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htj wrote:Some things don't hold up with WYSIWYG though. How do you represent Sanguinary Guard with vanilla marines? Assault squads? So what are you assault squads? It's hard to do this without some lack of WYSIWYG. Especially, to take a current example, if your Tac marines with bolters are suddenly weilding force weapons and storm bolters. Not WYSIWIG, but only really a bad thing if you're not taking someone else's enjoyment into consideration.

I do not think it is too tough to do a good Every Marine force. Personally, my Sang Guard would use the actual SG models with appropriate chapter shoulder pads and helms. I am actually doing a UltraSmurf Honorguard force to Counts As Grey Knights. I plan on mixing GK weapons with Smurf kits and bits.

ChrisWWII wrote:and no reason why humans would be in Tau or Eldar armor.

This is what seriously annoys me - people complaining someone's army is unfluffy because it doesn't fit their idea of the fluff.

There are plenty of examples of Tau recruiting humans and bringing other races into their community and military is what they're all about. Vespids get Tau style armour, why wouldn't humans?


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htj wrote:Some things don't hold up with WYSIWYG though. How do you represent Sanguinary Guard with vanilla marines? Assault squads? So what are you assault squads? It's hard to do this without some lack of WYSIWYG.

A squad of marines with artificer armour, jump packs and two-handed power weapons? Shouldn't be too difficult. How do you tell your vanguard or honour guard from assault squads?

I agree, it's not too tough. It sounds like you put a lot of effort into your army, and making it representative of the rules you are using. So absolutely, in your case, Codex hopping is not a bad thing at all. Anyone who would complain about that, well, I suspect their complaint lies elsewhere in truth. Perhaps they resent the flexibility afforded to a marine player.

However, simple as it may seem, there are plenty out there who won't make the effort and will constantly use counts-as to jump in on any ruleset they want. Herein lies the real problem, and here is where a complaint would be justified.

Your army sounds interesting. Tell me, is it all Ultras? I'd be interested to see what you do with the GK kit bash. Any chance of a P&M thread?

Scott-S6 wrote:
This is what seriously annoys me - people complaining someone's army is unfluffy because it doesn't fit their idea of the fluff.

There are plenty of examples of Tau recruiting humans and bringing other races into their community and military is what they're all about. Vespids get Tau style armour, why wouldn't humans?

Only, it wasn't that the humans were part of the Tau Empire. If they were Gue'la Auxillaries, I'm all for Guardsmen in Tau armor. It makes sense there. What doesn't make sense to me about that is a random human world having humans in Tau or Eldar armor, or having Tau or Craftworld Eldar mercenaries. It's like turning around and saying that your Ultramarines fight side by side with Chaos. THere are some things that just don't happen.

Um, it was me that said that Scott-S6. SG may have been a bad example. Go with the GK thing instead. It works better.

In reading this, my army is a good example of what I think is ok. I have a Marine Chapter I made up of my own design. They are a gold metal color with a brown wash. I was running them as codex but have since started coverting them to BA. I bought the blood angels models for HQ's and Death Company but my tactical squads, Assualt squads, and vets are all ready the same. Most people i have talked to don't have a problem with it as alot of BA models wear gold armor as it is, my whole chapter does is all, with vets having black helmets. Nothing is count as and i don't proxy anything. Now trying to do this for Space wolves or anything else I don't think would work as the models just don't convert over to their codex, I just count them as an offshoot of the BA called bloodhounds, using a paw symbol with a blood drop underneath. Codex they were retrievers.

htj wrote:Um, it was me that said that Scott-S6. SG may have been a bad example. Go with the GK thing instead. It works better.

GK are a bit different - they are much more different than any of the other marine codexes which are all, essentially, just different organisations. It's pretty easy to both model and fluff a marine chapter using any of the marine codexes other than GKs (one or two very special units excepted)

To do a regular marine chapter with C:GK would require an awful lot of conversion to be WYSIWYG and would abuse the fluff really badly. The only fluffy counts-as that's springing to mind is thousand sons.


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ChrisWWII wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
This is what seriously annoys me - people complaining someone's army is unfluffy because it doesn't fit their idea of the fluff.

There are plenty of examples of Tau recruiting humans and bringing other races into their community and military is what they're all about. Vespids get Tau style armour, why wouldn't humans?

Only, it wasn't that the humans were part of the Tau Empire. If they were Gue'la Auxillaries, I'm all for Guardsmen in Tau armor. It makes sense there. What doesn't make sense to me about that is a random human world having humans in Tau or Eldar armor, or having Tau or Craftworld Eldar mercenaries. It's like turning around and saying that your Ultramarines fight side by side with Chaos. THere are some things that just don't happen.

Was it a loyal imperial world? If not, then I'm really not seeing the problem. Kroot and Eldar mercs fight for anyone. Guardsmen in a non-imperial world can have armour bought from wherever they buy it or made to look however they want. I agree that it sounds pretty unlikely but it's not impossible.

At least it was WYSIWYG.

ChrisWWII wrote:Only, it wasn't that the humans were part of the Tau Empire. If they were Gue'la Auxillaries, I'm all for Guardsmen in Tau armor. It makes sense there. What doesn't make sense to me about that is a random human world having humans in Tau or Eldar armor, or having Tau or Craftworld Eldar mercenaries. It's like turning around and saying that your Ultramarines fight side by side with Chaos. THere are some things that just don't happen.

Do you even comprehend the absurdity of this statement - especially the emboldened text - when describing a game set in a fictional place using fictional and fantastical races, creeds and creatures?
All of that and you manage to find something in it that doesn't make sense?
Seriously, man. It's getting a little deep there.
It is a game, the history and fiction of which the game manufacturers themselves change to suit their whims. I don't care if he finds a reason to use Ork rules with his Daemon models. It's a game. There's no sense that needs to be made of anything beyond the rules.


Eric

Scott-S6 wrote:
Was it a loyal imperial world? If not, then I'm really not seeing the problem. Kroot and Eldar mercs fight for anyone. Guardsmen in a non-imperial world can have armour bought from wherever they buy it or made to look however they want. I agree that it sounds pretty unlikely but it's not impossible.

At least it was WYSIWYG.

When I posted that, it seemed like he was talking about an Imperial world. He later said his planet was more an independent trade planet that solves most of the fluff issues (at least theoretically, I staill say it's damn unlikely and unfluffy a world will have Guardsmen in Tau and Eldar armor). Remember, back then he said it was Eldar Harlequins fighting alongside them too, and that is unfluffy. Harlequins may fight alongside Imperials, but they'd never fight under Imperial control.

Well, I have been lucky in that I have not had the displeasure of encountering this situation, but generally I agree with those who say that it is bad to codex hop.

This is where I am stealing the idea from: http://blameitonthedice.blogspot.com/2011/03/should-i-add-sprinkles-to-my-vanilla-or.html

My thoughts: http://meltaspam.blogspot.com/2011/04/counts-as-thoughts.html

MagickalMemories wrote:
Do you even comprehend the absurdity of this statement - especially the emboldened text - when describing a game set in a fictional place using fictional and fantastical races, creeds and creatures?
All of that and you manage to find something in it that doesn't make sense?
Seriously, man. It's getting a little deep there.
It is a game, the history and fiction of which the game manufacturers themselves change to suit their whims. I don't care if he finds a reason to use Ork rules with his Daemon models. It's a game. There's no sense that needs to be made of anything beyond the rules.
Eric

It may be absurd, but I got into 40k for the fluff. When I'm looking at 40k and fictional worlds as a whole, I practice 100% suspension of disbelief, that are supposed to have internal rules of logic and sense.

I like immersing myself in the setting, and if you don't think that's alright, well that's fine. Just don't look down at me because I take a different path towards looking at my plastic space men game. You may not care if anything makes sense beyond the rules, but I do.

So you'd be cool with me playing with my Necrons using Assault Marines sans 'packs as Flayed Ones, right?

I mean, its totally fluffy...

Glad to se that Necron-Blood Angel pic I uploaded is seeing the rounds...

And, no, no I wouldn't. Why? Because Necrons and Blood Angels do not fight along side each other regularly, they fought alongside one another ONCE, and unless we're doing a historical reenactment of that battle, it'd be unfluffy.

It'd be like saying that just because the Eldar helped the Imperium in the Gothic War, the Eldar and Imperium are best buddies. It's simply not the case.

McNs wrote:So you'd be cool with me playing with my Necrons using Assault Marines sans 'packs as Flayed Ones, right?

I mean, its totally fluffy...

Since that only happened on one specific occasion and is highly unlikely ever to happen again then sure - providing the necrons and marines are wearing all the correct markings for the units involved in that particular battle and there's tyranid-fighting in evidence on bases, etc.

Something happening once or a single example of something existing doesn't open the door to it cropping up all over. e.g. if a chapter only has three dreadnaughts then you better have a damn good story behind why all three are in that little battleforce.

Personally, I have no problem with codex hopping of any flavor, even xenos to marine or vice versa. But then, when I started out I wanted to use green army men instead of buying models. This stems mostly due to price. I'd really like to be able to play with every army, at any particular time. I might want Daemons on Wednesday, Necrons on Friday night, GK on Saturday, and Tau on Sunday. But buying all those armies is expensive, and the time investment in painting them is fairly prohibitive to having a life. So I'm all for proxy and counts as.

Gornall wrote:
Do you paint your minis with such a broad brush?

No, I like the W&N Series 7 #2.

ChrisWWII wrote:Glad to se that Necron-Blood Angel pic I uploaded is seeing the rounds...

And, no, no I wouldn't. Why? Because Necrons and Blood Angels do not fight along side each other regularly, they fought alongside one another ONCE, and unless we're doing a historical reenactment of that battle, it'd be unfluffy.

It'd be like saying that just because the Eldar helped the Imperium in the Gothic War, the Eldar and Imperium are best buddies. It's simply not the case.

My point was: even GW's official fluff can have "unfluffy" combinations.

Maybe Joe McOrk+Tau+Guard+Eldar is playing an army the ONE time they get together, as a group, to fight Chaos/Necrons/Mat Ward. Who knows?

I do agree that if someone slopped down 30 Boys, 5 Terminators (Mega-Armor Nobs), Fire Dragons (they're burna boys), and a Monolith (its a Battle Wagon), I'd be a bit confused. Especially if it was all unpainted or didn't look uniform.

The kid you were harping on claims to have given his models a unifying paint scheme, have army fluff, and have appropriate conversions. Just because its contrary to whats normally allowed in the fluff doesn't mean you should shoot it down as lazy/counts-as, etc etc etc.

Because, hey, maybe there'll be a Eldar/Tau/Guard threeway in the upcoming Tau Codex (especially if Ward wrote it)...

5 Terminators (Mega-Armor Nobs),

>_< i use terminators from an AoBR box as meganobs and they are unpainted... but i am planning to convert them into meganobs with some ork heads, plasticard and some nob box bits i have when i'm done with painting the latest group of 30 boys i am on now (primed black, green and first coat of gunmetal on weapons... few more colors and a final wash and i'll be on to termie-meganob convertion)

G00fySmiley wrote:5 Terminators (Mega-Armor Nobs),

>_< i use terminators from an AoBR box as meganobs and they are unpainted... but i am planning to convert them into meganobs with some ork heads, plasticard and some nob box bits i have when i'm done with painting the latest group of 30 boys i am on now (primed black, green and first coat of gunmetal on weapons... few more colors and a final wash and i'll be on to termie-meganob convertion)

Which is fine'n'dandy, as you're taking some effort to convert them.

true... btu for the past month and still today they are just boring grey terminators. i think poeple mostly give me the benefit of having played for less than 6 months and having a mostly painted army at this point... plus my wife coems with me and she's a tall thin leggy blonde... yea that probably helps more than the effor tin the painting come to think of it since she hangs out in the game tbale and sometimes rolls dice for me >_<

but yea codex hoppers i stand by my stance. let em hop around like little rabbits, just leaves mroe models in the used market when a new flavor of the week comes out for other players sticking with the army

ChrisWWII wrote:It may be absurd, but I got into 40k for the fluff. When I'm looking at 40k and fictional worlds as a whole, I practice 100% suspension of disbelief, that are supposed to have internal rules of logic and sense.

I like immersing myself in the setting, and if you don't think that's alright, well that's fine. Just don't look down at me because I take a different path towards looking at my plastic space men game. You may not care if anything makes sense beyond the rules, but I do.

I wasn't the one looking down. It was you.
You're passing judgement on people who don't meet the 'standards' you set forth and treating them like they're not as good for it.
*IF* I was going to look down at you for anything, *that* is what it would be for.

If you're practicing 100% suspension of disbelief, then how do you justify taking the time to roll dice? How do you explain that your armies aren't freaking out and taking Ld tests over the giant cubes falling from the skies and giant (obviously daemonic) hands reaching down to grab them, only to hurl them again?

You don't practice suspension of disbelief. You just want your "fluff" to match your army and expect others to do so, as well.

As for what armies side together matching established fluff... I'd wager that you don't meet your own standards there.
Ultramarines don't fight Ultramarines
GK's don't fight GK's
Tau don't fight Tau

...unless you're recreating battles from fluff, of course. In past writings they may have. They don't under "normal" circumstances, however. I don't know what army/armies you're playing currently, but I can't help but wonder if you refuse to play someone who's playing an army you feel wouldn't normally fight yours.

Eric

God... people way over exaggerate the BA/Necron thing to absurd levels. Fist bumping and butt slapping? It says outright they were too wrecked, tired and hurt to fight further.

McNs wrote:
The kid you were harping on claims to have given his models a unifying paint scheme, have army fluff, and have appropriate conversions. Just because its contrary to whats normally allowed in the fluff doesn't mean you should shoot it down as lazy/counts-as, etc etc etc.

Oh no, he's explained himself, I don't really mind him too much. His original post about his army caused me to rage, but he did explain it in the end, and with his fluff justification sounds much better. My problem is still people who just throw random thing together without care for fluff. Kroot mercs using 'Nid dex? Sounds interesting to me. Kroot mercs using Guard 'dex with Krootox = Leman RUss? Eh...not so much.

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't the one looking down. It was you.
You're passing judgement on people who don't meet the 'standards' you set forth and treating them like they're not as good for it.
*IF* I was going to look down at you for anything, *that* is what it would be for.

Wait wait wait. When on Earth did I pass judgement on someone just for not meeting my 'standards'? THe only time I can remember even complaining so far is about that Kroot+Eldar+Ork+Tau+Imperial thing, and even then I didn't 'pass judgement' I just said, off the cuff. 'THat doesn't sound very fluffy. What the hell made all this happen?'

If you're practicing 100% suspension of disbelief, then how do you justify taking the time to roll dice? How do you explain that your armies aren't freaking out and taking Ld tests over the giant cubes falling from the skies and giant (obviously daemonic) hands reaching down to grab them, only to hurl them again?

You don't practice suspension of disbelief. You just want your "fluff" to match your army and expect others to do so, as well.

Suspension of disbelief does not mean that I'm not playing the game! It just means that it is more than possible for me to look at what is happening on the table top as not just a game, but as something actually happening. No, I don't think that there are actually dice raining down on my Guardsmen that decide their faith, part of the suspension is that the dice don't exist. THe guy who shot a melta gun at a Land Raider an inch away and rolled a 1? His melta gun backfired and jammed at the worst possible moment, forcing him to take a minute to clear it.

I explain that they aren't freaking out and taking Ld test over the giant cubes and daemonic hands as they are hardened GUardsmen who know what they're fighting.

I practice suspension of disbelief when it comes to my 40k gaming. I look at the battlefield as a kind of movie unfolding. I like to imagine it that way, it makes the game more fun for me. Sorry, if you see it as just a game, I play 40k, cause it let's my imagination go a wandering with the game, and that's why I play Warhammer 40k, and not 'roll 100 dice to see if you get arbitrary values!'.

As for what armies side together matching established fluff... I'd wager that you don't meet your own standards there.

Part of what I love about 40k is that almost anything can be justified. GK fighting GK? Two Ordo Malleus Inquisitors end up clashing over something, and their attached retinues of GK end up skirmishing. Ultramarines vs. Ultramarines? Heresy/Alpha Legion. Tau vs. Tau? Farisght Enclaves.

There are still some guidelines that you can't pass and still claim to be 'fluffy'.

I don't know what army/armies you're playing currently, but I can't help but wonder if you refuse to play someone who's playing an army you feel wouldn't normally fight yours.

li

My sig lists exactly which armies I play. I play Imperial Guard, and Imperial Navy. I don't refuse games, just for fluff reasons, if someone brought in the most unfluffy army I would play it. I'd be annoyed by it, likely, but I'd play it. If I knew the person was a repeat offender who had used the same damn orks+tau+guard to represent Space Marines for the past 5 months, then I'd consider saying no to a game.

I'm not FAAC (fluff at all costs). I'm 'let's go blow some plastic dudes up!'. I PREFER fluffy games, but I won't rage over someone playing me with an unfluffy army.

I'd appreciate you stop making calls about my character now, if you please.

Thanks to those who are trying to steer the discussion back to what the OP (myself) originally asked.

However, let me put this out there. For those of us who are as/more interested in the specatacle than the game itself, could codex hopping be a distinctly good thing? When BA came out suddenly there was alot of red on the table (Lots of grey too, but that's another can-o-worms) For who are very game-oriented, a wider acceptance of codex hopping might give them more impetus to stick with, and possibly modify a bit, their existing army rather than throwing another army of the month on the table. This would please the spectacle oriented folks who feel like they're gonna puke if they see another red marine.

If you're gonna have to face a whole lot of the codex of the month perhaps a little variety in the minaitures used isn't all bad. For my part, if the weapons are WYSIWYG and it's easy to tell which units are which then let's play.

Eilif wrote:Thanks to those who are trying to steer the discussion back to what the OP (myself) originally asked.

However, let me put this out there. For those of us who are as/more interested in the specatacle than the game itself, could codex hopping be a distinctly good thing? When BA came out suddenly there was alot of red on the table (Lots of grey too, but that's another can-o-worms) For who are very game-oriented, a wider acceptance of codex hopping might give them more impetus to stick with, and possibly modify a bit, their existing army rather than throwing another army of the month on the table. This would please the spectacle oriented folks who feel like they're gonna puke if they see another red marine.

If you're gonna have to face a whole lot of the codex of the month perhaps a little variety in the minaitures used isn't all bad. For my part, if the weapons are WYSIWYG and it's easy to tell which units are which then let's play.

That's an interesting point. I know that playing different codexes with my UltraSmurfs (mostly Tactical Squad/Mech BA) has let me focus on painting new and different models such as the Stormraven, Sang Guard, and (in the near future) GKs and DKs rather than more rank and file troops and vehicles. That has translated into better painted units as I don't feel rushed to finish painting so I can field them. I have already started stripping and repainting my old Tactical Squads from when I first started playing to bring them up to the same level as my most recent models.


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Here's an example of my "Blue Angels lists. All codex marine units with the exception of my Counts As Corbulo.

Gornall wrote:[Here's an example of my "Blue Angels lists. All codex marine units with the exception of my Counts As Corbulo.

See, that's what I'm talking about. If you put down those figs, it would be perfectly clear what is what, and the one fig that isn't transferable, you built a cool conversion to represent.

That's the kind of think that every codex hopper should do. No shame in having just one space marine army, but if you want to codex hop then convert up the couple of units that are unique to the new codex or model a few figs to switch into your squads for weapons options that are different between the codicies.

Eilif wrote:

Gornall wrote:[Here's an example of my "Blue Angels lists. All codex marine units with the exception of my Counts As Corbulo.

See, that's what I'm talking about. If you put down those figs, it would be perfectly clear what is what, and the one fig that isn't transferable, you built a cool conversion to represent.

That's the kind of think that every codex hopper should do. No shame in having just one space marine army, but if you want to codex hop then convert up the couple of units that are unique to the new codex or model a few figs to switch into your squads for weapons options that are different between the codicies.

QFT. If everyone who changed Codices frequently did this then the term 'Codex Hopper' wouldn't be an insult.

Cottonjaw wrote:

My favorite new line to say, with the recent GK release is, "Well at least these marines are the right color" when staring at the grey plastic nightmare layed before me.

Black primer I refer to as "Black Crusade"

and of course the classic "Shouldn't your white scars be on bikes?" to marines primed white.

In fairness to these people, they could be play testing their armies in low level tournies so that they don't have to lovingly paint a figure only to find out that grenade launchers are crap so they have to rip off it's arms and replace them. I for one assembled my Valkyrie in one afternoon ( I love it sooo much!) and it took me a week to get the base colours down. It has now been a year and I am still adding shades and little scratches and conversions ( vendetta, various small things and a rear hatch mounted boltgun). The point is I love it and to have to remove it from my army after all that painting time would suck... Alot....

I have no problem with people who codex hop, in general. For me though my tolerance is largely limited on the players motivation. Doing it to try out the differences that's fine. Doing it because it fits you unique army idea also fine. Doing it because your codex is so grossly out of date, I'd even accept that. Its only when a player does it solely because they think it will give them the upper hand; at that point it wreaks of bad sportsmanship because it shows a sense of indifference towards those who are actually committed to that single particular army.