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And I would also not have minded my Guardsmen to staying their old price for free "Sharp Shooters" or a boost in Leadership. But that didn't happen for fluff reasons.

Here's how using fluff, FWs can have a BS4; it's already in the codex. Ethereals are allowed and honor guard unit of FWs that can purchase BS for +2 pts per model. These are veterans that forgo the natural progression to battlesuit pilotdom (pg 33 of the codex).

This begs the question why crisis suits are BS 3 if this is the case but nobody's ever accused GW of being consistent.

There you go. BS4 FWs for 12 pts per model but takes an elite spot. Maybe throw in a heavy weapon option and boom, done, no new codex needed.

agnosto wrote:Here's how using fluff, FWs can have a BS4; it's already in the codex. Ethereals are allowed and honor guard unit of FWs that can purchase BS for +2 pts per model. These are veterans that forgo the natural progression to battlesuit pilotdom (pg 33 of the codex).

This begs the question why crisis suits are BS 3 if this is the case but nobody's ever accused GW of being consistent.

There you go. BS4 FWs for 12 pts per model but takes an elite spot. Maybe throw in a heavy weapon option and boom, done, no new codex needed.

The BS4 Fire Warriors don't take up an Elite slot...they are counted as part of the Ethereal's HQ slot.

Tau standard weapons are the Pulse Rifles. They are R30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire with their variants being the Pulse Carbine which is similar but R18" Assault 2? with Pinning.

Assault 1 which is why no one ever takes them.

Meaning; fix Vespids, cheaper Kroot, and something about the Ethereals, I have never actually faced one so I don't know their problems personally (but believe me I have heard the whining!).

I don't think Kroot need to be cheaper just have their field craft extented to all terrain to stop you being reliant on woods which cover some tables and aren't on plenty of others.

Ethereals are 50 points of nothingness. They give a boost to eth unit they are in and allow you to re-roll Ld tests. Which is fine until you work out that your entire army has to take a break test the minute he dies and he's T3 with NO armour!

Then you have the Space Pope who's 205 points and actually damages your army when he's around (by making them stubborn), and then makes you all run away when he dies. And as he has a retinue of 2 rather useless guards (they have no guns) and isn't an IC he can't even hide out in another unit or on a transport!


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Here's how using fluff, FWs can have a BS4; it's already in the codex. Ethereals are allowed and honor guard unit of FWs that can purchase BS for +2 pts per model. These are veterans that forgo the natural progression to battlesuit pilotdom (pg 33 of the codex).

This begs the question why crisis suits are BS 3 if this is the case but nobody's ever accused GW of being consistent.

There you go. BS4 FWs for 12 pts per model but takes an elite spot. Maybe throw in a heavy weapon option and boom, done, no new codex needed.

Woo Hoo non-scoring FWs how incredibly usefull...

FlingitNow wrote:

Tau standard weapons are the Pulse Rifles. They are R30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire with their variants being the Pulse Carbine which is similar but R18" Assault 2? with Pinning.

Assault 1 which is why no one ever takes them.

If pinning were effective against more units, then I would. So many units are immune to it's effects though, that the only odd use I find for Pulse Carbines is occasionally firing and then assaulting, if I am in a terrain heavy-map. Certainly not the best option, but it denies the opponent an extra attack and grants me 1 more than usual.

If pinning were effective against more units, then I would. So many units are immune to it's effects though, that the only odd use I find for Pulse Carbines is occasionally firing and then assaulting, if I am in a terrain heavy-map. Certainly not the best option, but it denies the opponent an extra attack and grants me 1 more than usual.

Exactly against horde armies pinning is useless as they are all fearless. Against MEQ they have great Ld and you are unlikley to cause a wound and will certainly struggle to cause more than one (which is what you'll need to actually have a chance of them failing).

Admit it though if they were Assault 2 you'd never take rifles! 2 shots to 18" range would make them more effective in general than having the extra shot to 30". This is the problem with them, they damage your FWs core firepower.

Make them assault 2 and 15" range and allow Rifles to rapidfire upto 15" and then you actually have a balanced choice. Or they could just stop EVERY horde army from being fearless...

FlingitNow wrote:

If pinning were effective against more units, then I would. So many units are immune to it's effects though, that the only odd use I find for Pulse Carbines is occasionally firing and then assaulting, if I am in a terrain heavy-map. Certainly not the best option, but it denies the opponent an extra attack and grants me 1 more than usual.

Admit it though if they were Assault 2 you'd never take rifles! 2 shots to 18" range would make them more effective in general than having the extra shot to 30". This is the problem with them, they damage your FWs core firepower

Your idea would break the system: 2 shots to 24" (move 6", shoot 18"), or 1 shot at 30"/2 shots at 15"
There has to be some counterbalance to the fact that you can trade a Pulse Rifle for a Carbine, and gain a Markerlight in the process.

FlingitNow wrote:Or they could just stop EVERY horde army from being fearless...

You cannot stop the dreaded Codex Creep!

As a Guard player with loads of Barrage weapons, I certainly wish Pinning was a possibility against horde armies. At the same time, I wouldn't want to hold up 20+ enemy unit with a single sniper round either. But that's another matter.

Why not just have Carbines R12" Assault 2? With Pinning added in, as unlikely as one might think it is, it would still make up for the shorter range, and make for a more even trade with the Rifles.

Che-Vito wrote:
The BS4 Fire Warriors don't take up an Elite slot...they are counted as part of the Ethereal's HQ slot.

Yes, currently; perhaps I wasn't clear enough in that it's my solution to bringing about BS 4 FWs. Create an elite FW squad with BS4 at +2 pts per model and maybe an 8 leadership. Problem solved.

Your idea would break the system: 2 shots to 24" (move 6", shoot 18"), or 1 shot at 30"/2 shots at 15"
There has to be some counterbalance to the fact that you can trade a Pulse Rifle for a Carbine, and gain a Markerlight in the process.

You missunderstand I'd reduce the carbine range to 15". You don't get an ML wioth Carrbines just with pathfinders.

So either way you'd get 2 shots up to 15" (or 21" if you include a 6" move). Then the simple choice is pinning or standing still for one shot to 30". Much more balanced.

Skinnattittar wrote:As a Guard player with loads of Barrage weapons, I certainly wish Pinning was a possibility against horde armies. At the same time, I wouldn't want to hold up 20+ enemy unit with a single sniper round either. But that's another matter.

Why not just have Carbines R12" Assault 2? With Pinning added in, as unlikely as one might think it is, it would still make up for the shorter range, and make for a more even trade with the Rifles.

You know the answer to that Skinnittar! 18" will keep SOME dedicated assault units out of assault range for at least 1 more turn, while 12" would absolutely not.


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FlingitNow wrote:

Your idea would break the system: 2 shots to 24" (move 6", shoot 18"), or 1 shot at 30"/2 shots at 15"
There has to be some counterbalance to the fact that you can trade a Pulse Rifle for a Carbine, and gain a Markerlight in the process.

You missunderstand I'd reduce the carbine range to 15". You don't get an ML wioth Carrbines just with pathfinders.

So either way you'd get 2 shots up to 15" (or 21" if you include a 6" move). Then the simple choice is pinning or standing still for one shot to 30". Much more balanced.

21" for 2 shots (pinning is relatively useless at this point), for 30" for 1 shot? I'd still take 21" every time.

buffing the carbine to assault 2 18 inches would seem to turn fire warriors into Dire Avenger Clones... t3, 4+ armor, assault 2 18 inches. One has an s5 gun, the other has ballistic skill 4, one has marker lights, the other has doom and guide.

not that there's anything really wrong with this, as Dire Avengers still perform very well from skimmers, except that it would basically turn tau into Eldar clones without the close combat potential, which doesn't really seem right.

@ Che-Vito : That's the point. An 18" range weapon isn't a Carbine, it's a short Rifle. At that point, if would have to be Rapid Fire again, so it's a different kind of Pulse Rifle instead of an Assault weapon. Just as Flingitnow points out, you actually have a 24" range from the beginning of the turn with R18", which also means you're advancing but never assaulting, which is what Assault weapons are for.

In all honesty I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for 12" range. I would suggest R15" S5 AP5 Assault 2 with no pinning as a full trade for any Pulse Rifle. Same I would do for Lasguns, except of course, with their profile of R12" S3 Assault 2, call is a Lascarbine. Shotguns I would give R12" S4 AP- Assault 3 (Assault 3 to compensate for the spread of the blast) which would be purchasable throughout the squad (say limit of 1?). But I would do a lot of things differently with Guard squads.

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Che-Vito : That's the point. An 18" range weapon isn't a Carbine, it's a short Rifle. At that point, if would have to be Rapid Fire again, so it's a different kind of Pulse Rifle instead of an Assault weapon. Just as Flingitnow points out, you actually have a 24" range from the beginning of the turn with R18", which also means you're advancing but never assaulting, which is what Assault weapons are for.

In all honesty I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for 12" range. I would suggest R15" S5 AP5 Assault 2 with no pinning as a full trade for any Pulse Rifle. Same I would do for Lasguns, except of course, with their profile of R12" S3 Assault 2, call is a Lascarbine. Shotguns I would give R12" S4 AP- Assault 3 (Assault 3 to compensate for the spread of the blast) which would be purchasable throughout the squad (say limit of 1?). But I would do a lot of things differently with Guard squads.

Modern carbines are hardly different from "long" rifles as far as range, power and utility are concerned. A prime example is the M4A1 Carbine (the M4 provides the individual soldier operating in close quarters the capability to engage targets at extended range with accurate, lethal fire) so not sure where the range being an issue is coming from.
Pinning doesn't matter anymore as any unit you want to pin is either immune or highly, highly resistant; so yeah, we can lose pinning and I wouldn't cry.

Make a purchasable underslung grenade launcher that does something cool like slow down assaults (affected units move as if in difficult terrain).

Ah yes, the M4 compared to the M16.

An M16 with match barrel has an effective point target range of 950m. The M4 with match barrel? 550m for a target (I can't remember if that is area or point).

Your standard M16 has an area target range of 900m (shooting at a group) and the typical M4 is at 400m-450m for area target. A lot of literature will say otherwise, and even the Army TM's will say different. But that's what is has been in my experience.

21" for 2 shots (pinning is relatively useless at this point), for 30" for 1 shot? I'd still take 21" every time.

The point being you'd get the 2 shots to 15" either way. Pinning is kind of useless, but how often are your FWs going to stand still to pop off a 30" shot? The result is both are of fairly even value. And 12 FWs with Carbines would actually have a decent chance of pinning a marine or CSM unit particularly if aided by MLs.

So both options would have uses but in either case you'd get the 2 shots to 15".

Skinnattittar wrote:Ah yes, the M4 compared to the M16.

An M16 with match barrel has an effective point target range of 950m. The M4 with match barrel? 550m for a target (I can't remember if that is area or point).

Your standard M16 has an area target range of 900m (shooting at a group) and the typical M4 is at 400m-450m for area target. A lot of literature will say otherwise, and even the Army TM's will say different. But that's what is has been in my experience.

Naw, effective range for M4A1 is 500meters while the M16 is 550meters. You lose 50 meters (which noone but an expert marksman, not an average infantryman, would be shooting further than maybe 200 meters). Muzzle velocity, ammo, rnds per minute are all exactly the same or very near, between the two.

Area target range is not a valid basis for comparison; if you're shooting that far away, you're wasting ammo and won't hit squat (or a squat..har har har).

I would be wondering where agnosto got his numbers....

For me? I know the M16A2 with match barrel (not the standard barrel) can hit a point target, meaning center-mass, at 950m. How do I know that? Because I did it, a lot. In the cold. And rain. And wind. With no snivel gear because the damn weatherman said it would be 70F out with no wind or clouds. It sucked basically. We also had M4A1s, with match barrels and normal M16A2-A4 and M4A1s. We stopped using them at around 500m because they couldn't hit the targets reliably.

Besides all that, 40k doesn't use modern firearm analysis, but the old style when these things mattered more. Today? Well we can make much shorter barrels and maintain the same accuracy as cheaper, longer ones. M4 barrels, your typical ones, have higher end barrels than your typical M16, so their "effective" ranges are very close. But when you give them the same quality barrels, you'll see the differences between them better.

It is useless to worry about how to justify the BS being 2, 3 or 4 through fluff, or by comparisons with other codexes or real life.

It needs to be the value that works in the game together with the other factors in play. The other factors can also be adjusted and this would change the appropriate value of the BS.

Skinnattittar wrote:I would be wondering where agnosto got his numbers....

For me? I know the M16A2 with match barrel (not the standard barrel) can hit a point target, meaning center-mass, at 950m. How do I know that? Because I did it, a lot. In the cold. And rain. And wind. With no snivel gear because the damn weatherman said it would be 70F out with no wind or clouds. It sucked basically. We also had M4A1s, with match barrels and normal M16A2-A4 and M4A1s. We stopped using them at around 500m because they couldn't hit the targets reliably.

Besides all that, 40k doesn't use modern firearm analysis, but the old style when these things mattered more. Today? Well we can make much shorter barrels and maintain the same accuracy as cheaper, longer ones. M4 barrels, your typical ones, have higher end barrels than your typical M16, so their "effective" ranges are very close. But when you give them the same quality barrels, you'll see the differences between them better.

I was never issued a match barrel and you missed my point entirely.

If we, dumb monkeys in this day and age can improve weapon systems to the point where the differences between a "rifle" and "carbine" effective threat range are non-existant, what will armies 40k years in the future be able to do?

Again, we're talking about, or should be, average soldiers using average equipment. We can sit here all day and talk about how we've used specialized equipment to hit far-flung targets but it has little to do with an average soldier with an average weapon and what the DoD defines as maximum effective range, "The maximum distance at which a weapon may be expected to be accurate and achieve the desired result." and for the comparison that I used, the M16 (rifle) and the M14A1 (carbine) have nearly the same maximum effective range (50 meters difference).

Well as I said, the M4 carbine, standard, has a much better barrel than the standard M16. If we give both weapons the same quality barrels, rather than just what they come with, you'll start seeing a bigger difference.

I whipped out my handy-dandy Janes Guide to check, and the M4 does have an "effective range" of 500m, and the M16 has an "effective range" of 550m. It doesn't say if either is point or area targets, but my recent previous point still stands, and we're getting off topic.

I think having a Pulse Rifle and Pulse Carbine, one with full and the other half ranges is fluffy and fine. I would also say the same for Lasguns and Lascarbines.

Skinnattittar wrote:Well as I said, the M4 carbine, standard, has a much better barrel than the standard M16. If we give both weapons the same quality barrels, rather than just what they come with, you'll start seeing a bigger difference.

I whipped out my handy-dandy Janes Guide to check, and the M4 does have an "effective range" of 500m, and the M16 has an "effective range" of 550m. It doesn't say if either is point or area targets, but my recent previous point still stands, and we're getting off topic.

I think having a Pulse Rifle and Pulse Carbine, one with full and the other half ranges is fluffy and fine. I would also say the same for Lasguns and Lascarbines.

Point targets.

I think we can all agree that rapid fire should be half the range of the weapon and not the current 12". As to pulse carbines, assault 1 at range of 18" and assault 2 at range of 9" would be different and not over powering.

If we're talking about doubling the firepower of the carbine (which I am not opposed to as it would allow more fire and maneuver from the Firewarriors) I would suggest a profile for the pulse rifle of Heavy 2 to give them a long range static option as well, that to me would be an more interesting choice between two options then what we have now.

Jack

If the pulse rifle had a rapid fire range of 15" -- which I like -- the carbine would be all but useless in comparison even with assault 2 at 9".

The purpose of an assault weapon is to let you fire and assault; clearly Tau never want to.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the pulse rifle had a rapid fire range of 15" -- which I like -- the carbine would be all but useless in comparison even with assault 2 at 9".

The purpose of an assault weapon is to let you fire and assault; clearly Tau never want to.

Yeah, that's the problem. Another option would be to replace the pinning affect with a grenade that makes enemy units that take a casualty from carbine fire treat their next movement phase as moving through rough terrain. Get some real use out of the underslung grenade launcher as pinning is useless now vs. any unit that's worth pinning.

Heavy 2 on the pulse rifle's not a bad idea at all but may be a bit OP considering S5 AP5 @ 30"....

agnosto wrote:Heavy 2 on the pulse rifle's not a bad idea at all but may be a bit OP considering S5 AP5 @ 30"....

Its only 6 more inches of effective range for on foot firewarriors versus the carbine, but lets them do the same damage at 30 inches that bolter marines manage at 12 basically. I think the most useful part of this would be giving them enough shots to have a fair chance of bringing down light vehicles at range since they lack in squad anti vehicle weaponry and tau anti tank tends to currently by powerful but in limited quantity which can make dealing with large numbers of lighter mechanized units hard.

Jack

Maybe a variable setting on the rifle, long range shots take more concentration to be accurate; maybe heavy 2 up to 24" and heavy 1 from 24-30".

I dunno, there's lots of good ideas to keep them different and more effective. I'd hate to have to write the codex because of the options.

agnosto wrote:Maybe a variable setting on the rifle, long range shots take more concentration to be accurate; maybe heavy 2 up to 24" and heavy 1 from 24-30".

I dunno, there's lots of good ideas to keep them different and more effective. I'd hate to have to write the codex because of the options.

Or just make Rapid Fire at 15". Then the tactic of jumping out of the Fish to RF is still viable.

Ok wow..
1. i cant believe this thread is still alive i'm proud to have started it lol

2. I recently played 2 games today where i had 6 suits base BS 4, 3 suits Base BS 4 and twinlinked (my list is posted in Army list section 1,750) It also had 8 pathfinders in the list.

This being said, it did not make the suits over powered, markerlights were still used to increase the BS of the suits to BS 5, but it allowed for more marklights to be devoted to removing that ever present cover save..


I think that there needs to be a balance made between either.. tau models becoming MUCH cheaper and for Crisis squad sizes to be increased to allow compensation for the loss of wounds getting through to targets that would otherwise get shredded by VERY high costing weapon and said platforms. Especially considering that Tau have effectively no anti cover killing weapons..AFP? please.

These points being made, ive played many games w/ varying amount of suits that are at BS 4. What it comes down to right now is, running suits at BS 4, actually reduces the average wounds you throw on target, yet decreases the variance (meaning you more consistently give wounds)

BUT!!!

If suits/Fws were increase to BS 4, it would just reinforce the role of marklights being used to strip cover saves, and reduce the need for a AoE Cover ignoring weapon (blast weapon) it would in no way make marklights redundant! and for those that thing it would, try playing a game vs a smart player (one who uses cover.) and running all your suits/fws at BS 4, it will increase your wounds marginally. Then try the same game with some marklights thrown in with those suits. This is a challange to those who think it will unbalance the game.

no, Blasphemy, this would make tau too good.