Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

warboss wrote:If he follows your advice, he's absolutely excluding people (which he has every right to do).

I don't see what the problem is.

I like it when more people play games that I play. Making the game more accessible encourages more people to play the game.

Others prefer to play a more elite hobby game (even if it's only marginally more elite, I'll admit, seeing a well painted army is nice) where there are certain minimum requirements to participate.

These two groups are only mutually exclusive if they insist on comingling.

biccat wrote: Making the game more accessible encourages more people to play the game.
.

Actually, many store owners I have met say that events with fully painted armies attract more newcomers to play the game and sell more models than the times where unpainted greys reign supreme. Which is why I feel prime time like an all day event on a weekend where you take up all of his real estate with our game, we should be good stewards of the space he pays rent on. club night on a weekday after work where there is minimal street traffic occurs where there is less focus on selling product.

This is why I always paint my figures when gaming in public and fully understand and support why all day events on saturday or sunday which are bumping other games out of gaming space that it is perfectly reasonable to expect minimum requirements. Lower standards does not always encourage more people to play the game, just makes many of the people already there continue to play the game. Depending on the store, this could be good or bad if the local group pays where they play or not. Owners know what is best for their store which is why if/when they require a minimal standard, I support them. I don’t feel one weekend a month of roll out your painted is unfair when the rest of the time is greys.

I imagine just as many potential newcomers are put off by the thought of having to paint one hundred figures as there are put off by the thought of playing against a grey army. Although, I fully agree that store owners and event organizers should be free to use their time/space as they think suits their interests best.

helium42 wrote:I imagine just as many potential newcomers are put off by the thought of having to paint one hundred figures as there are put off by the thought of playing against a grey army.

They may be put off by the thought of painting once in, but there's no way a sea of gray is going to attract people the way 2 painted forces displayed and/or facing off is.

People are visually attracted to colors, it's a fact of biology.

Platuan4th wrote:

helium42 wrote:I imagine just as many potential newcomers are put off by the thought of having to paint one hundred figures as there are put off by the thought of playing against a grey army.

They may be put off by the thought of painting once in, but there's no way a sea of gray is going to attract people the way 2 painted forces displayed and/or facing off is.

People are visually attracted to colors, it's a fact of biology.

I disagree, but then neither of us have any way to prove our points.

helium42 wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

helium42 wrote:I imagine just as many potential newcomers are put off by the thought of having to paint one hundred figures as there are put off by the thought of playing against a grey army.

They may be put off by the thought of painting once in, but there's no way a sea of gray is going to attract people the way 2 painted forces displayed and/or facing off is.

People are visually attracted to colors, it's a fact of biology.

I disagree, but then neither of us have any way to prove our points.

Actually, we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_psychology

Studies have been done that show color affects human behavior and how things are perceived.

In addition, it has been shown that what colors and their brightness a person is wearing can and does affect how attractive the opposite sex finds them.

We are trained by society and hard-wired by biology to find colors and certain combinations of colors more appealing.

Platuan4th wrote:

helium42 wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

helium42 wrote:I imagine just as many potential newcomers are put off by the thought of having to paint one hundred figures as there are put off by the thought of playing against a grey army.

They may be put off by the thought of painting once in, but there's no way a sea of gray is going to attract people the way 2 painted forces displayed and/or facing off is.

People are visually attracted to colors, it's a fact of biology.

I disagree, but then neither of us have any way to prove our points.

Actually, we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_psychology

Studies have been done that show color affects human behavior and how things are perceived.

In addition, it has been shown that what colors and their brightness a person is wearing can and does affect how attractive the opposite sex finds them.

We are trained by society and hard-wired by biology to find colors and certain combinations of colors more appealing.

This is great information but holds no weight. Unless you can show a study that cool models dont attract people then your one sided fact proves nothing beyond people like shiny things.

People are also attracted to things that are different, such as conversions, or warhammer in general. In addition, people are attracted to colors. What happens if they are not attracted to the colors your army is painted to. I like blue... but I am not gonna paint my tyranids, necrons, daemons, or in fantasy my vampire counts (works for ethereals) and my tomb kings. I could include blue in all these armies and hell they might even look good but if you like red well then .

Miniatures wargaming has always been as much about the look and feel as it is about the tactics and gameplay. As someone said before, if you're going to spend the money on these nice figures, why not spend the time to complete them?

If we were just in this for the tactics and competition, video games, Chess, and hex & chit wargames are always there and don't ask for any painting at all.

I don't mean to sound intolerant in any way; folks are absolutely entitled to play with unpainted plastic if that's what they enjoy, but I do think they're rather missing part of the point and a big part of the enjoyment of the hobby. When I first got in I was all about the game and didn't care to paint. Even today I procrastinate on my painting and tend to do it in intense, extended sessions leading up to an event. But I take a lot of pride in how the stuff comes out and I enjoy using my painted stuff WAY more than pushing unpainted or primed minis around the table. I take genuine pleasure in being able to share my work with others and show off my nice stuff with opponents, especially strangers at tournaments who haven't see it before. There's a whole 'nother level of enjoyment there in admiring your opponent's work and taking pride in your own.

I do recognize and acknowledge the difficulty and effort you have to invest to become a good painter (becoming a passable one is not difficult at all, but painting does require effort). But then, most hobbies require work and effort. And the more you put in, typically the more enjoyment you get out. The beauty of this hobby is that we get to engage our planning and number-crunching, strategic brains with army list building. Our tactical and competive minds with the game itself. Our tinkering and creative sides with conversions, terrain and model building. Our analytical and forensic side in understanding and debating arcane points of the rules. Our artistic and craft side with painting. Our appreciation for art and visual spectable with playing a game with and against nice, painted forces. And it all comes together in this mutually-feeding loop in which they reinforce one another, and at any point when you're less into one aspect you can still enjoy the others. This is probably a large part of why I've stayed so engaged with it for more than a dozen years, now. Playing hundreds and hundreds of games in that time, attending scores of tournaments and leagues, making hundreds or thousands of army lists, engaging in thousands of rules discussions, and painting hundreds of figures.

Maybe I'm coming off as "Nerd Dad" telling the kids they should brush their teeth, exercise, and do their homework because all those things are good for them and will increase their happiness and pleasure in the long run. And I think it's appropriate for the showcases of our hobby to make sure all the aspects are accounted for.

Mannahnin wrote:Miniatures wargaming has always been as much about the look and feel as it is about the tactics and gameplay. As someone said before, if you're going to spend the money on these nice figures, why not spend the time to complete them?

If we were just in this for the tactics and competition, video games, Chess, and hex & chit wargames are always there and don't ask for any painting at all.

I don't mean to sound intolerant in any way; folks are absolutely entitled to play with unpainted plastic if that's what they enjoy, but I do think they're rather missing part of the point and a big part of the enjoyment of the hobby. When I first got in I was all about the game and didn't care to paint. Even today I procrastinate on my painting and tend to do it in intense, extended sessions leading up to an event. But I take a lot of pride in how the stuff comes out and I enjoy using my painted stuff WAY more than pushing unpainted or primed minis around the table. I take genuine pleasure in being able to share my work with others and show off my nice stuff with opponents, especially strangers at tournaments who haven't see it before. There's a whole 'nother level of enjoyment there in admiring your opponent's work and taking pride in your own.

I do recognize and acknowledge the difficulty and effort you have to invest to become a good painter (becoming a passable one is not difficult at all, but painting does require effort). But then, most hobbies require work and effort. And the more you put in, typically the more enjoyment you get out. The beauty of this hobby is that we get to engage our planning and number-crunching, strategic brains with army list building. Our tactical and competive minds with the game itself. Our tinkering and creative sides with conversions, terrain and model building. Our analytical and forensic side in understanding and debating arcane points of the rules. Our artistic and craft side with painting. Our appreciation for art and visual spectable with playing a game with and against nice, painted forces. And it all comes together in this mutually-feeding loop in which they reinforce one another, and at any point when you're less into one aspect you can still enjoy the others. This is probably a large part of why I've stayed so engaged with it for more than a dozen years, now. Playing hundreds and hundreds of games in that time, attending scores of tournaments and leagues, making hundreds or thousands of army lists, engaging in thousands of rules discussions, and painting hundreds of figures.

Maybe I'm coming off as "Nerd Dad" telling the kids they should brush their teeth, exercise, and do their homework because all those things are good for them and will increase their happiness and pleasure in the long run. And I think it's appropriate for the showcases of our hobby to make sure all the aspects are accounted for.

An awesome summation of the game big guy.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
There is a 4th group that just want beer!

Come to Astronomi-con Toronto then! Last year the venue had an open bar.

Playing & drinking at the same time?! Yes please!

Wow, a actual good reason to visit 'The Center of the Universe' Beer & 40k where made to go together.

Mannahnin wrote:Miniatures wargaming has always been as much about the look and feel as it is about the tactics and gameplay. As someone said before, if you're going to spend the money on these nice figures, why not spend the time to complete them?

If we were just in this for the tactics and competition, video games, Chess, and hex & chit wargames are always there and don't ask for any painting at all.

I don't mean to sound intolerant in any way; folks are absolutely entitled to play with unpainted plastic if that's what they enjoy, but I do think they're rather missing part of the point and a big part of the enjoyment of the hobby. When I first got in I was all about the game and didn't care to paint. Even today I procrastinate on my painting and tend to do it in intense, extended sessions leading up to an event. But I take a lot of pride in how the stuff comes out and I enjoy using my painted stuff WAY more than pushing unpainted or primed minis around the table. I take genuine pleasure in being able to share my work with others and show off my nice stuff with opponents, especially strangers at tournaments who haven't see it before. There's a whole 'nother level of enjoyment there in admiring your opponent's work and taking pride in your own.

I do recognize and acknowledge the difficulty and effort you have to invest to become a good painter (becoming a passable one is not difficult at all, but painting does require effort). But then, most hobbies require work and effort. And the more you put in, typically the more enjoyment you get out. The beauty of this hobby is that we get to engage our planning and number-crunching, strategic brains with army list building. Our tactical and competive minds with the game itself. Our tinkering and creative sides with conversions, terrain and model building. Our analytical and forensic side in understanding and debating arcane points of the rules. Our artistic and craft side with painting. Our appreciation for art and visual spectable with playing a game with and against nice, painted forces. And it all comes together in this mutually-feeding loop in which they reinforce one another, and at any point when you're less into one aspect you can still enjoy the others. This is probably a large part of why I've stayed so engaged with it for more than a dozen years, now. Playing hundreds and hundreds of games in that time, attending scores of tournaments and leagues, making hundreds or thousands of army lists, engaging in thousands of rules discussions, and painting hundreds of figures.

Maybe I'm coming off as "Nerd Dad" telling the kids they should brush their teeth, exercise, and do their homework because all those things are good for them and will increase their happiness and pleasure in the long run. And I think it's appropriate for the showcases of our hobby to make sure all the aspects are accounted for.

Thanks, that is probably the best post I have read on the forum this week. Very well put.

Outstanding post Mannahnin.

It's easy to say that painting is apart of the hobby and thus should be apart of the tournaments whenver you are a great painter. Me I can get some decent colors but they don't look that good. I really can't stand the fact that if you win all of your games you can still loose because of your painting or sportsmanship scores. Most people that loose will be more inclined to lower your scores. I'm not saying they all will but some people will. Now am I saying that every tourney should be all plastic grey? No. Probably the best balance is to use the painting/sportsmanship scores as a tie breaker so if to guys go 4-1 without loosing to each other then who painted better or played more sportsman like would apply.

Am I going to miss Ardboyz yeah. Some of the missions I won't be sad to see leave like "Kill the Fast Ones."

Akroma06, all the tourneys I have been to locally or have read about on sites such as this normally have a top prize for Best General that does not include painting or sportsmanship, so the best player wins this spot. Then Best Overall includes the battle scores along with painting and sportsmanship and possibly comp score if used for a category to include all parts of the hobby. Do the tournaments run in your area only have one top spot and that includes rating everything? If not than you should be able to win regardless of poor painting ability, etc.

I agree that sportsmanship, depending how it is done, can often be abused but if your area only has tournaments with a Best Overall category you should try to convince them to include a Best General category as well (maybe you have and its a no-go) because I would agree that that situation would put some players at a constant disadvantage and detract from their playing experience.

Been following this for a bit and its a bit of a waste of time really. There are obviously several groups who all understand that the other groups exist what stance is taken for what reason. I guess it’s just a chance to

Personally, I travel a bit so have had to sell previously painted armies. After the effort put in, I find it difficult to redo that effort on a new army as I know what will happen to it in the end. I'm a believer in WYSIWYG but that's about as far as I go. There are no Big Mac burger containers as Land Raiders, but its bare bones. Do my opponents care? Most of the time we play friends, they may give you stick for not painting fast, but it really should mainly focus around the interaction between friends/people than the game anyway. You could proxy your whole army and it shouldn't matter because painted or not, they are still toy soldiers and you are hanging out with a buddy. You could just as easily go play darts, pool, beer pong etc.

As for tournaments, I seem to do the minimum required. In Ireland it was 3 colours minimum, so I did. In China it is 20-30% reasonable proxy limit with no painting required, so I do.

I think there is no argument that everyone would rather play with nice looking armies on both sides. However, life gets in the way. Can I play with the models on the sprues? No. But once I have them functional, I can do other things in my life, while still playing the game when I want, and I don't need to put the time into the painting if I can't spare it.

I understand the joy that can come with the painting, but it's difficult to motivate myself to do it. A 3 colour minimum seems to be something that has worked in the past., also seeing the Best General result compared to the Overall result and picking up the points where easy gains can be made. Eg, bases reasonable, at least 3 conversions, detail work done etc. This made me deliberately do these things to gain the 27/30 rather than the 23/30 to raise my score. And really, I believe that’s a good thing.

As for Ard boyz;

I had the pleasure of attending in Georgia last year. I was over for a friend’s wedding and dropped by the store near St Stephens Island (Jacksonville?). The store owner lent me a well painted 4th Ed Nid army (eek). All of the armies there were well painted, there were a few done up drop pods but overall it was mostly high quality. Some people just like to build, paint and play large armies.

If the demand for ‘Ard Boys is great enough, someone should organize the same event with a different name and charge an entrance fee. It wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ventus wrote:Akroma06, all the tourneys I have been to locally or have read about on sites such as this normally have a top prize for Best General that does not include painting or sportsmanship, so the best player wins this spot. Then Best Overall includes the battle scores along with painting and sportsmanship and possibly comp score if used for a category to include all parts of the hobby. Do the tournaments run in your area only have one top spot and that includes rating everything? If not than you should be able to win regardless of poor painting ability, etc.

I agree that sportsmanship, depending how it is done, can often be abused but if your area only has tournaments with a Best Overall category you should try to convince them to include a Best General category as well (maybe you have and its a no-go) because I would agree that that situation would put some players at a constant disadvantage and detract from their playing experience.

When I'm not off at school yeah we use one spot thus it isn't a big issue. Now what I was saying is that I would have more of an issue when painting gets taken into consideration. I normally don't have a problem with sportsmanship since I try to not act like a jerk at the table and for that matter nobody does.

Now when I'm off at school we have a tourney called Wasteland Wars that had the Best General/Best Overall spots. This is in addition to multiple categories for paintjobs and conversion work. That is more where the hobby aspect of the game belongs IMO. If they want to have the same prize for the best painted model as the Best General fine. But WW and others like it that I've been to have a better prize for best overall than best general. So if you do decent say just a couple of losses but have an amazingly painted army that either you did yourself or had someone like bluetable paint it then you get Best Overall and are considered the winner. That just doesn't seem right that I can pay to get my army painted well and then do ok in the tournament, where as someone that has a passable (3 colors + based) army they did themselves but went flawless through the tournament can not win the tournament.

Had Ardboyz had a 3 color minimum like most RT then I don't think that any of the "plastic grey" armies that are rampant now would be so big.