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mikhaila wrote:See, you just aren't thinking this through enough. By supporting GW, you support the growth of alternatives.

-Lonnie Mullins is at Wargames Factory

That might not be the best example.

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

I suggest playing more rules systems and looking at other companies then because I'm afraid GW really don't make the best models or rulesets, thats not just a GW hater saying that its pretty much a well knon fact by now, even by GW I'd think

Stella Cadente wrote:

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

I suggest playing more rules systems and looking at other companies then because I'm afraid GW really don't make the best models or rulesets, thats not just a GW hater saying that its pretty much a well knon fact by now, even by GW I'd think

Really? I didn't know it. And I buy miniatures from all over the place. Can't say as any company I buy from makes superior minis to GW. Maybe on an even footing, but not superior. I'll let you have rulesets though, as I don't have enough experience to comment on that issue.

I will continue to buy GW stuff, but not necessarily from GW.

I've been into GW since about 1989, and I have seen this company do many great things, but I have also seen it become the paranoid, insular, greedy & downright vindictive company that it is today.

It is not with rage, but with a deep sadness that GW will no longer be my number one choice when buying figures.


I will continue to buy BL novels as I love the fluff, but from Indies, Amazon or Waterstones.

I will probably buy the odd paint or wash (online retailers), but I will look more into Vallejo & P3.

Modelling supplies from local model shops or online retailers.

I will switch to other model lines. I already like the look of some of the land forces for Dystopian Wars, I want some FoW Vietnam stuff & maybe a few more German tanks, maybe some Black Scorpion undead pirates.

I may Keep all the stuff I have and work on more conversions, or I may sell most of it and put the money towards the above.

I am also seriously considering ditching my WD subscription -and I have every issue back to 136.

htj wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

I suggest playing more rules systems and looking at other companies then because I'm afraid GW really don't make the best models or rulesets, thats not just a GW hater saying that its pretty much a well knon fact by now, even by GW I'd think

Really? I didn't know it. And I buy miniatures from all over the place. Can't say as any company I buy from makes superior minis to GW. Maybe on an even footing, but not superior.

well I didn't say other companies produce superior models, victrix are probably the best out there and equal to GW in quality, but they win because its 60 models for the same price as a crummy tactical squad.

I dont know the reaction, if they care or not, if they trash the letter or read this pool but to be honest I have to say that as ceo any letter I would receive concerning 600 possible targets opinions that move inside the bubble that my company is in, even if biased, or not representative its 600 possible clients opinions here and I at least read the thing and reply.

You can say 600 is small beans but if my company relied only in word of mouth to pass the company image these internet 600 buggers would have a BIG importance for me.

Stella Cadente wrote:

htj wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

I suggest playing more rules systems and looking at other companies then because I'm afraid GW really don't make the best models or rulesets, thats not just a GW hater saying that its pretty much a well knon fact by now, even by GW I'd think

Really? I didn't know it. And I buy miniatures from all over the place. Can't say as any company I buy from makes superior minis to GW. Maybe on an even footing, but not superior.

well I didn't say other companies produce superior models, victrix are probably the best out there and equal to GW in quality, but they win because its 60 models for the same price as a crummy tactical squad.

That's fair enough. Although I do feel that GW's multipart plastic kits are the best out there. However, the cost does offset the quality in terms of intrinsic value. Of course, at that level it's all just opinion.

htj wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

htj wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

I suggest playing more rules systems and looking at other companies then because I'm afraid GW really don't make the best models or rulesets, thats not just a GW hater saying that its pretty much a well knon fact by now, even by GW I'd think

Really? I didn't know it. And I buy miniatures from all over the place. Can't say as any company I buy from makes superior minis to GW. Maybe on an even footing, but not superior.

well I didn't say other companies produce superior models, victrix are probably the best out there and equal to GW in quality, but they win because its 60 models for the same price as a crummy tactical squad.

That's fair enough. Although I do feel that GW's multipart plastic kits are the best out there. However, the cost does offset the quality in terms of intrinsic value. Of course, at that level it's all just opinion.

opinion indeed, as the idea of building 10 mens legs, torsos, arms, sholduers, weapons, backpacks, heads+other bits of no value to me is extremely tedious and takes more time than building 60 mens arms, heads and backpacks, which to me makes the superior multipart kit, no point having all those bits if by the end you want to curl up and die from boredom

precinctomega wrote:@MeanGreenStompa - Whilst I wish you were right that Dakka and other forums were representative of the gamer community, my own experience oas that we aren't. This is anecdotal, admittedly, but I am an area rep for the GCN and visit multiple clubs and events around my area as well as a few home groups, plus I run my own small miniatures and gaming company, so I think my experience is moderately representative.

Most gamers I meet are like Sam_theRelentless. They think either that GW is the only option (if it even occurred to them to wonder) or that, if they have heard of alternatives, that GW is the best. The fact that GW is best neither in terms of model quality nor game design is never revealed because they never ask.

I'm constantly amazed at new gamers I meet who think that there aren't any clubs in the area. There are six within 20 minute drive, most of which can be found by doing a Google search for "Cheltenham Gloucester Wargamin", yet hardly anyone looks.

As a GW shareholder and proponent of the hobby beyond GW, my main concern is that GW is positioning its entry price too high, such that it is becoming harder and harder to persuade parents that it is worth kids even starting. GW games are the best gateway drug on the market.

But, on the other hand, if GW does price itself out of the market, then maybe it will provide an opening for another company to exploit that position.

R.

Ah yes, the hordes of kids. I know and you are right, the 10 - 16 year old bracket is a large one for the games workshop stores and they have concentrated their attention there, but that pool is steadily decreasing.

GW captured a big chunk of that market around the time of pokemon and we saw it in the 'red age' of miniatures back around 2000, that was the 'baby boom' of GWs market and then was followed up with the LOTR boost. But that market has been dwindling ever since, especially as WOW and other mmos have taken a sizeable chunk of the target audience and provided them with an instant hit rather than the involved work that wargaming requires.

You make an excellent point, the price rise will also price parents of those children out of the market as well, because those parents are not interested in it and will consider buying their son or daughter a new PC or sports equipment or frankly any number of things better and cheaper than the current price of a complete 40k army.

Spending time in stores, what you hear from mum or dad on buying the boxed intro game is interest in occupying the child's time, learning maths, strategy and patience and not bothering the parent. If it costs 1k to get them an army, then the parent is better served getting them a brand new pc and a few games.

It may be that GW gets another booster of new blood with the Hobbit movies, but I don't think that will be anything like as many as LOTR or that it changes the longterm health of the company given the obscure business direction.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, best thing for GW IMO, is healthy competition to force some Darwinian changes on the company, especially on it's thinking at the top.

Nope, i shall merrily continue to buy from them.

yeah, this has been the last straw for me(of course the fact that the prices are just out of my finical reach is also a key point). I may buy second hand models, but I will never but directly from GW anymore. sadly this means I won't be finishing off my Lizardmen(could have used some Sallies), and my GF's Dwarves will just have to do without all the bells and whistles I wanted to get for her. as it stands this means I will have to change directions completely as I see very few models out there I actually like the look of(Mantic has nice models, but due to a very negative interaction I refuse to give them my business) so my fantasy armies will remain incomplete.

though I have started to go back older games I miss playing such as D&D 3.5 and Battletech, I have also picked up Flames of War WWII, and I am fighting the urge to start a new army for their Vietnam game.

I am also in the process of getting my local group to put the 40k aside and play these games as well, hopefully they will listen to reason and we can help but a dent into GW's side.

19 people love the cool-aid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again, best thing for GW IMO, is healthy competition to force some Darwinian changes on the company, especially on it's thinking at the top.

There is already healthy competition out there, and more show up every day. GW just refuses to accept/acknowledge it.

I think now that with all the threads on this subject and from evidence that came before. People will for the most part people will carry on as per usual.

People will spend X amount of their disposable income on miniatures and will just end up getting less for their money.

The only thing that may change is perhaps people will be less inclined to begin a new army or start the hobby in the first place.

GW will eventually put up the results of the financial year and most likely see around a 5% drop in profit, at least with the miniatures.

The only thing I think will make them more profitable is royalties from when space marine comes out, if it's any good they'll probably do ok and then dark millennium maybe next year will boost profits again.

So GW is not going to worry too much about the miniatures side of the business for long.


So in conclusion, miniatures 5% drop in sales, but profit up for next 2 years at least, from royalties.

I sure hope you're referring to something besides the resin models for your first point. Is resin cheaper than metal? Yes. But they didn't just replace that material, they revamped the molding process. The models are more expensive because the molding of them is more expensive.

I've been thinking about this pretty hard, and I'm staying on. Sure, they prices are getting higher and higher, but it's not like I'm forced to spend any more than I want to. At the end of the day, I like GW's minis, and I like GW's games. I don't like the company (who could) but I'm not going to punish myself but not allowing myself things I want out of spite. A considerable amount of my hobby budget goes elsewhere already, so overall I think I'm coming out alright on the deal.

jab4962 wrote:I sure hope you're referring to something besides the resin models for your first point. Is resin cheaper than metal? Yes. But they didn't just replace that material, they revamped the molding process. The models are more expensive because the molding of them is more expensive.

That's called initial outlay. If they reduced the price of the models, they'd sell more of them and rapidly compensate themselves for that outlay and retain customers they have now instead lost.

Given they are an established company, the initial outlay should have easily been countered by the reduction in cost of materials over a time period projection. They wouldn't have converted to resin if it was going to work out more expensive for them.

The price rise is greed.

I am still in as well. I hate the price increases, but I am too far invested in the game to just walk away. I may eventually start playing another game on top of 40k since the initial shock caused me to view some other miniature games and I am loving what I see (thanks Warmachine and Infinity).


Love the rules, love the game, love the players, hate some of the company decisions. Yep, that sums up GW for me.

precinctomega wrote:
Most gamers I meet are like Sam_theRelentless. They think either that GW is the only option (if it even occurred to them to wonder) or that, if they have heard of alternatives, that GW is the best. The fact that GW is best neither in terms of model quality nor game design is never revealed because they never ask.

Ignorance is not necessarily a bad thing...

Anyway, forget whether they're the best or not, because that can only be judged objectively.

Most gamers are like me because they stumble across the hobby for the first time in their lives, and what do they see? 40k, less often WHFB, but always GW. Especially in remote areas like Utapau and South Africa, where GW is by far the most well-advertised brand of miniatures. And by well-advertised I mean relatively.

I haven't tried to search for new game systems (and after a while on Dakka I am aware there are others, which many think are better) because I'm happy with what I've got. I like the hobby GW has created, and I'm not saying I'm not open to suggestions, but the point is that that that's what many gamers feel: they like what they have. If they're willing to pay the price for it, their problem. What I certainly don't like is GW's business practices, but it doesn't affect my hobby.

Why should it?

Sam__theRelentless wrote:

precinctomega wrote:
Most gamers I meet are like Sam_theRelentless. They think either that GW is the only option (if it even occurred to them to wonder) or that, if they have heard of alternatives, that GW is the best. The fact that GW is best neither in terms of model quality nor game design is never revealed because they never ask.

Ignorance is not necessarily a bad thing...

Anyway, forget whether they're the best or not, because that can only be judged objectively.

Most gamers are like me because they stumble across the hobby for the first time in their lives, and what do they see? 40k, less often WHFB, but always GW. Especially in remote areas like Utapau and South Africa, where GW is by far the most well-advertised brand of miniatures. And by well-advertised I mean relatively.

I haven't tried to search for new game systems (and after a while on Dakka I am aware there are others, which many think are better) because I'm happy with what I've got. I like the hobby GW has created, and I'm not saying I'm not open to suggestions, but the point is that that that's what many gamers feel: they like what they have. If they're willing to pay the price for it, their problem. What I certainly don't like is GW's business practices, but it doesn't affect my hobby.

Why should it?

It does not because your parents are able to afford it and obviously don't object to paying the prices. You are not paying for anything else nor are you an adult. I can see that you taking the title 'relentless' for your posting is apt, it is a shame you can't seem to include relevant content as well.

You are fervently in the target market category and have seemingly limitless amounts of money or no grasp on the notions of relative value, nor do you seem to care about that in regards purchasing a product.

Firstly not all parents are as wealthy or indulgent as yours appear to be and secondly, wait until you pay your own bills, thirdly, I don't imagine many of the 'rest of the world' gamers who used the Euro wholesalers to get their minis will be rallying behind your cheerleading...

I would suggest you cease the 'yeah but it's great stuff and i don't care about the price of it and am not interested in other stuff and i'm putting my fingers in my ears and shouting lalala' posts and either post some viable content or bow out, because your spamming the repeated message of 'I've just discovered this stuff and I'm gonna drown you all out with how awesome I think it is' is going to result in other posters delivering more than the light broadside I just gave you.

Learn to discuss or make your point and not to just post the same thing 10 times.

The business practices affect my hobby because they mean I can no longer afford to continue expanding it.

Love the Universe, love the minitures, love the game, love my army. Can I afford to keep it up? No.

I had three armies planned, (IG Armoured Company, TS Relictors, WHFB Vampire Counts) and have been looking at Inquisitor and Battlefleet Gothic. However, the prices mean I cannot indulge this hobby anymore.

Heck, its cheaper for me to expand my fencing and buy some quality kit than it is to buy a new GW army. Clarification edit: Roughly £250 for a complete set of top-of-the-range Leon Paul fencing kit.

CadianXV wrote:The business practices affect my hobby because they mean I can no longer afford to continue expanding it.

Love the Universe, love the minitures, love the game, love my army. Can I afford to keep it up? No.

I had three armies planned, (IG Armoured Company, TS Relictors, WHFB Vampire Counts) and have been looking at Inquisitor and Battlefleet Gothic. However, the prices mean I cannot indulge this hobby anymore.

Heck, its cheaper for me to expand my fencing and buy some quality kit than it is to buy a new GW army. Clarification edit: Roughly £250 for a complete set of top-of-the-range Leon Paul fencing kit.

At first I thought you mean't fencing as in around your house....I was going to say, GW really has put you off the hobby

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:

precinctomega wrote:
Most gamers I meet are like Sam_theRelentless. They think either that GW is the only option (if it even occurred to them to wonder) or that, if they have heard of alternatives, that GW is the best. The fact that GW is best neither in terms of model quality nor game design is never revealed because they never ask.

Ignorance is not necessarily a bad thing...

Anyway, forget whether they're the best or not, because that can only be judged objectively.

Most gamers are like me because they stumble across the hobby for the first time in their lives, and what do they see? 40k, less often WHFB, but always GW. Especially in remote areas like Utapau and South Africa, where GW is by far the most well-advertised brand of miniatures. And by well-advertised I mean relatively.

I haven't tried to search for new game systems (and after a while on Dakka I am aware there are others, which many think are better) because I'm happy with what I've got. I like the hobby GW has created, and I'm not saying I'm not open to suggestions, but the point is that that that's what many gamers feel: they like what they have. If they're willing to pay the price for it, their problem. What I certainly don't like is GW's business practices, but it doesn't affect my hobby.

Why should it?

It does not because your parents are able to afford it and obviously don't object to paying the prices. You are not paying for anything else nor are you an adult. I can see that you taking the title 'relentless' for your posting is apt, it is a shame you can't seem to include relevant content as well.

You are fervently in the target market category and have seemingly limitless amounts of money or no grasp on the notions of relative value, nor do you seem to care about that in regards purchasing a product.

Firstly not all parents are as wealthy or indulgent as yours appear to be and secondly, wait until you pay your own bills, thirdly, I don't imagine many of the 'rest of the world' gamers who used the Euro wholesalers to get their minis will be rallying behind your cheerleading...

I would suggest you cease the 'yeah but it's great stuff and i don't care about the price of it and am not interested in other stuff and i'm putting my fingers in my ears and shouting lalala' posts and either post some viable content or bow out, because your spamming the repeated message of 'I've just discovered this stuff and I'm gonna drown you all out with how awesome I think it is' is going to result in other posters delivering more than the light broadside I just gave you.

Learn to discuss or make your point and not to just post the same thing 10 times.

What? No, just because I'm young does not mean I don't buy my own miniatures. Ever wondered why I only have a <1000pts army, unpainted? It's because I have to pay for them myself. Gaming isn't even my greatest hobby, fencing swallows the rest of my income, and my parents' too. Besides, do you think I don't KNOW that I don't pay the bills yet? I understand that I cannot advise on or comment on things related to totaling up the income, I'm not stupid. Nevertheless, I feel the price changes etc. as well. Not as much as those of you paying their own bills, but that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to voice an opinion.

Regardless of how cool I think the game is, if it comes down to it I will choose my competitive fencing over Warhammer. Why?
Primarily because I have been doing it for longer.
Secondarily, because buying an FIE-approved foil from Leon Paul at 90 pounds is a lot more value for money (fun-wise, opportunity-wise, but maybe not durability-wise) than spending that same amount on plastic Marines, which is the problem with many people's finances right now.
This doesn't mean I am not entitled to believe certain things, namely the stuff I have been posting already, which I won't repost in case it offends you.

And how have I been posting the same point 10 times? I am posting with the same underlying motive and the same unshakable opinion, but the content discussed is different and relevant. It is exactly the same as what you have been doing, it's just that I'm not as good at disguising my feelings, on account of being relatively new to the whole forum environment thing. I apologize for any n00bness that was genuinely silly of me to post. But I am entitled to say how awesome it is just as much as the people who say it's not awesome are entitled to say the very opposite.

What if you were in my situation? I feel offended by the people who repeatedly say that "WE MUST ALL END GW'S REIGN BY NOT BUYING ANY MORE STUFF" becuase they feel I haven't gotten the message.

Now that I've given my opinion, I am going to be the bigger man, and I will bow out. Oh yeah, and I'm called "relentless" because I pride my determination, not my stubbornness. There's a separate USR for that.

Edit: CadianXV posted as I was writing this. Just like to point that out.

I will not buy anything from GW until they lower the prices back to 35$ for a tactical squad.
Also look at the price for this guy.......
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160096a

AlexHolker wrote:

mikhaila wrote:See, you just aren't thinking this through enough. By supporting GW, you support the growth of alternatives.

-Lonnie Mullins is at Wargames Factory

That might not be the best example.

When I'm not being totally serious, not using the best example is part of the fun.)

warboss wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are dozens of people who have 'quit' who ordered from online discounters before the embargo came in. We even had two whole threads on the subject of final purchases.

Yet y'all come after me?

Real cute...

It could because you have the highest number of posts complaining about it as well as the highest bile content... so when you place an order worth several hundred dollars despite all this, people take note that you scream "I WANT GW TO FAIL" but then your actions add the caveat of " right after my next order.... unless I need something later so then after that order in that case..."

Exactly.

CadianXV wrote:
I had three armies planned, (IG Armoured Company, TS Relictors, WHFB Vampire Counts) and have been looking at Inquisitor and Battlefleet Gothic. However, the prices mean I cannot indulge this hobby anymore.

Well, not sure about the Relictors, but if you're not going to be playing in a GW store...

IG Armoured Company:

£14.85 for 18 of these multipart soldiers including special weapons, at wayland games.


£21 for this heavy tank, choice of turret options

£18 for this troop transport, choice of turret options

£21 for this heavy tank, choice of turret options

All those here:
http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25vehicles.htm
with a load more light vehicles.

Vampires Counts:

That's 40 skeletons for £25

That's 40 'revenants' (armoured skeletons) for £25

That's 10 wraiths at £13

That's 30 zombies at £23

That's 20 ghouls for £15


Want some blood knights that put GW's to shame?
gamezone miniatures





each at £8.50 from Wayland Games, that's a total of £42.50 for those, instead of £61.50 for the GW ones.

Vampires to lead em all?


Leonora, £4.75 at Wayland Games


vampiress £9.35 at Wayland Games

And about a million more from Reaper and a host of other companies.


Both those armies are viable and I've been pondering them myself.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CadianXV wrote:
I had three armies planned, (IG Armoured Company, TS Relictors, WHFB Vampire Counts) and have been looking at Inquisitor and Battlefleet Gothic. However, the prices mean I cannot indulge this hobby anymore.

Well, not sure about the Relictors, but if you're not going to be playing in a GW store...

I sourced my entire tomb-kings army from other vendors. Easily done if you don't plan to play at GW or GW sponsored events.

I've never really liked the Warmachine minitures, or the sleekness of OldCrow vehicles. But those undead minitures are fantastic, particularly the 'Blood Knights'. Fits with the Dark Bretonian idea I had in my mind too.
See, this is what has been predicted actually happening. I am sorely tempted to switch over to these brand of minis, denying GW my custom. I'm a casual gamer anyway, so tourney legit mins are not a concern.

Thank you MGS for the links! Vandil, I'd be interested in seeing your TK. PM me if you upload them to the Gallery, would you?

I have cut back big time over the last year. This is the final nail in the coffin though. I am starting new games now and they won't even see GW paint. Time to switch over to P3

Dont buy any new GW stuff anymore due to the rises.

Pick up second hand on ebay/car boots to try and finish off what I already have.

But the recent changes were the last straw for me!


positive is its made me look into other games/models/systems and some are alot of fun!