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I've always thought that myself.

And stupidly enough I never thought to rest my hand on something, I'm one of those paint in the air types. I guess I get too into it whenever I do paint, I get real close to the model, hold it under the light to see if I got everything, etc.

Kilkrazy wrote:I've thought for some time that the Golden Daemon culture sets the standard too high for painting.

It's too much of a challenge so maybe people don't even start.

No-one playing historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's photography. It's impossible when you need to paint 200-300 figures.

Does GW or any other group have a competition that rates you overall? That is, do they do army list comp, generalship, painting, sportsmanship like an Overall Hobbyist kind of thing?

It is hard to be judged by them- I used to use CMON- but they are usually based on popularity and not by skills- GD awards can usually be a good way- but sometimes there are shennanigans and such like I have seen before...

My experience has been the opposite of the OPs.

When I first started playing 40k, back in 94-95, most of the guys I played with had mostly unpainted armies, with maybe a character or special vehicle painted up fairly nice.

I didn't start painting until I started attending tournaments, where the paint score was a big part of how well you could do.

Now, the LGS where I play features mostly painted armies, and the guys who do play with unpainted figures generally make good progress on their minis from week-to-week. It's not anything enforced in our store, but I think the nubs are inspired to paint because we have some pretty decently painted armies on the tables.

Neither my Chaos or my Eldar aren't anything special, but when I'm playing another fully painted army, people generally stop by and toss out a few compliments, even people who don't play the game.

Myself, I like painting....more than playing it turns out.

That's just me.

One of the nice things about our hobby is that there are lots of different angles to it.

On the gaming side, I'll play unpainted armies, no worries. I'd rather play a painted army though, simply because part of the fun for me is seeing the nicely painted armies of other folks. They don't have to be masterpieces, but I enjoy seeing what other folks have done with their armies.

No I get it- I am the same way- especially with 5th ed.- 5th pretty much killed 40k for me- so I don't play anymore- but the modeling and painting- I will always love- and they seem to get better every year...

I think its just because people are lazier than they were 25 years ago... most kids these days ARE lazy, it's quite sad...

I honestly enjoy the painting/modeling/conversion side of 40k over gaming,don't get me wrong,I love a good game with friends,but I tend to be much happier working on some "idea" I have.

I like the idea of using a "painting score" as a part of your overall tournament ranking. It would not prevent you from entering nonpainted armies, but it would prevent you from winning if you did.

Then again, many tournaments I have played disqualify you instantly if you play an unpainted or partially painted army.

Bah, people don't paint anymore because they spend all their time on forums talking about why people don't paint anymore.

Kilkrazy wrote:I've thought for some time that the Golden Daemon culture sets the standard too high for painting.

It's too much of a challenge so maybe people don't even start.

No-one playing historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's photography. It's impossible when you need to paint 200-300 figures.

Ya I see what you are saying, im a big historical painter but i still like to paint my minis.

Hi all.
Ultra Magnus 15.
'historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's'
Could you please explain this statement?

AFAIK ALL historical wargames focus more on the GAMPLAY ,and far less on the minatures.(As many historical companies just write rule sets OR produce minatures, in an open market .)
And as previously stated Historical players always paint thier minatures to play the games.As playing the games is the point of collecting and painting to them.(And 'table top standard' is normal for the majority of historical players NOT GD standard.)

And to defend my previuos post.
As pointed out, simply using counters and cardboard cut outs instead on minatures do not detract from the game play of other games.
The reason I mentioned FREE alternative rule sets for people who prefer just gaming without the emphasis on minatures.Is that without takeing advantage of the the full asthetic content, there is very little to recomend the 40k game!

Hedwerx wrote.
'I think this "problem" is pretty much a GW issue.
I don't know any historical or sci-fi gamers that would field anything unpainted, there's no rule at my local club and no-one is forced to paint, they just do.
Go to a wargames show like Salute or Colours, and you will not see an unpainted army on a games table.
Go to a historical tournament and you won't see one either, and the "I've painted this with a finger dipped in paint" armies are few and far between..

GW surreptitiously encourage using unpainted figures, by allowing them to be used in store (while vocally championing the painter in their mag as a false standard of "their" hobby)
This is because GW's business model is all about the arms race, and getting more money by enouraging the pocket money brigade to blow it all on the next big thing.
New army lists that superceed the old and make expensive models redundant, new bigger better characters that cost 3 or 4 times the price of a standard trooper for the same amount of materials. and new rulesets that up the ante on army size.
Making those that would maybe paint a smaller force just give up.

28mm is a skirmish scale, it was in 1st and 2nd ed. After 3rd it started going up through company, battalion and brigade sized games as the editions moved on.
In any other wargaming ruleset the scale would drop too, making it easier to field such large armies, but then GW wouldn't sell as many figures would it?
GW doesn't care if you paint your figures, as long as you keep buying them.

In any other aspect of the hobby (and its doing just fine those of you that think GW is the be all and end all of wargames) the hobby is building, painting, and then gaming armies, not just buying pewter.
GW is the only field in which it has slipped into just buying models for buyings sake. '

Thankyou for fully explaining my POV in detail.

GW PLC emphasis on selling minatures by the easiest available methods .Appears to be having a negative effects on everything else.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
Ultra Magnus 15.
'historicals would expect to paint an entire army to the standards we constantly see in GW's'
Could you please explain this statement?

I said that.

What I mean is GW love to publish superb looking photos of beautifully painted figures. We all know the kind of thing and lots of people on this site do fantastic work, here's an example from a Dakka member.



Here's an example of what I would call typical historical painting:


from here... http://www.io.com/~beckerdo/minis/mini28/PerryConfederateArmy/index.html

The painting technique is much simpler, and very effective since the figures are used 'en masse'. This army contains the equivalent of over 200 figures.

My point is that some users see the top flight GW or expert painter pictures, displayed double lifesize thanks to detailed digital photography, and the quality intimidates them. Knowing it must take hours to paint a single figure, they extrapolate that to the dozens of figures in their army and give up.

Historical players usually play with larger armies than 40K and adapt painting techniques to make it simpler so they can finish armies in reasonable time. Historical armies for mass battle type games in 25mm/15mm usually need about 150-250 figures each.

Frazzled wrote:Remember, the Mod team is your last line of defense from this...

O_o...What?! That is like the Gamer's ultimate trump card against women...

Girlfriend: OMG...are those plastic toys in your closet?
Gamer: OMG...is that Twilight book in your purse?
Girlfriend: But you play with tiny army men!
Gamer: But you watch the Twilight series!
Girlfriend: Whatever, you are such a dork
Gamer: Whatever, at least I am not a necro-pedophiliac

Gee I go offline for a few days and this thing explodes. I am going to make myself one of those number lists. The organization may make no sense as I tend to get distracted [ADD and all], but they seem to get noticed. I hope this inspires others to paint.

1.Currently most of my armies [1x Space Wolf, 1x Marine, and 1x Imperial Guard] are painted if not just primed.
2.My Space Wolves [only 80% are GW figs]] were all finished except for any new ones that I got, but then I joined the internet community and now the whole thing is getting a repaint. This is going to take time. To keep to sanity [to late] I decided to organize them into reunites and I started with Logan, 2 Wolf Guard Terminator Packs and his Grey Wolves. It has been a week, but all that is left is decals, basing and clear coating.
3.My Marine Chapter the Imperial Tigers [100% GW figs] is all painted, but the decals, basin and clear coat [see a theme here}. I have one squad of scouts to repaint and a Ravenwing to finish giving the details with.
4.My Imperial Guard/Daemon Hunters [20% GW figs] as only basically painted. They are painted Flat White or Primer Grey [whatever I had available when it was time to primer them] and then the pants are green or grey, guns black and the shirts are depending on which squad they are. About half the bases have been painted green. Mi had to outsource my Company Command Squad because the detail on Creed was killing me.
5.I have been painting sense the mid 70s, mostly military, but also cars and airplanes to. I even belonged to the Model of the Month Club.

This bring me to may points
1.I enjoy the painting part of the hobby [Yes Hobby not Life]
2.I enjoy the War Gaming part of the hobby [Yes Hobby not Life]
3.I personally hate fielding unpainted armies.
4.I also play D&D, Shadowrun, d20 Modern, BattleTech, Star Fleet Battles, Battlefield: Evolution. and would like to play some Star Wars.
5.I belonging to 1 Anime Club, 3 Furry Clubs/Groups, 1 [and maybe soon 2] Medieval Recreation Groups.
6.if I can find the time to paint a few hours a week I am doing good.
7.if during that time my minds say yes you are up to painting then I paint.
8.if I don’t paint, I don’t.
9.I have had time where I painted a Model/Squad/Army that I was proud of only to have one of the persons look at it and say nothing, or a patronizing “it looks ok” to “why are you wasting my time”.
10.I have been encouraged to paint better and told, “Why are you Fielding the crappy painted army”. [and this from a mostly unpainted only half primed army player]
11.I have had my RPG groups players tell me I am wasting my time or “Why do you play a game in that dark depressing universe?”

Here are my answers [insert the answer to the appropriate statement]
1.“this is a Hobby gaming is not a Life.”
2.“how I waist my time is my business, how I waist your time is your business.”
3.I would rather you have a painted army than a not, but that wont make me not want to play you.
4.“thanks for the critique, now tell me why would I want to play you now?”
5.“Real life is always an acceptable excuse.”

If you really hate unpainted armies and enjoy painting armies try this.
1.“Hey that is a cool army, what is your paint scheme going to be? You don’t have the time, well then would you like me to paint them for you?”
2.If you really hate unpainted armies then convince your LFGS to have a massive tournament, but unpainted armies always loose initiative.

What I think I am trying to say is Encourage Painting, don’t Badger them into Painting

I think overly complex painting lessons put people off.

Used to have a GW employee round my way who was an excellent painter, but a rubbish teacher. You'd ask him for example, for a reccomended technique to do rust, and get a five minute reply.

My skills simply weren't a match for his, and he seemed unable to go back a few dozen steps and suggest techniques for those with middling skills.

Now, do this to a total newb, and the whole painting business becomes a confusing mess of technique names.

Far better in my mind to show them quick and simple techniques (all hail the GW Washes!) and then slowly progress from there, as, when and if the Hobbyist wants too.

I want my models to look good, but I'm not fussed about winning any Painting Competitions!

Personally the continual rules changes and the need to keep changing ones army are the reason I stopped painting. I used to paint for tournaments but since the game is not to my liking I stopped. It's also very annoying when I have a painted army of around 100 figs and a new codex comes out and I have to scrap 50 and paint new ones just to make it legal.

I liked expanding my armies, I hate replacing them.

Bat Manuel wrote:Personally the continual rules changes and the need to keep changing ones army are the reason I stopped painting. I used to paint for tournaments but since the game is not to my liking I stopped. It's also very annoying when I have a painted army of around 100 figs and a new codex comes out and I have to scrap 50 and paint new ones just to make it legal.

I liked expanding my armies, I hate replacing them.

This statement confuses me.
When the new Space Puppy Codex came out I only had to replace a hand full of figures, I just expanded they all had a new home.

Anpu42 wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:Personally the continual rules changes and the need to keep changing ones army are the reason I stopped painting. I used to paint for tournaments but since the game is not to my liking I stopped. It's also very annoying when I have a painted army of around 100 figs and a new codex comes out and I have to scrap 50 and paint new ones just to make it legal.

I liked expanding my armies, I hate replacing them.

This statement confuses me.
When the new Space Puppy Codex came out I only had to replace a hand full of figures, I just expanded they all had a new home.

Lucky you.
Look into the changes of Marines over the years and you'll find that several common builds are not even legal anymore, they even took away my favorite razorback and then brought it back a few years later

What I don’t get is a new codex changing half of your figures.
You have 50+ Marines armed with a Bolt Guns and Bolt Pistols or Close Combat Weapons. It has been that ways since 1st edition, so a new does not change that.
A few characters that make up 10% of your force change.

I had that to when [I think it was 2nd to 3rd] and they got rid of the Autocannon for marines. They turned into Las-Cannons or Heavy Bolters [4 figures changed].

The biggest change I have had to make was with my Space Wolves. My Wolf Guard Heavy Weapons went a way and the number of Wolf Guard Terminator Heavy Weapons Changed. I now have 2 sets of Long Fangs and 3 Extra Wolf Guard Packs.

The biggest change I have had to make was with my Imperial Tigers Space Marine Chapter was now all of my Sergeants that were armed with Paired Lighting Claws are now becoming Vanguards and I had to come with 6 new sergeants.

The Imperial Guard Codex was good for me for once. It was the 1st time I could field a IG army without getting new figures. The only one that got screwed was done in 4th when my one Veteran Sergeant with now illegal Combi-Bolter. Now he is going to be one of my DH Storm Trooper Sargents.

I understand that the Orks have some problems, but I have not have seen the others.

So forgive my ignorance for the other armies.

solkan wrote:Bah, people don't paint anymore because they spend all their time on forums talking about why people don't paint anymore.

QFT. Can I use that in my sig solkan?

I paint and while my brain reboots and the paint dries I Troll

I was going to paint and then Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 came out.

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me it is about time. I buy the game so I can play painting is just a fringe benefit for me.

solkan wrote:Bah, people don't paint anymore because they spend all their time on forums talking about why people don't paint anymore.

QFT x2. I am definitely guilty of this. I should walk a few meters and apply some of those miracle washes to a couple of orks.

In fact, I will. Expect a report back once two orks have been coated in Devlan mud.

I haven't done any painting in about a year and a half. I have boxes and boxes full of unpainted minis - most of them are assembled, some aren't. There are several reasons for this:

1) Time. I spend a lot of time with my family, and also have a lot of hobbies and interests. Squeezing everything in is a challenge, so things get priority if they're important or very enjoyable. Painting, sadly, is neither.

2) The last time I painted, the project was an apocalypse size Blood Angels succesor chapter. One red mini after another, after another, after another... it kinda destroyed my ability to enjoy painting. Although, the 'over-indulged' feeling is finally starting to pass.

3) I'm addicted to converting - particularly kit-bashing. Over the past year I've continually made one ambitious conversion after another, not pausing to paint my projects in between. Plus, some of my kit-bashes have been so ambitious that I've had to save up the components until I had everything I wanted. Thus, lots of grey plastic, and still 30ish unassembled minis, and many many minis assembled but still with some finishing touches to be added.

I think I will do some more painting soon though. I starting to get the urge back, and it'd be insane for me to get more minis before clearing some of my backlog, so that gives me an incentive. As soon as my latest kitbash is complete, I'll start finishing off, priming and painting one unit at a time.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Used to have a GW employee round my way who was an excellent painter, but a rubbish teacher. You'd ask him for example, for a reccomended technique to do rust, and get a five minute reply.

Most excellent painters wont give away their secret on what makes their painting good.
The only sure way is to sit next to them and watch them paint from beginning till finish of a model.

I used to paint, but now I'm in school and there's not even enough time to play. : /

I like painted armies, but I realize that people's lives can be really hectic, so I don't get disappointed if I don't play against one. If I DO get to play against a well paint it army, I consider it like having desert after a meal- I enjoy it when I have it.

LunaHound wrote:
Most excellent painters wont give away their secret on what makes their painting good.
The only sure way is to sit next to them and watch them paint from beginning till finish of a model.

I have to disagree here. I have only ever met one painter who refused to share a technique. Most people are more than happy to.

Redbeard wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Most excellent painters wont give away their secret on what makes their painting good.
The only sure way is to sit next to them and watch them paint from beginning till finish of a model.

I have to disagree here. I have only ever met one painter who refused to share a technique. Most people are more than happy to.

I've had mixed experiences here. At my LGS we have a painting group that gets together on thursdays (unfortunately, school interferes with my attendance). One guy, who paints pretty well (say 7 on a 10 scale) happily shares techniques. When I found a great way to do gems with washes, I shared my technique with the others as well. There is one guy, however, who paints closer to 8-9, and makes his living selling painted minis on e-bay, shares absolutely nothing.