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mwnciboo wrote:Can someone please enlighten me as to the Poor Quality rules that some people are alluding to?
If someone could give me a few examples.
Sure, where to start?
How about, a game that's advertised as being "True Line of Sight", where if you can see one model in a unit of 20, you can kill all 20. How is that True Line of Sight?
What about a unit with five heavy weapons, that's allowed to engage two targets each turn, costing less points than a unit that has four identical heavy weapons, and may only engage one target each turn? Oh, and the less expensive unit also gets to re-roll their night-fighting spotting distance as well.
Or the one that allows a unit to arm itself differently and allocate wounds all over the place?
The Space Wolf codex is a bit on the crazy side with Scouts with Special Weapons, and the best Tactical marines (Counter charge, Bolters + CC Weapon, 2 x special weapons). LF's are annoying, Fire control being a killer.
BA's are a PIAT as well with all the FNP that they get.
On the LOS and wounds issue, well you can argue all of this with other Games systems like FoW. It's a simulation, a tabletop representation. I don't think it's broken, so much as not how others would do it. I really (not sure why) don't get bothered enough to quit the hobby over it, maybe i'm not a true wargamer, i like collecting painting and going to tournaments. But I don't get bothered by too much detail, maybe that's why i don't follow religion (It doesn't bother me that i don't know why life developed on earth and not in other places, and I'm a Physicist so really i should be intrigued)
I think that hit/wound/armour save should be Hit/Armour Save/Wound but that's me e.g. A wound is only wound after it has defeated the armour, and sometimes a round can only just penetrate and so not have enough energy left to penetrate skin and tissue. But that's just me, i think that we cannot create a foolproof set of rules that can satisfy everything and everyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/23 21:15:53
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
candy.man wrote:In regards to encouraging angry customers to speak with Jervis face to face, that was a bad idea LOL. I can see the headlines now...
“A man in Nottingham was brutally assaulted by an angry mob in a popular local bar over recent controversial decisions made by miniatures company Gamesworkshop. It is believed the attack was instigated after CEO Mark Wells, encouraged customers to address their concerns face to face with head designer, Jervis Johnson”. Eye witnesses have reported that after the savage beatings, Mr Johnson was forcibly fed various products made by the company. Reports have advised that Mr Johnson is currently sitting in intensive care and is not expected to make a full recovery. No charges have been pressed at this stage”.
LMAO!!!
This made me LOL, but I was more refering to a disgruntled but calm and non-violent mob as oppose to one armed with crowbars, GW products and a spoon.
-Tom Leighton
- Ireland ETC - Eldar - 2016
-Former 17 year old intro welcomer for dank post count. Pls forgive me <3
Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't know what PP prices are because I've never looked at any of their products.
I do however know that the other miniatures companies I buy from, such as Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures, are cheaper by a margin of 25% to 75% compared to GW models on a one for one basis.
Okay. I don't know much about this historical lines, or how detailed they are. I do know that Hasslefree models are not as detailed as GW.
Here is the pic from the front page of their website:
They're not bad, but they're not as detailed. The top-left model is laughably simple. Neither of the right side models have any real detail, and even the pirate seems more like the old 1980's grenadier models than a current sculpt. I can see why they're 25% cheaper than a similarly sized GW model.
And, yes, you're right, there are cheaper companies, but there are also companies that cost more on a per-model basis than GW. Freebooter miniatures, a line that I adore, is typically 5-10% more expensive than GW. Their individual characters can hit $20 for a human-sized model, and the slightly-larger-than-human-sized are more. But look at the detail:
My point, however, is that you're continually harping on about how some other companies produce figures for less than GW. That's true. But these other companies produce figures for more than GW, and you're not considering the quality of the models. Maybe that's fair if you're only considering them game pieces, but I have shown, (with data, in other threads), that GWs prices are far from the most expensive on the market, and are, by no means, out of line for quality miniatures.
No offense, but the complaint about Hasslefree is profoundly misplaced, to the degree that it undermines the sincerity of your argument; to say "The top-left model is laughably simple" in the context of criticism is mind boggling, when that mini is clearly intended to ape a man in a featureless bodysuit.
Further, you make an unwarranted conflation: that of more/less detailed with high quality. High detail can, certainly, be present in models of high quality, but high detail is certainly not the sine qua non of high quality. To imagine that it is would propose that
is higher quality then
To be clear, I'm here pointing out that Nagash, sculpt of poo that he is, is quite detailed, while the superlative Ninja (from Corvus Belli) is excelent not because she is festooned with gegaws, but because of other elements.
Moreover, it should be pointed out that the original point was "other miniatures companies I buy from, such as Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures, are cheaper by a margin of 25% to 75% compared to GW models on a one for one basis", which was answered by claiming that Hasslefree minis were "less detailed", which by the end "you're not considering the quality of the models", implying that "Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures" are able to be cheaper because they are of lower quality. A point neither warranted nor supported, nor, indeed, at issue in the original statement.
The real question is why does GW charge so much more than smaller companies producing comparable minis? I don't think it has to do with the detail of the minis...
Buzzsaw wrote: No offense, but the complaint about Hasslefree is profoundly misplaced, to the degree that it undermines the sincerity of your argument; to say "The top-left model is laughably simple" in the context of criticism is mind boggling, when that mini is clearly intended to ape a man in a featureless bodysuit.
Okay, that doesn't explain the other two. I didn't go in-depth to pick any specific models, that's simply the image on the hasslefree front page.
Further, you make an unwarranted conflation: that of more/less detailed with high quality. High detail can, certainly, be present in models of high quality, but high detail is certainly not the sine qua non of high quality.
I accept this point. Perhaps I should clarify, it's not the amount of detail on the hasslefree miniatures that leads me to dismiss them as inferior, it's the quality of the details. The hasslefree sculpts are not as clean. They're not as crisp. They're not as high quality as the other company's models. They're just not.
Moreover, it should be pointed out that the original point was "other miniatures companies I buy from, such as Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures, are cheaper by a margin of 25% to 75% compared to GW models on a one for one basis", which was answered by claiming that Hasslefree minis were "less detailed", which by the end "you're not considering the quality of the models", implying that "Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures" are able to be cheaper because they are of lower quality. A point neither warranted nor supported, nor, indeed, at issue in the original statement.
Should I simply have replied that other miniature companies that I buy from, such as Freebooter, Avatars of War, or Studio McVey are more expensive than GW, with no understanding of why? Killkrazy's post was accurate, there are cheaper minis than GW, but it doesn't present the whole picture. And, when people buy miniatures to buy miniatures, instead of to think of them as game pieces, the quality of the model is a valid point of comparison. Model A might be cheaper, but model B is of higher quality. If you want cheap game tokens, buy A, if you want to paint a nice model, buy B. And this point is also directly connected to my prior statement that GW states only 1/3rd of their customers play the game, and I doubt that that whole third are buying their miniatures solely to use as game pieces. I know that I spend more time modelling and painting than I spend playing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/23 22:48:35
Brunius wrote:I'm sorry, if you people have to take into account the price of tin/plastic, then why do competitors such as privateer press still price their products lower?
Because they don't.
Except In Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Brazil etc.
To be honnest GW prices are only comparable to competitors in the US and Europe. So its fair to say that on the whole GW is significantly more expensive than similar models of equal quality for the vast majority of people on this planet.
For example the Infinity range is similar and often better in quality/detail than GW models. While also being marginaly cheaper. And thats in the US/Europe. Which makes it a hell of alot cheaper than GW for every one else.
I find the RRP in the UK to be mostly reasonable and would be happy to pay those prices. But since I can't, im going to keep wondering why competitors, such as privateer press, can price their products so much lower.
You can add Canada to that list as well. GW has "Screw Canada" pricing in effect that means GW plastics can be more than PP metals for some products. Another thing to remember when comparing prices is that many countries have the practice of including all applicable taxes in the final price. The US and Canada do not. People often look at Privateer's UK prices compared to GW's UK prices and see them looking pretty equal. But translate that after tax UK price into Canadian Dollars and then add our taxes and I'd still be getting a good 25-30% discount.
If GW wanted to be fair to all markets, they would sell all trade accounts on UK pricing less VAT & wholesale discount and let each local market discover the final market price in order to cover the higher costs of operating and shipping to their location. PP pretty much does this with their product (but in USD). The distributors take the product at PP's distributor pricing, pay for shipping, add their cut and offer it to the local Australian and Canadian stores.
In the UK, a local company casts up privateer's products and sells it at a price that is about the USD exchange + VAT. I just bought some cryx stuff from Wayland and payed a bit less as I would here thanks to their free shipping offer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/24 04:55:46
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Not to abandon my Aussie brothers, but I have to say that Canada has it even worse than we do. Oh sure, you have cheaper prices (there are few that suffer as badly as Oz when it comes to slowed pricing structures), but in Canada it's more blatant and insulting because of just how close you are to a place that has cheaper prices.
Unlike Oz/UK, Canada/USA is a far shorter journey, so the price difference between stores that could be 100 miles from one another is just balls-to-the-wall insane.
[EDIT]: Actually, that could be an interesting question. I'm sure GW stores aren't as prevalent in CA as they are in the US, but what are the two closest GW stores (ie. the two closest GW stores where one is in Canada, the other in the US). I'd be interested to see that figure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/24 05:33:04
The cost issue has been muddied a bit here. Try these examples which give a better comparison:
Perry Miniatures War of the Roses Billmen - £18 for 40 (£0.45 ea) GW Empire State Troops - £15.50 for 10 (£1.55 ea)
Both are multi-part 28mm plastic kits with very similar styling (real 15th century vs 'faux' 15th century), include command group, weapon options, etc. and the quality-of-sculpting argument holds no weight as the Perry's sculpt for GW as well as themselves.
Why do the GW ones cost over 3 times as much per model?
Mantic games Wraiths were £14 for 5 in metal (£2.80 ea), they change to resin and now cost £14 for 10 (£1.40 ea) GW Mandrakes were £18 for 5 metal (£3.60 ea), they change to resin and now cost £23 for 5 (£4.60 ea).
Why does one company move to a cheaper casting material and half the price per model, whilst GW does the same and increases the price per model by 28%?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/24 06:55:39
While you sleep, they'll be waiting...
Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme?
Buzzsaw said what I wanted to and managed to express it better that I could have done.
Detail is not necessarily a plus point in itself.
No doubt there are some models which are more expensive than GW, however most are cheaper.
GW's customers may include a lot of painters and modellers. GW actually sell the models as wargame pieces, not collector pieces, for what that is worth.
Each customer will have their own view on the quality versus price trade-off, of course.
Chimera_Calvin wrote:Why does one company move to a cheaper casting material and half the price per model, whilst GW does the same and increases the price per model by 28%?
Because GW produce the best miniature sculpts with the best state of the art machinery, with the best in field sculptor, with the best materials.
Chimera_Calvin wrote:Why does one company move to a cheaper casting material and half the price per model, whilst GW does the same and increases the price per model by 28%?
Because it's made of Finecast silly! We all know that stuff is both hard to source, difficult to make into mould correctly and requires extremely expensive and specialist equipment in order to make it into highly detailed (more than metal!) models. I mean - have you ever seen a Finecast models? They're easily the most high quality miniatures known to man. If you'd read any of GW's marketing material when they first came out, you'd know that.
So read up.
[EDIT]: Ah! Ninja'd by Lil' Luna!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/06/24 07:23:50
Chimera_Calvin wrote:...........................Why do the GW ones cost over 3 times as much per model?..................................
Spoiler:
Answer: Retail Chain. But we all knew that.
Other stuff we all know: GW models must cost less than any other simile, simply because of Economies of Scale, but use the margin generated to garner greater market presence. Dispite the fct that I virtually never go to a GW store (indeed many don't even have one nearby) I apreciate the benefits that this brings to the wider community. Ergo I can accept GWs pricing, well Wayland acually but you get the point.
A more intereting question for me, is why do other [Fantasy/SciFi] companies follow GWs suit when, despite more limited scope of their Economies of Scale, they lack a retail chain but still support similar prices
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/24 12:24:41
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
mwnciboo wrote:Can someone please enlighten me as to the Poor Quality rules that some people are alluding to?
If someone could give me a few examples.
Hmm, let me see, warhammer:
Magic - main problem is any wizard can roll 6 dice, he has a 50% chance of getting a double 6 and if its one of mega spells a lot of time its game over in a single turn, items/abilites that add to power/dispel pool are overpowered now with a 12 dice limit, Book of Hoeth, cupped hamds, infernal puppet.
Shooting - True line of site allows you to shoot through units basically because you can see one gets right led, its silly, template weapons, removing guess ranges, shooting in two ranks
Units - The horde rule, its stupid, now all you see is massive units of fun running at each other, flank is worthless thanks to steadfast (steadfast is one of the worse write rules I have seen)
Miovement - Random charges, yes the shuffle was bad in 7th but now dwarf can charge faster thh cavalry (it just looks silly)
combat - striking in I order, you combine this with random charges and it really doesn't matter who charges, you gain +1 combat res
WoC book - The chaos marks are poorly writtem, a unit of chaos marauders pays the same as a warshrine fir frenzy, warshrine gains 1 attack for 30pts, marauders usually gain 10
Their are more but I haven't slept since yesterday so my brain isn't at 100%
Chimera_Calvin wrote:...........................Why do the GW ones cost over 3 times as much per model?..................................
Spoiler:
Answer: Retail Chain. But we all knew that.
Other stuff we all know: GW models must cost less than any other simile, simply because of Economies of Scale, but use the margin generated to garner greater market presence. Dispite the fct that I virtually never go to a GW store (indeed many don't even have one nearby) I apreciate the benefits that this brings to the wider community. Ergo I can accept GWs pricing, well Wayland acually but you get the point.
A more intereting question for me, is why do other [Fantasy/SciFi] companies follow GWs suit when, despite more limited scope of their Economies of Scale, they lack a retail chain but still support similar prices
There isn't one single reason but here are some points to consider.
1. Every company has its own cost structure, which is usually reflected in retail prices. Economies of scale are one factor in this.
2. Companies often price their products by comparison with their competitors' products. If GW establish the idea in the market place that the correct price of a single infantry model is £8, and £12 for a cavalry, then other companies can price their models at £6 and £9 and look cheap in comparison.
3. Various historical ranges are half to one quarter the price of comparable GW. Single infantry models range from 30-40p for plastic to £1.50 for metal.
4. SF and Fantasy models tend to be more expensive than Historicals, possibly reflecting my point no.2. That said, Hasslefree models are £3.50 to £4.50 except for the large ones.
Kilkrazy wrote:3. Various historical ranges are half to one quarter the price of comparable GW. Single infantry models range from 30-40p for plastic to £1.50 for metal.
And to add to this, a War of the Roses Billman is a War of the Roses Billman. There are many historical companies that produce these, and they can be used in dozens of different rule sets. The competition helps to set and maintain the lower prices because people can shop around for minis that they like, that are cheap, that are more expensive, whatever.
I recently started Napoleonics in 15mm, and research says that AB has the 'best' minis, but at 15mm they cost $.80 a model. I can buy BattleHonors (which I prefer) for 50 infantry for $12 ($.24 per model). Significantly cheaper. Others would gladly buy AB.
With GW, if you like the aesthetic, play in stricter tournaments, then you are stuck with GW models (and prices). If you play at a club, then you can use whatever you want. Other companies, who really are not competitors to GW (i.e. GW = sci-fi/fantasy, PP=steampunk/fantasy) see what the big fish can charge, and then charge the same or less. And people are free to buy and pay whatever.
On topic, GW have their own ideas about what they're doing, which makes sense to someone (one would hope). Of course, with the strategic course shifts every so many months (DA style codexes, now GK style codexes; no WD rules, now WD rules; streamlined with limited options, now total options, etc.) one wonders who really is in control. Could the residents be running the asylum?
(edited for clarity)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/24 13:23:43
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
Chimera_Calvin wrote:...........................Why do the GW ones cost over 3 times as much per model?..................................
Spoiler:
Answer: Retail Chain. But we all knew that.
Other stuff we all know: GW models must cost less than any other simile, simply because of Economies of Scale, but use the margin generated to garner greater market presence. Dispite the fct that I virtually never go to a GW store (indeed many don't even have one nearby) I apreciate the benefits that this brings to the wider community. Ergo I can accept GWs pricing, well Wayland acually but you get the point.
A more intereting question for me, is why do other [Fantasy/SciFi] companies follow GWs suit when, despite more limited scope of their Economies of Scale, they lack a retail chain but still support similar prices
There isn't one single reason but here are some points to consider.
....................
2. Companies often price their products by comparison with their competitors' products. If GW establish the idea in the market place that the correct price of a single infantry model is £8, and £12 for a cavalry, then other companies can price their models at £6 and £9 and look cheap in comparison.
3. Various historical ranges are half to one quarter the price of comparable GW. Single infantry models range from 30-40p for plastic to £1.50 for metal.
.............................................
This is what I was getting at.
2. This should be enough for most to rage about but I often find it curious that only GW get most of that ire. Battlefront sometimes gets something similar with the WW2 crowd. But then GW do go that extra mile to be a bit annoying!
3. The historical element of the hobby, purely by being in existence before GW, do not see themselves comparatively to their product, as well as the obvious differences in ranges. I would also add that being more diverse, long lived and traditional in their approach they are less inclined towards this sort of behaviour as well.
My point really was that while GW are corporate, what makes be ponder are the non-corporate companies behaving so slavishly to the example set by said Evil Empire (or should that be EEEEvil EEEEmpire to use an internet meme that I hear is very popular ).
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
H.B.M.C. wrote:Not to abandon my Aussie brothers, but I have to say that Canada has it even worse than we do. Oh sure, you have cheaper prices (there are few that suffer as badly as Oz when it comes to slowed pricing structures), but in Canada it's more blatant and insulting because of just how close you are to a place that has cheaper prices.
The stuff sent up to Canada comes from the same Memphis factory. And as for the higher shipping costs, it's negligible given the carrier they use. I've done a lot of importing from the US and the cost of sending a few boxes by ground from the US to Canada is maybe $5 more.
As a Canadian though, I will never say we have it worse than Australia though. We're half way between you an the UK as far as prices go and I've taken to leaving GW's site on Australia as my country just to see the sticker shock if I ever go there from a link here on Dakka or something.
[EDIT]: Actually, that could be an interesting question. I'm sure GW stores aren't as prevalent in CA as they are in the US, but what are the two closest GW stores (ie. the two closest GW stores where one is in Canada, the other in the US). I'd be interested to see that figure.
The one in Surrey, British Columbia and then one in Washington state. Or maybe Windsor and Detroit?
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
I'd been thinking about buying the Fantasy Rulebook for a couple of months, but my choice was paying way too much ($70 Canadian) for a massive tome that weighed more than my army (which annoys the helloutta me at 40k tourneys), or buying the much-preferred mini-rulebook in the Isle o' Blood set for $130, which was completely out of my budget.
Then I went to London two months ago for my anniversary, and decided to pop into a GW store to check things out. I ended up buying the Isle o' Blood set for 50 pounds, about $75 Canadian. After a bit of surgery I had the box condensed to half its length and in my luggage with some great plastic bitz for my dark elves.
H.B.M.C. wrote:[EDIT]: Actually, that could be an interesting question. I'm sure GW stores aren't as prevalent in CA as they are in the US, but what are the two closest GW stores (ie. the two closest GW stores where one is in Canada, the other in the US). I'd be interested to see that figure.
Here you go: Not sure if the Vancouver West one is still in operation. Discounts the up to +/- hours that you will wait at the border crossing. Depending on when you cross, YMMV.
GW London ON, Canada and GW Hampton Village MI, USA are 2 hours 10 mintues apart. (I've done this crossing many times - if you hit it at the right time, you'll be waiting about 10 minutes each way.)
GW Vancouver West BC, Canada and the Marysville Store WA, USA are 2 hours 17 minutes apart.
Of course, considering that US GW prices are amoung the lowest in the world (relatively), and Neil (The War Store) discounts off US MSRP... AND delivers to my door without needing to drive across the border... WIN!
-edit- Heck, at the worst of times when GW Canada was roughly 1.5x the cost of the US MSRP, Neil's everyday price was cheaper than the LFGS's wholesale prices from GW direct.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/06/24 17:34:56
Overall, the number of high quality sculpts that GW makes, of vehicles characters and troops, is far beyond that of the rest of their competitors. Sure, some other companies produce a handful of sculpts which compare well or even favourably, but the majority of their sculpts are equal or more likely below the quality of most GW models. There are very very few companies that mass produce plastic (or even metal) rank+file troops in the quantity and quality of GW core troops (of which nearly every army has 2+ boxes), and most of them are single-part, not multi-part and multi-pose. Again, exceptions do exist (most notably Perry Miniatures, who ironically were/are also GW sculptors).
GW has a few inter-related advantages that let them jack the price up:
1) Sci-fi/Fantasy settings generally have a very set aesthetic. Put LOTR elves down next to WHFB orcs and it is jarring. They have a natural monopoly on products to do with their universes, and so if you want to play their games, you must buy their models.
2) GW IP is quite compelling. Most people playing 40k do it because they like 40k, not because they like wargaming, if you know what I mean.
3) Historicals, and generics, have a lot more competition than Sci-fi. A 28mm Allied Parachutist is a 28mm Allied Parachutist (except of course when he is one from 1943 instead of 1942 and thus has different shaped buttons and longer socks) and is not protectable; as such, there is much much more competition driving prices down.
Other companies producing decently high quality minis are pricing them at around GW prices. As someone said above, I think it is more likely that they are basing their prices off GW's prices rather than inventing their own pricing model. Looking at many Reaper or Hasslefree sculpts they can get very cheap - or some companies like AoW are more expensive than GW. GW is obviously placing a tax on their miniatures so that they will support the retail chain - which seems like fairly backwards marketing to some, but then again GW have built the only international, readily available, played-in-high-street-malls wargames company off the back of this model so it is possible that they have good reasons behind what they are doing. The good thing for us is that Mark Wells has actually taken time to give a marginally personal reply to people's concerns, which means he has read and understood the concerns of the customer base even if he does not agree with them. The market has a very effective way of punishing companies who do not perform well for their customers though, so it might behove them to put some weight to our words.
Trasvi wrote:
GW is obviously placing a tax on their miniatures so that they will support the retail chain - which seems like fairly backwards marketing to some, but then again GW have built the only international, readily available, played-in-high-street-malls wargames company off the back of this model so it is possible that they have good reasons behind what they are doing.
I'll let Pumbagor do my facial expression:
I don't "played-in-high-street-malls" is really a boon to the consumer. To GW? Sure, but frankly I could give a gak.
But like you said: vote with your wallet. I already am.
keezus wrote:Here you go: Not sure if the Vancouver West one is still in operation. Discounts the up to +/- hours that you will wait at the border crossing. Depending on when you cross, YMMV.
GW London ON, Canada and GW Hampton Village MI, USA are 2 hours 10 mintues apart. (I've done this crossing many times - if you hit it at the right time, you'll be waiting about 10 minutes each way.)
GW Vancouver West BC, Canada and the Marysville Store WA, USA are 2 hours 17 minutes apart.
Thanks for the answer. That's very interesting actually. But a follow-up:
You don't happen to know the rough distances in either miles or km from one another? Even their addresses so I can plug them into Google Maps will do. I want to see if it's the same distance between, say, the Sydney store and the Newcastle store, which are in the same state here, and would be about that time apart if you drove (no boarder crossing required obviously!).
Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013