaxy long ago.
But they didn't.
Because losses count.

So you're agreeing that the only reason the Orks haven't overrun the galaxy is because they start at a low tech level and have a lot of infighting...but you strongly disagree that they outproduce humans and (I suspect) disagree that they have better technology. Again sir, I'm not sure what you're getting at, it feels to me like you're debating in circles but maybe I'm just being dumb. Could you clarify this for me?

1hadhq wrote:
Numbers from codices or BRB or fluff are fine. Extrapolated numbers are not.

Unfortunately the fluff doesn't give any numbers for how many Orks occupy a planet. Neither have they given numbers for Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or any other race save humans. Yet, we can extrapolate that Eldar don't have a lot of population from information given in books, and we can likewise extrapolate that the Ork population is immensely superior to that of humanity. I understand you want a hard number, but that number doesn't exist (as I've admitted) but can be easily shown to be extrapolated as much *much* larger then the human population (also, as I and others have shown in some previous postings). If you have specific issues with how we extrapolated then please tell me what those issues are and I can explain further.

Also, in the nature of exact numbers some of my earlier discussions about the numbers at Armageddon (1.3 million Guardsmen for a planet that's tithed 50 million a year) was to point out how GW's hard numbers are, to a large extent, quite unreliable.

I believe as long as the almighty Ghazgkull is around the orks will win. Hes really the only one who is able to rally a large enough amount of orks to stand a chance against the imperium. Now I dont think Ghazgkull is what makes them so deadly, since without ghazgkull they would just follow the next biggest ork lol, but hes the only one that brings the un godly numbered hordes.

I would note, in the grand scheme Ghaz is more of an Imperial bogeyman then a true Ork leader of note. The Arch Despot and Arch Arsonist have both had substantially more success versus the Imperium then ol' Ghazzy (though I will note Ghaz is very good at keeping a lot of constant wars going, which the Orks are pretty stoked about)

Thor665 wrote:I would point out that this should read that humanity has suffered two *major* schisms. If you count every Ork debacle then one should equally count every planetary governor who falls to Chaos - which seems to happen quite regularly in lots of fiction.

This only seems like a fair point. First of all, 99% of what BL puts out is from the Imperial POV. Secondly, a good chunk of that (even HH series aside) is about the Imperium fighting itself. Third, the governors you are talking about actually have something to rebel against. Division is a racial characteristic of the Orks. You can count on one hand the *major* schisms of the Empire. You can count on your other hand the *major* unifications of the Orks.

Orks are dumb but they know if they unite there get alot more fighting then they would fighing each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orks are dumb but they know if they unite there get alot more fighting then they would fighing each other.

Ah! What I was looking for.

Codex: Orks, 3rd Edition, Page 2 wrote:Orks are the most widespread and warlike race of aliens in the bloodstained galaxy of the 41st millennium. From the depths of the core to the distant ghost stars beyond the galactic rim burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another.

So, there you have it. The orks hold more planets and have a greater population than humanity. They would destroy humanity if unified. They're never going to unite, as a race, without some very extreme circumstance.

@Manchu

A reasonable rejoinder, but I think my logic holds and is not duplicitous in any way shape or form. You seemed to be implying that Orks have a lack of cohesion and lots of infighting and then mentioned the Imperium had only two. I was attempting to put into perspective the level of Ork infighting, Orks as a whole have never had any great schism, they just have lots of localized brawling to keep the lads in fighting trim.

I suppose one happens to then have to dictate what constitutes a major unification for the Orks. I presume you don't mean any given Waagh, since those happen quite frequently. The only other major unifications I can think of are the ones described in fluff after Eye of Terror that tend to lead to great expansion of Ork empires and the crushing of whole sectors under an unassailable green tide. These "super Waaghs" (I think fluff calls them Waa-orks...which seems stupid to me) are usually signaled by the creation of vast fleets of Gargants.

However, they say those happen every thousand years or so - which would be far more then one hand's worth of occurrences in the course of Ork history (much less Imperial history).

I can't think of any unification bigger then those, which is a good thing as then the Orks would probably be a threat that all of the races would need to start uniting against in order to survive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ah! What I was looking for.

Codex: Orks, 3rd Edition, Page 2 wrote:Orks are the most widespread and warlike race of aliens in the bloodstained galaxy of the 41st millennium. From the depths of the core to the distant ghost stars beyond the galactic rim burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another.

So, there you have it. The orks hold more planets and have a greater population than humanity. They would destroy humanity if unified. They're never going to unite, as a race, without some very extreme circumstance.

Good find Orkeosaurus! It's funny, I'd flipped through my 3rd ed book too looking for something like that to help argue the Ork populace question, and had missed it (my fault for trusting GW to have it in the fluff section in back). I'd settled for having to debate using that stupid green glob galaxy map in the core 5th book with the whole blather about 'planets per sub-quadrant.' You are officially my hero till I find something cooler online to eclipse you (with the Web being what it is this usualy takes about five minutes, but hey, revel in it anyway).

Hopefully we can move beyond the 'who has greater numbers' aspect of the debate (which to my mind is unquestionable) and get to the heart of the matter - which is tactics, unity, and training vs. idiot savant brilliance, vast unaligned numbers, and genetically bred warrior skills.

Yay! I'm a hero!

@Thor665

I wasn't implying deception, only that the argument was merely superficially convincing. What I mean is: where is the great Ork Imperium that controls almost all of the galaxy?

I would answer with the rejoinder - they control huge swaths of this galaxy and others and they managed it without any sort of central organization because, on an individual level, all Orks intrinsically understand war, conquest, occupation, and killing things that aren't Orks...or that are Orks and look at them funny.

I suppose we could debate which might be better in a war effort versus the other, but for sheer results of owning planets they do seem to be doing just fine without a central organization.

Without a central organization I do presume you agree with me that Humanity would be in all sorts of "acck, we are dying" disarray. They need that organization, thus they developed it. The Orks don't and are doing fine.

Edit: Also, to be frank, I don't think I can agree with the claim 'almost all of the galaxy' anymore. Even with those gawdawful maps in the 5th edition book it's pretty clear that there are large chunks of the galaxy that the Imperium is, at best, a vague presence in.

Thor665 wrote:Without a central organization I do presume you agree with me that Humanity would be in all sorts of "acck, we are dying" disarray. They need that organization, thus they developed it. The Orks don't and are doing fine.

Agreed.

We're getting back to the problem of Orks and the Imperium having different standards of success.

Well to conclude i think we should agree on:

1.The Orks if ever united could destroy the Galaxy but alas that could never happen so the Imperium could use there disorder to push them back to the fringes of the Mily way, which is in a sense victory for Imperium.

2.I doubt the Orks would care about being pushed back as longas they have a good fight doing it, while the Imperium could push them back they could never acheive a full exstermination, which is in a way a victory for the Orks.

3.Even though the Orks are pushed back they would reapear and wage war on the Imperium but with not much succes taking planets then being pushed back by some guard.

4. There are some area's of space that the Imperium just couldnt push the Orks from, and remain there as a small pocket ofresistance like the Enclaves.

5.But i believe one the Imperium falls and it will fall, it may be in hundred years or a million years but the point is i believe the Orks will endure in some form, and in some distant Galaxy.

So to conclude it would end in a nasty draw, with both sides acheives some form of victory, does anyone agree with my conclusion?

Sounds about right.

OK.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:This war could be a never ending cycle.

IF the imperium were to push the orks to the outer limits of the galaxy as you all CLAIM it can than the worlds where orks had fought and died and all the space crafts and vehicles involved in those battles will be littered with spores and more orks will manifest and again the cycle will start anew.

Manchu wrote:Perhaps so. But if it is actually possible, I would contend that the Imperium would find a way to effectively exterminate the Ork race. I just don't think it's actually possible.

That's from page three.

They imperium would probably win, because of their tech and stuff, but that doesn't mean that the orks would be eradicated. There would still probably be uprisings and WAAAAGH!!!'s from time to time.

According to my vast research. I have come to this diagnosis and conclusion.


The Incredible Hulk is an ork.


And the Hulk has not, and never will be defeated.


Therefore the orkz are the victors.

I think uberman has brought us a new topic the answer to all things green, is The Hulk an Ork?


I dont think so because if he was GWlegal ninjas would have sued marvel years ago.

Xav wrote:I think uberman has brought us a new topic the answer to all things green, is The Hulk an Ork?


I dont think so because if he was GWlegal ninjas would have sued marvel years ago.

could be they secretly fear Marvels lawyerfu