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It is also Impossible to overheat

The Shadow Hawk would have been the king of 3025 if it had swapped the AC/5 for a large laser. It could maximize the jump capability and increase the size of a missile launcher, either one would be fine.

Then it would have been the best medium in 3025.

Sure you could have put a PPC in place of the AC as well, but then it might have been too similar to the Griffin.

The only official variant I could find for 3025 that may have worked was the SHD-2K Kurita model which drops the AC/5 for a PPC and drops the SRM2 for more heat sinks to deal with the PPC. It's not bad, but I agree it is too similar to the griffin. A Large Laser would be far cooler. Now you are jumping and blasting and still never overheating turn after turn, with that solid 55 tonner armor maxed out all at the same time.

If you're looking at the three mediums (Griffen, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk) you see that the Shadow Hawk is trying to fulfill both a long and short range role, while the Griffen is specifically long range and the Wolverine is primarily short range.

A better load out would have been something like Large Laser, LRM 10, and 2 or 3 Medium Lasers, but I'm pretty sure that would require an armor or mobility sacrifice, and to be honest its really not terribly different than a Phenix Hawk with a LRM.

Yeah the Phoenix Hawk was a decent mech except for weapon placement. I cannot count the number of armless phoenix hawks I have had running around incapable of doing anything. If they had just put one gun somewhere in the torso it would have been awesome, but no, it always ends up with its arms blown off trying to do a charge or a DFA. Really bad heat issues on that guy too. You can't jump and unload without regretting it the next turn.


Okay... side topic... I am doing a music project called the Battle Robots of Death, that does death-techno covers of horrible 80s tunes with robot voices silly robot masks and horrible metal guitar (I know, I'm wierd). I was thinking of using battletech art for the flyers... so... if you had a lance of mechs in a band... what would they look like?

My first thoughts were:

hatchetman (guitar, obviously)
warhammer (drums... them some big drum sticks for arms)
firestarter (vocals, just for the name)
thunderbolt (bass, also for the name, but imagine that arm cannon as a bass guitar and the whole torso as a big speaker!)

I'm not so sure on putting the firestarter on vocals though, as it isn't really a very sexy looking mech. Maybe a Wasp or a Valkyrie could pull off the frontman role better... or Banshee (also for the name, but that breaks standard lance structure cause there's no light mech). Which light mech would make the best lead singer in a battle robot band?

Go for the Panther for the "Singer."

yeah panthers are pretty sexy. I gotta go redesign a cardboard helmet... will post pics when its all done. good idea.

Back to the shadow hawk idea, just playing around with the 3025 version, you could drop 2 large lasers and 2 SRM 4s on it for the same weight as the existing weapons (I think, its been years since I looked at BTech really). You'd have a big heat problem if you wanted to jump and fire both LLs but you would have some redundancy from damage as well.

Alternatively, LL, LRM 15, SRM 4 would work at the cost of a ton of armor, but again its mostly a Griffen then.

drop the srm2 and ammo, switch the AC/5 for a LL, add 2 more jets, another ton of armor, 2 SLs in place of the SRM2 and 3 sinks now you have a sicko shadowhawk.

But nobody ever made that design as a Canonical mech. When it comes down to it, all the 55 ton twins are the same mech just with different combinations of weapons. 55 tons with 152 points of armor and a walk speed of 5, they're all the same. Same with the wasp and stinger, it's just a question of if you want an SRM launcher or a pair of machineguns, otherwise its exactly the same mech, right down to armor alocation.

The armor placement is a little different. If memory serves, the Wolverine is one of the few mechs without 9 armor on the head (It only has 8)

My personaly fav to look at was the Shadow hawk.

I've always been partial to the Phoenix Hawk. I have been told that I am meant to be an Atlas pilot though.

I finally got to see the 'Mech the classic 55 ton trio always wanted to be in 3025: The Gladiator 4D.

PPC, 2 mediums, SRM 6. 5/8/5 movement. Excellent armor, and enough heat sinks to use the PPC and run, or the short range stuff. Very solid design.

Only complaint is the SRM6 in the Right Arm has the ammo in the left torso. Not so smart.

ammo in general is not so smart. at least it doesnt have it in the CT just begging for that crit. where would you put it? side torso is generally the best option IMO

For my two cents, the Highlander was my fav mech. 90 tons, a guass, and jump jets? Thank you very much.

Guitardian wrote:ammo in general is not so smart. at least it doesnt have it in the CT just begging for that crit. where would you put it? side torso is generally the best option IMO

I would put it in the right torso. In the current design, if you lose the left torso, you lose the AMMO for the SRM launcher, but not the launcher itself. The right torso also had an extra heat sink I think, so it had a little bit more crit protection from being hit.

If your ammo gets hit it's pretty generally assumed that your mech gets blown to bits unless you have CASE, in which case you just lost a side of your mech but at least you aren't dead. CT risks crit hits, arms are usually weakly armor, legs have their own issues with actuators etc, the only safe place to stash ammo is in side torso.

I actually survived an ammo crit on an ARC-2S Archer last time I played...I fired the last round of ammo in that bay the same turn it was critted...Net result no extra damage.

Granted, I lost the Archer to another ammo crit the next round...

SPARKEYG wrote:For my two cents, the Highlander was my fav mech. 90 tons, a guass, and jump jets? Thank you very much.

It got a Gauss Weapon on it, and jump That is like saying Death Company Dreanught he is good, its a no brainer.

Mattlov wrote:The Shadow Hawk would have been the king of 3025 if it had swapped the AC/5 for a large laser. It could maximize the jump capability and increase the size of a missile launcher, either one would be fine.

Then it would have been the best medium in 3025.

Sure you could have put a PPC in place of the AC as well, but then it might have been too similar to the Griffin.

If you advocating swapping out autocannon for lasers you are missing the point of 3025.

Mattlov you have been spoiled. Take a quite reasonable pirate lance with a Shadowhawk a Jagermech, a Charger and a Firestarter. Play a scenario, none of that BV nonsence, learn to make do and learn that in proper Battletech retreat is not defeat, defeat is leaving salvage behind.

Orlanth wrote:

Mattlov wrote:The Shadow Hawk would have been the king of 3025 if it had swapped the AC/5 for a large laser. It could maximize the jump capability and increase the size of a missile launcher, either one would be fine.

Then it would have been the best medium in 3025.

Sure you could have put a PPC in place of the AC as well, but then it might have been too similar to the Griffin.

If you advocating swapping out autocannon for lasers you are missing the point of 3025.

Mattlov you have been spoiled. Take a quite reasonable pirate lance with a Shadowhawk a Jagermech, a Charger and a Firestarter. Play a scenario, none of that BV nonsence, learn to make do and learn that in proper Battletech retreat is not defeat, defeat is leaving salvage behind.

You sir, are astoundingly wrong. I understand the WHY of the autocannon, and the fluff and such behind it. This does NOT make it a good choice. If you want to go that route though, I can make that mod as well. Drop the LRM 5 completely to upgrade the AC/5 to an AC/10. At least you can threaten most designs then.

I LOVE 3025 combat, it is the best way to play Battletech. As for your lance, it would be fun. And not the worst I could come up with.

I can't think of much worse than Orlanth's lance except maybe the firestarer is a little overpowered for its teammates and the shadowhawk is comparatively tough. switch them up for a basic stinger and basic vulcan then you have a winner atbeing a loser!

Filbert Humperdink's Last Chancers: (They work for Liao, obviously)
Charger (5/4... he's the 'good' pilot so he gets to be Lieutennant)
Jagermech (6/4)
Vulcan (6/4)
Stinger (6/4)

If you want a decent Shadow Hawk...Check out the Royal version of it

Mattlov wrote:
You sir, are astoundingly wrong. I understand the WHY of the autocannon, and the fluff and such behind it.

Do you understand?

Mattlov wrote:
This does NOT make it a good choice. If you want to go that route though, I can make that mod as well. Drop the LRM 5 completely to upgrade the AC/5 to an AC/10. At least you can threaten most designs then.

Evidently you dont. The AC5 is a wonder of technology a 'medium' weight autocannon with excellent range and a 'powerful' punch enabling to keep up in the modern laser age. To think that your mech can fire this cannon on the run with the gyro automatically adjusting for recoil via the neurohelmet, its a pity that we dont really understand how this is done anymore.

Hold on did you mention dropping the LRM launcher on your family mech, have you any idea how tough it is to recalbrate new weaponry for a mech chassis, most custom jobs involve removing a laser and adding more armour or something like that. Here you want to completely redesign a mech removing a two ton missile module and its ammo bin in order to add a heavy autocannon. Will the software be able to cope, remember our software is black box its not designed for 'tweaks' like this. We could run tests but you would have to bring the mech to the factory and proably replace a lot of the daughtbaords in the cockpit. Has there ever been a refit kit for this kind of stuff. I know the Davions like to play with heavy autocannon and produce kits, but did they do so for the Shadowhawk, and its major house stuff anyway. way beyond anything a company or garriosn tech team can slip together.
Besides why removing the LRM and replace the autocannon with a heavier calibre anyway, thw ashadow Hawk is a very goosd blend of speed and utility, the pair of long range weapons gives it a good threat band. This is likely why your family has been able to keep them mech, and others like it such as ther Griffin. Were your ancestors Enforcer jocks you may well have been born to dispossessed parents.

These are not omnis. They dont even have the benefit of recovered technology, any change is a major undertaking and all mechs are precious, some are merely more precious than others. You are a mechwarrior, you are the elite, your ride is a Shadow Hawk, fifty five tons of death to any who oppose you. Your only equal is another mechwarrior.

Think 3025.

Mattlov wrote:
I LOVE 3025 combat, it is the best way to play Battletech. As for your lance, it would be fun. And not the worst I could come up with.

Guitardian wrote:I can't think of much worse than Orlanth's lance except maybe the firestarer is a little overpowered for its teammates and the shadowhawk is comparatively tough. switch them up for a basic stinger and basic vulcan then you have a winner atbeing a loser!

Thats the idea, but I didnt want to overdo the AC2's. Also the Firestarter is heavier and more expensive than a Stinger but not much better.
Anyway yes we can make worse but the pont was that respresents a pirate lance, and not an unreasonable one at that. Periphery forces deply what they have got and if that means wunderwaffe like the 'mighty' 3025 era Charger then a Charger is what you have.

The basic Shadow Hawks in the Basic 3025 game with little or modifications. As a sort-medium range [5-9 hexes] fire support mech it can do the job.
With its tons Ammo and low heat, you can skip around the battlefield looking for soffend up armor.
One of the real medificatio we used to do was rip out the LRM-5 for 3 more SRM-2 and loading it up with Infernos.
or
Rip out the SRM-2 for a second LRM-5.

We used to just randomly draw who got what mech and just deal with it. For some reason (like low damage output?) I usually was happy to have the Shadowhawk because when there's 3 other more dangerous mechs on the board, like back-shotting jumpy lights or gun-heavy heavies and assaults... I was never a priority target. Actually its one of the only mechs I completely ran out of ammo (yes even the SRMs) and was still running around kicking at stuff and zapping away with the laser as the last mech in my lance, while the others all got gang raped one by one, all got gunned down. I left the battlefield after I realized that the other team's Locust had more firepower than me at that point (another low-priority survivor mech), but not after unloading every round of ammo I had and taking my plinky toll on them. So I guess its not such a bad thing to be a shadowhawk pilot. I wanted a Dragon for similar reasons but my friend always drew that one (I think he rigged the deck) and he had the same experience of people just not going after him much because ooohhh scary AC/5 and 10 LRMs just doesn't worry many heavy mechs... plus it can run around a lot and people just focus fire on the huge slow hard hitter heavy armored beast, that's a surer hit roll, or the back-threatening light that can go down to a couple of good shots.

I think a hunchback would be a death sentence because everybody wants to bring it down as fast as possible, or a warhammer, awesome, panther, or other such high damage output mechs just begging to be mobbed. So drawing the Shadowhawk in multiplayer games is kind of a blessing because nobody really cares so much what you're doing but you do get those lucky hits from time to time and crit something or knock a head off and everyone including yourself is awestruck. Still, ammo runs out and you end up with just the ML and some decent armor and half-assed jets... time to go... live to fight another day

So if you could have 1 mech, 3025 canon, what would you want? The obvious first choice everyone wants an Awesome... but... when you play an 8 player game with 1 mech each, and psychology becomes a factor and you are looking out for just your own mech, what would you really prefer? The huge fire magnet that blows gak up like nobody's business (warhammer, awesome, hunchback), the dangerous backshooting mech (spider, wasp, locust, clint, cicada, grasshopper, quickdraw, etc... bugs), the fire support guy who just sits in a bush all game until it gets mobbed (archer, crusader, catapult, etc)... or the guy that nobody pays attention to because it's 1: hard to hit and 2: not very threatening? (shadowhawk, wolverine, dragon, etc)... or the obvious hard hitter with gak for armor (rifleman, zeus, victor, cyclops etc)... and the final category, the 'all-arounder' kind of thing like a battlemaster or thunderbolt or orion or which is halfway decent at everything but not really good at anything either...

If I had my choice of 3025 mech and wanted to survive as a mechwarrior whether or not my lance survived or not... total self interest... I would be stomping around in a Shadowhawk too. And just leave when I run out of ammo, because I run fast enough. It's the mech that lives to fight another day.

Hold on did you mention dropping the LRM launcher on your family mech, have you any idea how tough it is to recalbrate new weaponry for a mech chassis, most custom jobs involve removing a laser and adding more armour or something like that. Here you want to completely redesign a mech removing a two ton missile module and its ammo bin in order to add a heavy autocannon. Will the software be able to cope, remember our software is black box its not designed for 'tweaks' like this. We could run tests but you would have to bring the mech to the factory and proably replace a lot of the daughtbaords in the cockpit. Has there ever been a refit kit for this kind of stuff. I know the Davions like to play with heavy autocannon and produce kits, but did they do so for the Shadowhawk, and its major house stuff anyway. way beyond anything a company or garriosn tech team can slip together.
Besides why removing the LRM and replace the autocannon with a heavier calibre anyway, thw ashadow Hawk is a very goosd blend of speed and utility, the pair of long range weapons gives it a good threat band. This is likely why your family has been able to keep them mech, and others like it such as ther Griffin. Were your ancestors Enforcer jocks you may well have been born to dispossessed parents

These are not omnis. They dont even have the benefit of recovered technology, any change is a major undertaking and all mechs are precious, some are merely more precious than others. You are a mechwarrior, you are the elite, your ride is a Shadow Hawk, fifty five tons of death to any who oppose you. Your only equal is another mechwarrior.
.

Cool text - really enjoyed that

Guitardian wrote:We used to just randomly draw who got what mech and just deal with it. For some reason (like low damage output?) I usually was happy to have the Shadowhawk because when there's 3 other more dangerous mechs on the board, like back-shotting jumpy lights or gun-heavy heavies and assaults... I was never a priority target. Actually its one of the only mechs I completely ran out of ammo (yes even the SRMs) and was still running around kicking at stuff and zapping away with the laser as the last mech in my lance, while the others all got gang raped one by one, all got gunned down. I left the battlefield after I realized that the other team's Locust had more firepower than me at that point (another low-priority survivor mech), but not after unloading every round of ammo I had and taking my plinky toll on them. So I guess its not such a bad thing to be a shadowhawk pilot. I wanted a Dragon for similar reasons but my friend always drew that one (I think he rigged the deck) and he had the same experience of people just not going after him much because ooohhh scary AC/5 and 10 LRMs just doesn't worry many heavy mechs... plus it can run around a lot and people just focus fire on the huge slow hard hitter heavy armored beast, that's a surer hit roll, or the back-threatening light that can go down to a couple of good shots.

Good 3025 play, but I wouldnt have tried to run from the Locust, you cant anyway unless you jump a long cliff. All that salvage and a Locust holds the spoils.

Guitardian wrote:
I think a hunchback would be a death sentence because everybody wants to bring it down as fast as possible, or a warhammer, awesome, panther, or other such high damage output mechs just begging to be mobbed. So drawing the Shadowhawk in multiplayer games is kind of a blessing because nobody really cares so much what you're doing but you do get those lucky hits from time to time and crit something or knock a head off and everyone including yourself is awestruck. Still, ammo runs out and you end up with just the ML and some decent armor and half-assed jets... time to go... live to fight another day

Speed is the major difference, mechwarrior families need a 5/8 design or faster, or deploy their mech in a heavy reseve unit. This is what most of the 'feudal' units were, fast skirmishers that wouldnt risk their assets beyond a certain points or noble heavy and assault mech battalions that were always the last in and first out.
All of those mechs mentioned above fall into the last category, except for the Panther which is in a category of its own. The Hunchback is a medium mech belonging as a backup beatstick in a heavy or assault lance, the rest are just bruisers.
the Panther is cheap its also a Combine mech, the samurai who owns it is expected to give his life, he is also expecting to have a mech replacement ready for his son when. lights are an exeption, they are expected to die, and the Panrther is an exception amongst lights as it his an honourary medium mech.

Guitardian wrote:
So if you could have 1 mech, 3025 canon, what would you want? The obvious first choice everyone wants an Awesome... but... when you play an 8 player game with 1 mech each, and psychology becomes a factor and you are looking out for just your own mech, what would you really prefer? The huge fire magnet that blows gak up like nobody's business (warhammer, awesome, hunchback), the dangerous backshooting mech (spider, wasp, locust, clint, cicada, grasshopper, quickdraw, etc... bugs), the fire support guy who just sits in a bush all game until it gets mobbed (archer, crusader, catapult, etc)... or the guy that nobody pays attention to because it's 1: hard to hit and 2: not very threatening? (shadowhawk, wolverine, dragon, etc)... or the obvious hard hitter with gak for armor (rifleman, zeus, victor, cyclops etc)... and the final category, the 'all-arounder' kind of thing like a battlemaster or thunderbolt or orion or which is halfway decent at everything but not really good at anything either...

As a family mech owner a Thunderbolt or Phoenix Hawk. The Thunderbolt is my choice of heavy sit in a reserve unit with other mech owning toffs mech. The Phoenix Hawk is a 'knights' mech. Though I am very tempted by the Quickdraw which is a blend of the two.

If I had my choice of 3025 mech and wanted to survive as a mechwarrior whether or not my lance survived or not... total self interest... I would be stomping around in a Shadowhawk too. And just leave when I run out of ammo, because I run fast enough. It's the mech that lives to fight another day.

In 3025 my personal 'Mech of choice would depend entirely on the weight class I have to work with.

Light: Tough choice. Perhaps a Commando, maybe a Firefly if I could get one.

Medium: Vindicator. When you absolutely need a 'Mech that can cover almost any situation.

Heavy: Probably the PPC armed Grasshopper.

Assault: Stalker would be my default choice, unless I could scrounge an Imp off of Wolf's Dragoons. And if not an Imp, maybe a Marauder II.

I really like backfiring mechs too... Quickdraw, Dragon, Battlemaster, etcetera with the butt-mounted lasers. I did well with those because it scared off the pesky bug mechs from trying to get a rear arc on me, so they would go after someone else instead. They usually lasted a long time.

Seriously the best way to play battletech is for everyone to have his own mech, form up lances, and duke it out from there. Because it does become that feudal self interest battle that way, instead of the 'master plan' type of game where both players control a whole force and think unlike a mechwarrior would think. It becomes far more interesting having to convince your team-mates to help your ass out of a bind at their own risk, but still pull off a lance vs lance win while everyone is really looking out for themselves. When your mech gets dead you go in the other room and watch star trek reruns and eat salsa waiting for the battle to play out.

Actually I met my first girlfriend by losing my Commando early in the game (another high output priority target mech) so I went to go hang out... and there was the dude who's house we were playing at, little sister also over in the next room, bored, waiting for the boys to finish being geeks. Best way to lose a mech is to get a first kiss out of it I guess... damn I miss being a 13 year old... The sweet innocent joys of life... YES! THEY KILLED MY COMMANDO! NOW I CAN GO HANG OUT WITH MIKE'S SISTER!