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Oh, sorry Atma. He found a spelling mistake in my post. That automatically invalidates everything I've said.

Can't continue now. I spelt something wrong...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh, sorry Atma. He found a spelling mistake in my post. That automatically invalidates everything I've said.

Can't continue now. I spelt something wrong...

Uh, sorry. I made a question to clarify an unclear spelling. Harping on about it means you can ignore everything written afterwards and pretend that no actual points were voiced against what you have said.

Can't continue now. I actually made an effort to make sure I got your point correctly before providing counter-arguments.

Zweischneid wrote:And Kelly also brings you the Wolf-team by turning a Chapter none previously for wolf-iconography into literally wolf-raised, wolf-born, wolfriding, wolf-claw wielding man-wolves.

I have a saying - "Pointing out the bad behaviour of others in no way invalidates your own bad behaviour".

Yeah, the constant Wolf-ness of the Space Wolves was bumped up a few notches with their most recent release, and reached critical mass with the hilariously bad concept that is the Thunderwolf Cavalry (and their poster child, Wolfy McWolferson, riding his wolf, wielding Wolf-claws). It's stupid - I don't disagree at all. But that bit of stupidity in no way excuses the constantly 'Blood' things in the Blood Angel codex, the silly over the top fluff the BA characters got, and all the crap that destroyed the very soul of the Grey Knights.

See Dark Eldar I can buy doing all the gak they do because they are so amazingly advanced that their technology is akin to magic (ie. so beyond us that we cannot understand the concepts behind us, therefore from our perception what happens doesn't seem possible, therefore it must be magical, even though it isn't). Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.

Then you through in the incorruptible Grey Knights who are totally pure except for when the plot demands they not be pure (at which point they kill sisters), how they kill everyone who ever sees them, how they wield Daemon Weapons, how they can now lead units - units - of Daemonhosts (gaking all over the great work Abnett did with Eisenhorn and what Daemonhosts represent within the fluff... seriously - fething UNITS of Daemonhosts!!!). And endless more nonsense.

Ward's fluff stuff is internally inconsistent, and as I said at the start of this thread, reads like bad author-self-insertion fan-fiction put together like a breathless 12-year-old who things Grey Knights are so cool so they can do everything. When I was six I wrote a story about robots (specifically a piece of fan-fiction based around the obscure French cartoon series Robostory - look it up!). Every sentence started with "And then...". It was terrible. Read Draigo's fluff and put "And then" at the start of every paragraph. Tell me if you notice something.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I have a saying - "Pointing out the bad behaviour of others in no way invalidates your own bad behaviour"..

Not saying that. But if Ward is singled out specifically for "hatred" over and above Kelly or Cruddace or McNeill or Chambers or Priestly or whomever, it must be because he did things those authors did not. If his failings are comparable to the failings of other authors, the exceptional antipathy directed at Ward would be irrational.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the constant Wolf-ness of the Space Wolves was bumped up a few notches with their most recent release, and reached critical mass with the hilariously bad concept that is the Thunderwolf Cavalry (and their poster child, Wolfy McWolferson, riding his wolf, wielding Wolf-claws). It's stupid - I don't disagree at all. But that bit of stupidity in no way excuses the constantly 'Blood' things in the Blood Angel codex, the silly over the top fluff the BA characters got, and all the crap that destroyed the very soul of the Grey Knights.

Nobody destroyed the soul of the Grey Knights. They were an obscure niche-army dragged down by some of the most pretentious (and highly Mary-Sue I might add) fluff ever written for 40K. They've been re-imagined with, not least, direct reference to the recent Horus Heresy writings and a consistent theme.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
See Dark Eldar I can buy doing all the gak they do because they are so amazingly advanced that their technology is akin to magic (ie. so beyond us that we cannot understand the concepts behind us, therefore from our perception what happens doesn't seem possible, therefore it must be magical, even though it isn't). Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.

That is not logical. The Warp is an entirely fictional creation. What goes and what goes not in the Warp is defined by the authors that write it. It cannot break common sense. It could, at best, break internal consistency. Same for the power of Gods and Primarchs. However, gods in 40K were always mortal (e.g. C'Tan). And if a random Ork can nearly kill the combined might of the Emperor at his prime and his first Primarch Horus, than a legendary Chapter Master putting a beat on a Primarch is not at odds with older fluff. In comparison, it is fairly clear what a super-massive Black Hole does. If Kelly willfully ignores basic physical laws, it does break common sense and suspension of disbelief.

Ward's fluff stuff is internally inconsistent, and as I said at the start of this thread, reads like bad author-self-insertion fan-fiction put together like a breathless 12-year-old who things Grey Knights are so cool so they can do everything. When I was six I wrote a story about robots (specifically a piece of fan-fiction based around the obscure French cartoon series Robostory - look it up!). Every sentence started with "And then...". It was terrible. Read Draigo's fluff and put "And then" at the start of every paragraph. Tell me if you notice something.

Nothing I don't equally notice reading stuff from Kelly or Chambers or whomever you might want to name. Again, I refer you to the horribly pretentious wish-fullfilment of Vect, still mad after many hundreds of years for being "underestimated" in his youth. Talk about someone holding a typical "12-year-old" grudge.

I grabbed all my previous posts and dumped them into a word document, then extrapolated the points I raised earlier sans any jokes or what not. And this is what I have, rewrote some of it since the context is all out of place. Sorry if it breaks down but I tried to tie it together into some semblance of a post when it was like 8 posts across various things.

===

I am sure that Mr.Ward is a decent enough bloke IRL. Let’s not confuse his profession with his personality. Fair is fair and everyone gets excited at what they love. So hate his contributions if you must, but lets not hate the man. Much like C.S. Goto seems like a decent sort (especially since he acknowledged he doesn't really know enough to write properly for 40K), I hate his writing but wouldn't mind sharing a drink with the guy.

As to my biggest issue with Ward is his abuse of the old established and loved fluff, and his inability to think his actions through when it comes to what he says. One can argue that fluff tastes are subjective and that is a fair call. I deplore the GK codex, but I know those who swear by it. And then there is the whole Spiritual Liege thing that was literally pissing in the eye of many many many many many many fans by stating Ultramarines > X Chapter. This is partially a sign of GW's lack of quality control for WD as well. Since anyone who even has the slightest understanding of human nature would instantly see the waves that would make.

I can't really argue rules since I don't play anymore. And my understanding is that despite some terrible wording he does have some fun ideas and is bringing back some fun things like Jokero, so I do appreciate that aspect of him. But he seems very fanboy-ish in his approach to his job. So really I think if he just had a minder then things would be ok.

In regards to the BA/Necron thing. I don't have an issue with the fact they ended up in a temporary alliance of necessity, especially given the NewCron fluff and the emphasis on the Lord's personality. And given the Blood Angels have the 'He who sheds blood with me shall be my brother' thing as a very big cornerstone of their honor, once again not so much of an issue that they don't like turning on those they fought alongside.

My issue is with the crappy wording of the whole bit of fluff, and that they don't address the fact they were dealing with xenos. Literally a few lines here or there about this internal honor conflict arising before since it was with xenos would smooth a bunch of stuff out. Or have them want to fight them, but their honor code demands otherwise, and without honor they are no better than the xenos, etc etc. Rather than this stupid up in the air middle ground.

But ultimately the timing of the fluff was horrible since the NewCron fluff didn't exist then and they should have been the unflinching machines of death they were before back then. The Lords did have personality back then still, but they were far more concerned with their lawn and property than dicking around with humans back then.

As for the SOB murder-thon, there was no need for it, and it is stupid, and fetish fuel. I can see the twisted logic behind it, but it is just stupid and should not be there. And rustles my jimmies almost as much as them using Daemon Weapons now.

It also annoys me greatly that some of his changes to their army structure like giving them battlefield Apothecaries again aren't even original. I'm surprised we didn't find some copy paste errors straight out of their Realms of Chaos entry.

Basically I just miss the days of the 2nd Ed Dark Millennium fluff when they were really special, and the days of the 3rd Ed fluff which was more or less a logical and fleshed out extension of the 2nd Ed fluff. Before they became just super special Vanilla Marine Army List that is good at killing Daemons. And much of what is there is simply pissing on the memory of that old fluff. Like how much it cost them and the Space Wolves to banish Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Now its just call in Draigo and everyone can sit back and relax with a nice warm glass of Sororitas blood and watch a show.

OP, one of the simplest things I can point out is that by your own admission your are new. And because of this you don't have the same accumulated amount of experience, knowledge and love of this hobby fluff/rules that were directly pissed on by his works. Much of what we talk about is subjective, but without hopping into a way back machine and investing over a decade of love into the Grey Knights and their established fluff you will not be able to truly fathom the sheer disgust I have for his GK fluff and his treatment of it.

Nor could I easily say that without the years of customer service experience could you see the same easily avoidable problems that should never have come to pass if he simply thought out what he said, or had someone with some sense like that looking over his shoulder.
People can write horrible fanfictions full of mary-sues until the cows come home. But since their works aren't going into print for the masses or carry any official weight as a developer none of that is relevant to this discussion. Mr. Ward is and does, and needs to carry himself as such a professional level demands or he validly opens himself up for criticism from the fans he says that he supposedly writes for.

I'm not trying to convince everyone to hate him, I am simply giving my stance as to why I refuse to purchase or even acknowledge any of his works until I see a change in his mentality and level of writing ability. As it stands in my mind they should just hire a 12 year old and pay them under the table, as that is the quality I believe we are getting and I am sure said 12 year old would not command anywhere near the same salary as Mr.Ward.

And like I pointed out before I hate his job and how he goes about it, but I am sure that he is a decent bloke IRL and wouldn't mind sharing a drink with him. Even if only so we can get really plastered and I can give a "Dude. C'mon. Seriously?" speech to him and hope for change.
I believe that when Chapter's Due was written and finally gave the Ultramarines some humble pie which everyone loved, Mr.Ward specifically set about changing some fluff so that the Daemon Prince in said novel could not have been on Macragge at the time just to invalidate the novel since it was his most favorite bestest ever Chapter that could do no wrong eating said pie? Because I remember that being the case, and highlights yet another issue I have with him.

Though I did hear this 2nd hand so if I am wrong so be it and happy to be corrected, but if true it is exhibit A of the case for him being nothing more than a butthurt fanboy.

And to also illustrate just how alienated he is, no one really talks about Goto anymore. He was overshadowed by Ward. Mat Ward is the Stephenie Meyer of 40K IMO.

In previous fluff they never liked the fact that they had to kill loyal servants of the Imperium just for knowing of their existence. Let alone consider murdering Sororitas in cold blood just to get their blood for a ritual of all things. Nor would they even consider touching a daemon weapon let alone wielding one in battle. Now its slaughter this and bath in that, and daemon weapons for EVERYONE pretty much. Almost a complete 180 on their fluff. Not to mention they were always struggling to fight the daemons and none were a push over, they were just simply the best at it given their incorruptible nature and all the various wards like the Aegis they had. Now they walk all over daemons like they were swatting flies. 3rd Ed Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.

===

Now that that monster is out of the way. May I politely as what it is that you write that is GW-Licensed? I don't recognise your tag as being anything on a FFG product that I have seen, though admittedly I don't have them all so I could just be missing it. But I would like to know what it is that you pen as seeing your work could help give me some context into why you defend Mr.Ward so vehemently. And can I confirm that that is indeed a UK flag on your profile?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will point out HBMC, that they always did kill anyone who knew about them with the exception of Marines who just got mind wiped. That was a fairly big deal during the first war for Armageddon since their leader was the only one to retain the memories of what they accomplished and it irked him his Brothers were cheated out of their memories of glory and sacrifice.

And do we REALLY want to drag RT era fluff into this? Because I can grab it from my closet right now. But I would point out that game wasn't supposed to be the serious GRIMDARK all serious all the time game that 40K is now. And the Emperor didn't have the same power level he does now as back then as is my understanding. Hence being knocked out and on his ass by an Ork Warboss on Ullanor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Given that my post was XBox huge and you would need some time to address it properly I'll call it a night for me and check back tomorrow so we can pick this up again if we need to. Night y'all.

Atma01 wrote:
I am sure that Mr.Ward is a decent enough bloke IRL. Let’s not confuse his profession with his personality. Fair is fair and everyone gets excited at what they love. So hate his contributions if you must, but lets not hate the man. Much like C.S. Goto seems like a decent sort (especially since he acknowledged he doesn't really know enough to write properly for 40K), I hate his writing but wouldn't mind sharing a drink with the guy.

Fair enough. I think we can assume that “hating” Ward or Kelly or Priestly or whomever means “hating” their products for 40K; not them personally for the purposes of this discussion.

Atma01 wrote:
As to my biggest issue with Ward is his abuse of the old established and loved fluff, and his inability to think his actions through when it comes to what he says. One can argue that fluff tastes are subjective and that is a fair call. I deplore the GK codex, but I know those who swear by it. And then there is the whole Spiritual Liege thing that was literally pissing in the eye of many many many many many many fans by stating Ultramarines > X Chapter. This is partially a sign of GW's lack of quality control for WD as well. Since anyone who even has the slightest understanding of human nature would instantly see the waves that would make.

As noted, the idea of all Codex Chapters aspiring to be Ultramarines is in the 4th Edition Codex. It’s not something that was created by Ward. Infact, Ward took it out of the Codex when he toned down the UM-focus to historically unprecedented levels and only mentions it in an interview. Ergo, if you deplore Ward for the “spiritual liege” thing, you would logically hate, even more than Ward, McNeill, Haines, the authors of the Index Astartes, etc.. . who all placed even greater emphasis on this aspect of the Ultramarines.

Atma01 wrote:
I can't really argue rules since I don't play anymore. And my understanding is that despite some terrible wording he does have some fun ideas and is bringing back some fun things like Jokero, so I do appreciate that aspect of him. But he seems very fanboy-ish in his approach to his job. So really I think if he just had a minder then things would be ok.

Again, similar points have been made, among others, about Cruddace and IG who made a very open claim that he considers himself a “treadhead” and loves tanks and things IG are the bestest army ever. Or Kelly, who went to fanboy-central to get wolf-riding wolves and the like. My problem is that I fail to see how this is unique to Mat Ward.

Atma01 wrote:
In regards to the BA/Necron thing. I don't have an issue with the fact they ended up in a temporary alliance of necessity, especially given the NewCron fluff and the emphasis on the Lord's personality. And given the Blood Angels have the 'He who sheds blood with me shall be my brother' thing as a very big cornerstone of their honor, once again not so much of an issue that they don't like turning on those they fought alongside.

My issue is with the crappy wording of the whole bit of fluff, and that they don't address the fact they were dealing with xenos. Literally a few lines here or there about this internal honor conflict arising before since it was with xenos would smooth a bunch of stuff out. Or have them want to fight them, but their honor code demands otherwise, and without honor they are no better than the xenos, etc etc. Rather than this stupid up in the air middle ground.

But ultimately the timing of the fluff was horrible since the NewCron fluff didn't exist then and they should have been the unflinching machines of death they were before back then. The Lords did have personality back then still, but they were far more concerned with their lawn and property than dicking around with humans back then.

Still, nothing more odd than Space Wolves inviting an entire Eldar Delegation to their hall for a big beer-bash, Striking Scorpions “respectfully” carrying fallen Space Wolves and having a big, joint party. Timing? Well, it can be debated. I liked the “foreshadowing” of new Necron fluff, which also was already present in FoD. But I can agree that it might have been unfortunate.

Atma01 wrote:
As for the SOB murder-thon, there was no need for it, and it is stupid, and fetish fuel. I can see the twisted logic behind it, but it is just stupid and should not be there. And rustles my jimmies almost as much as them using Daemon Weapons now.

Space Wolves attack Sister without warning in the Space Wolves codex, p. 19. Nothing unique to Ward.

Atma01 wrote:
It also annoys me greatly that some of his changes to their army structure like giving them battlefield Apothecaries again aren't even original. I'm surprised we didn't find some copy paste errors straight out of their Realms of Chaos entry.

So you hate him for not everything being 100% original. For actually using recognized Space Marine units like Apothecaries for a Space Marine chapter? How about the “originality” of Kelly of including Harlys in the Dark Eldar. Again, doesn’t strike me as something unique to Ward.

Atma01 wrote:
Basically I just miss the days of the 2nd Ed Dark Millennium fluff when they were really special, and the days of the 3rd Ed fluff which was more or less a logical and fleshed out extension of the 2nd Ed fluff. Before they became just super special Vanilla Marine Army List that is good at killing Daemons. And much of what is there is simply pissing on the memory of that old fluff. Like how much it cost them and the Space Wolves to banish Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Now its just call in Draigo and everyone can sit back and relax with a nice warm glass of Sororitas blood and watch a show.

Hyperbole. Nothing in the new Codex contradicts the Angron episode (which was a picture-book example of villains’ Mary Sue gone wild btw). Again, fights in the Warp are not the same. The Warp holds no "physical" forms, either of Primarchs or of others. And unlike the Angron fight, nothing is ever at stake for Draigo. He saves nobody and noone. He fights for nothing. The Angron-fight in contrast was a fight "with big stakes". They are polar opposites of one another.

That said, the overblown Angron episode contradicts the Index Astartes fluff where Emperor and Horus together nearly fall to an Ork, or Horus falls to an unnamed guardsman (and the Emperor had to defend his unconscious body), so it is itself a bit on the wrong side of internal consistency. Me, I like my 40K lethal and grimdark, not filled with unbeatable beings that make ever outcome predetermined. In either case, the Angron-fluff seems to be a good example of some author “taking it a bit too far” in a similar vein of the criticism levelled at Ward for Draigo.
Also, Maugan Ra walking the Eye of Terror solo. Maugan Ra defending an entire Planet from Nids solo. Jumping a Bike through the Cockpit of a Warhound Titan to take it out. Stuff like this is all over “the old edition” of 40K too.

Atma01 wrote:
OP, one of the simplest things I can point out is that by your own admission your are new. And because of this you don't have the same accumulated amount of experience, knowledge and love of this hobby fluff/rules that were directly pissed on by his works. Much of what we talk about is subjective, but without hopping into a way back machine and investing over a decade of love into the Grey Knights and their established fluff you will not be able to truly fathom the sheer disgust I have for his GK fluff and his treatment of it.

Not sure how you want me to respond. I hated the old Daemonhunter fluff. I guess there is alot of subjectivity. Either way, I think it is fair to say that his changes to Grey Knights are not any more fundamental to, say, Cruddace changes to the Hive War fluff for Nids (introducing the entirely new character of Swarmlord into a well-established battle, changing the entire dynamics of the Macragge battle in ways that fully contradict the old fluff) or Kelly’s changes to the Wolves (TWC, enough said).
I fail to see what is “unique” about Ward in those criticisms.

Atma01 wrote:
Nor could I easily say that without the years of customer service experience could you see the same easily avoidable problems that should never have come to pass if he simply thought out what he said, or had someone with some sense like that looking over his shoulder.
People can write horrible fanfictions full of mary-sues until the cows come home. But since their works aren't going into print for the masses or carry any official weight as a developer none of that is relevant to this discussion. Mr. Ward is and does, and needs to carry himself as such a professional level demands or he validly opens himself up for criticism from the fans he says that he supposedly writes for.

We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.

Atma01 wrote:
I'm not trying to convince everyone to hate him, I am simply giving my stance as to why I refuse to purchase or even acknowledge any of his works until I see a change in his mentality and level of writing ability. As it stands in my mind they should just hire a 12 year old and pay them under the table, as that is the quality I believe we are getting and I am sure said 12 year old would not command anywhere near the same salary as Mr.Ward.

As noted above, all the points you think make Mr. Ward the equivalent to a 12-year old can equally be applied to all other existing authors (and past authors as well I would imagine).

Atma01 wrote:
And like I pointed out before I hate his job and how he goes about it, but I am sure that he is a decent bloke IRL and wouldn't mind sharing a drink with him. Even if only so we can get really plastered and I can give a "Dude. C'mon. Seriously?" speech to him and hope for change.
I believe that when Chapter's Due was written and finally gave the Ultramarines some humble pie which everyone loved, Mr.Ward specifically set about changing some fluff so that the Daemon Prince in said novel could not have been on Macragge at the time just to invalidate the novel since it was his most favorite bestest ever Chapter that could do no wrong eating said pie? Because I remember that being the case, and highlights yet another issue I have with him.

Though I did hear this 2nd hand so if I am wrong so be it and happy to be corrected, but if true it is exhibit A of the case for him being nothing more than a butthurt fanboy.

Atma01 wrote:
And to also illustrate just how alienated he is, no one really talks about Goto anymore. He was overshadowed by Ward. Mat Ward is the Stephenie Meyer of 40K IMO.

Stephanie Meyer’s fiction is known mainly for introvert, brooding characters whose internal monologues lambast endlessly on real or perceived injustices, along with tedious descriptions of pale-white skin, hair-locks in faces, brooding postures before sun-set, etc.. This can be found in particular in Kelly’s work, but also in some of the old Daemonhunter books. It’s the literary opposite of Ward where everything is in constant kinetic action with little time spent on descriptive text and none at all on internal though-monologues. Stylistically, this statement is simply wrong. Meyer's style of writing and the tropes she uses are not used by Mat Ward. Kelly is the "closest" to her style as can be evidenced by the paragraph of (static) decriptive text on Vect interwoven with expositionary factuals (e.g. he build his empire on his enemies underestimation of him), something you will not find in a Ward book.

Atma01 wrote:
In previous fluff they never liked the fact that they had to kill loyal servants of the Imperium just for knowing of their existence. Let alone consider murdering Sororitas in cold blood just to get their blood for a ritual of all things. Nor would they even consider touching a daemon weapon let alone wielding one in battle. Now its slaughter this and bath in that, and daemon weapons for EVERYONE pretty much. Almost a complete 180 on their fluff. Not to mention they were always struggling to fight the daemons and none were a push over, they were just simply the best at it given their incorruptible nature and all the various wards like the Aegis they had. Now they walk all over daemons like they were swatting flies. 3rd Ed Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.

Again, Space Wolves do it in 5th with no second thought. Seems a broader design choice that goes way beyond Ward. That said, I like it. Everyone vs. Everyone (and potentially allied with everyone) makes for a far “darker” more “grimdark” setting compared to older editions IMO.

Atma01 wrote:

Now that that monster is out of the way. May I politely as what it is that you write that is GW-Licensed? I don't recognise your tag as being anything on a FFG product that I have seen, though admittedly I don't have them all so I could just be missing it. But I would like to know what it is that you pen as seeing your work could help give me some context into why you defend Mr.Ward so vehemently. And can I confirm that that is indeed a UK flag on your profile?

I work as freelance editor (including for “in-universe” consistency) and as translator for Black Library. I do not write original fiction for GW licence products, but I have done so in other places. I never worked with FFG (yet).

Ultimately, my problem remains that I see positions such as yours as itself inconsistent. Individually, those points are subjective. You like them or you don't like them. The problem comes, if they are applied selectively to Mat Ward, while any and all other 40K authors are equally "guilty" of the very same things. This is where I fail to see how a reading of other books, with the same "subjectives" tastes, creates such highly divergent opinions, if it weren't for some form of prejudgement that sees "failures" by Ward as always symptomatic and proof for his shortcomings, but constantly excuses the very same things in the books of other authors as "unfortunate exception".

That is that paragraph, in other words: "Yet if the Chaos Gods could not banish/destroy/kill Draigo, then nor coudl Draigo win by any meaningful victory."
Witch means that Draigo can't defeat them but they also cannot kill him for some reason.
Witch means that Draigo is something Chaos Gods cannot kill - that is Matt Ward logic of a perfect Grey Knight.

Or it's literary code for "It could happen, but it might not"

Why would they want to get rid of him? He's a hoot, he gives the bloodletters something to train on, the great unclean ones a new garden to test plagues within, and Tzeentch makes his labyrinth of utter incomprehensibility even larger and grander.

He's like the perfect test subject, forever taunted and forever forced to fight, but being unable to do a thing, he's so useless at the moment that the chaos gods have bar bets over what he's gonna try next that will fail.

Zweischneid wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I have a saying - "Pointing out the bad behaviour of others in no way invalidates your own bad behaviour"..

Not saying that. But if Ward is singled out specifically for "hatred" over and above Kelly or Cruddace or McNeill or Chambers or Priestly or whomever, it must be because he did things those authors did not. If his failings are comparable to the failings of other authors, the exceptional antipathy directed at Ward would be irrational.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the constant Wolf-ness of the Space Wolves was bumped up a few notches with their most recent release, and reached critical mass with the hilariously bad concept that is the Thunderwolf Cavalry (and their poster child, Wolfy McWolferson, riding his wolf, wielding Wolf-claws). It's stupid - I don't disagree at all. But that bit of stupidity in no way excuses the constantly 'Blood' things in the Blood Angel codex, the silly over the top fluff the BA characters got, and all the crap that destroyed the very soul of the Grey Knights.

Nobody destroyed the soul of the Grey Knights. They were an obscure niche-army dragged down by some of the most pretentious (and highly Mary-Sue I might add) fluff ever written for 40K. They've been re-imagined with, not least, direct reference to the recent Horus Heresy writings and a consistent theme.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
See Dark Eldar I can buy doing all the gak they do because they are so amazingly advanced that their technology is akin to magic (ie. so beyond us that we cannot understand the concepts behind us, therefore from our perception what happens doesn't seem possible, therefore it must be magical, even though it isn't). Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.

That is not logical. The Warp is an entirely fictional creation. What goes and what goes not in the Warp is defined by the authors that write it. It cannot break common sense. It could, at best, break internal consistency. Same for the power of Gods and Primarchs. However, gods in 40K were always mortal (e.g. C'Tan). And if a random Ork can nearly kill the combined might of the Emperor at his prime and his first Primarch Horus, than a legendary Chapter Master putting a beat on a Primarch is not at odds with older fluff. In comparison, it is fairly clear what a super-massive Black Hole does. If Kelly willfully ignores basic physical laws, it does break common sense and suspension of disbelief.

Ward's fluff stuff is internally inconsistent, and as I said at the start of this thread, reads like bad author-self-insertion fan-fiction put together like a breathless 12-year-old who things Grey Knights are so cool so they can do everything. When I was six I wrote a story about robots (specifically a piece of fan-fiction based around the obscure French cartoon series Robostory - look it up!). Every sentence started with "And then...". It was terrible. Read Draigo's fluff and put "And then" at the start of every paragraph. Tell me if you notice something.

Nothing I don't equally notice reading stuff from Kelly or Chambers or whomever you might want to name. Again, I refer you to the horribly pretentious wish-fullfilment of Vect, still mad after many hundreds of years for being "underestimated" in his youth. Talk about someone holding a typical "12-year-old" grudge.

My reaction to all your posts in this thread:
Your argument seems to go around that people who go on 4chan are idiots and people who disagree with you are idiots. I think you need to adjust your attitude.

i like how my blanket statement that I expected to be ignored got replied to twice (and dragged up pages later.)but the carefully well thought points get ignored.the internetz is truly a cruel master.

Nom

EDIT: from what has been said I get the impression that certain people think 1d4chan is full of idiots. Remeber 4chans begginings anyone?

A bunch of hackers?

Hackers aren't known for stupidity.

Nom

nomsheep wrote:i like how my blanket statement that I expected to be ignored got replied to twice (and dragged up pages later.)but the carefully well thought points get ignored.the internetz is truly a cruel master.

Nom

EDIT: from what has been said I get the impression that certain people think 1d4chan is full of idiots. Remeber 4chans begginings anyone?

A bunch of hackers?

Hackers aren't known for stupidity.

Nom

4chan wasn't started by "Crackers" (No, they are not, and are still not hackers! Completely different from what they do now!)

It was just started by moot to be an imageboard that got out of hand.

Didn't say it was started by them, i said that it was infested with them or used to be (Dusty the cat?)

Nom

Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.

Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?

TedNugent wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.

Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?

Sure. Wanna use the 1d4chan test I so ruefully neglected?

How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?
1. Does she start the story at the pinnacle of achievement?
- Ok.. first sentence: "Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is a mighty prophet of the Waaagh!, capable of rousing entire planetary populations of Orks into a frenz of conquest". Check!

2. Is there any way for the character to grow or improve during the story?
- "wherever Ghazghkull went he united warring tribes with an overwhelming sense of destiny. [...] a Waagh! bigger than any seen before or since,." Check!

3. Is it a fan character that is better than the canon characters?
- "He is the single most influential Ork in the galaxy." Ahh.. Kelly's expositionary, descriptive fan-spank at its best. Check!

4. Do all the canon characters suddenly start talking about a fan character, with their presence in the story largely relegated to providing opportunities for the new character to show how pure, powerful, good-hearted, etc they are?
- Ok, time to check out the non-Ghaz characters. Let's just randomly flip a page to the next one: "Ghazghkulls's rise to Grand Warlord took less than a week. Suddenly extremely popular, Grotsnik looked at a mob of Orks waiting outside his tent." Check!

5. Are they someone's self-proclaimed fursona? (If so, stop reading this list and burn them for heresy).
- Well, he's not a pirate I guess, so it doesn't hold for Kelly himself. But no, "they would follow Ghazgkull or they would die" stuff does sound like greenskin furry-ism power-fantasy wish-fullfillment quite alot. So Check!

6. Does she ever make bad decisions? That don't end up being surprise correct choices later?
- Like getting shot only to find "the gods". Clearly! Check!

7. Do you use absolutes like "always," "everybody," or "never" when describing her abilities?
- "all Orks followed him to a man" (what kind of analogy is that anyways?), "the single most influential Ork". Check, check, check, check!!!!!

8. Do they feature an entirely contrived "weakness" that doesn't affect them any time it would harm them (such as being clumsy unless they are required to perform a great feat of athleticism) or isn't really a weakness (such as being too kind or righteous "for their own good") which was clearly added soley so the author could point to it when accused of writing a Sue?
- Like a metal skull that makes him only tougher, harder, more visionary. Most defenitly check!

9- Do you find that, rather than figuring out how the characters can work together to solve a problem, your primary concern as a writer is usually explaining why this one character can't do it on their own?
- Is that even a question? Check!

10. Did Phil Kelly write this character?
- Check!

A clear 10/10 perfect Mary Sue.

10. Did Phil Kelly write this character?
- Check!

Hmmm, something seems off here.

It is also a well known fact that Orks have Mary-Sue armor.

Zweischneid wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.

Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?

Sure. Wanna use the 1d4chan test I so ruefully neglected?

How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?



10. Did Phil Kelly write this character?
- Check!

A clear 10/10 perfect Mary Sue.

Actually, question 10 is " Did Matt Ward write this character", you've twisted the test and answer to fit your own bias, kinda hard to take the rest of your arguments seriously

Nevermind

1d4 chan has a good explanation of why there is hate for matt ward.

I actually don't mind the GK to much (i haven't played BA) but they do have allot of random little remember this ability stuff like to -1 from enemy leadership when targeting with psychic powers, a bit random and not so important.

I think the big hate comes from fluff, fluff that states they killed a bunch of sisters and covered themselves in blood to become more resistant to a demons corruption.

fluff that makes little sense and makes other armies look bad.

LordTyphus wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

10. Did Phil Kelly write this character?
- Check!

A clear 10/10 perfect Mary Sue.

Actually, question 10 is " Did Matt Ward write this character", you've twisted the test and answer to fit your own bias, kinda hard to take the rest of your arguments seriously

This. ^^^^^

Your opinion suddenly means nothing.

1d4chan used to play a game called spot matt ward.

Basically go onto a forum, find a hate ward thread(not a hard task) and see which poster defends him vehemently whilst ignoring other posters and twisting arguments and facts to support him whilst just RAAAAAAGGGING at other posters.

Found him.

Nom

TedNugent wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.

Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?

Given that Ghazghkull was written, back when he was created, as the loser of the Second Armageddon War, one would think not.

Well clearly some posters have beaten me to the punch on some of this. So I won’t bother doing a quote response and instead attempt to compile something more coherent and concise.

Let me start with, not only is your willful ignorance showing, but also your personal bias. If you genuinely believe your own statements then that is a pity and a concern, and if you are a troll then well played and I tip my hat to you. But that would be for posters more active than myself to properly determine and I will just attempt to address this like you are simply uninformed.

You seem to miss the point of the whole ‘Spiritual Liege’ thing. Like entirely. At no point was the contention that the Ultramarines were always the paragons of the Codex Astartes and always held others to their standards. We have always known this, and for the longest time THAT was their defining trait until they got some lore around the Nid invasion of Macragge. Then they became Codex paragons and Nid experts. And some stuff around free thinking and the Codex rules and what not which has become a new theme and one we all welcomed. In the words of Captain Titus ‘Do try to keep up’.

The issue with the Spiritual Liege comment was that in nary a few lines Ward managed to chop down any sort of uniqueness for Codex followers by reducing them to Ultramarine wannabes, and that those who didn’t were ‘fringe exceptions’. Not exactly the most positive thing to say about them. Anyone with more than 2 brain cells should have foreseen the storm that interview or even just that statement alone would brew. It wasn’t even dressed up as an opinion either, but a statement of fact from the Codex writer himself.
It would be like saying that all Eldar regardless of Craftworld kowtow to Eldrad as their only hope of survival for the future (well before he got himself dead at least). Hope there wasn’t any establish fluff of infighting or that Eldar have an arrogant nature that would be trampled on in saying something like that. Do you see what I am getting at here? He more or less said ‘Your fluff is wrong and here is how it is in black and white, YOU WANT TO BE AN ULTRAMARINE. Unless you are one of “Those” people of course.’. Great an dandy if you are an Ultramarine fan since you now have written proof to shut down fluff arguments with, but a little like an Ork in the ass for anyone who wasn’t.

I don’t even need to touch his lines before that part. But I will put them here verbatim;

“Yes, that was one of the other principals I wanted to get across. The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!”

I think that that speaks its own volumes. And you can see why I keep using the word ‘bestest’ in my posts. The whole interview was unnecessarily divisive to the fanbase, and could easily have been avoided with a few simple twists of customer service speak. But alas the ball was dropped, and dropped hard. And here we are, having to point this out yet again.

You seem to keep bringing up ‘examples’ of people in the past who have had what you believe to be a similar mentality in the past. The problem with this is that you examples are poorly chosen. At no time did any of them flat out make stupid absolute statements about the thing they were writing about that would divide the fanbase so much. “I love tanks and wanted to make them awesome”, is not the same statement as “Tanks are undoubtedly the best weapon ever. Yes, really!”. Rules aside since we will always argue over effective rule writing, this is solely about fluff. When you bring up the use of the Wolf stuff in the recent SW Codex the problem with this example is that we already do hate it for its terrible forced nature, but it doesn’t compare to what we are talking about with the GK Codex since it wasn’t a huge change up of their fluff. Just a stupid focus on one aspect of it to the detriment of others. To be a similar example they would have had to change the SWs to tea drinking diplomats who refuse to come to blows with fellow Imperials (since that would not be proper!) and hate wielding anything with a Wolf symbol on it.
As an aside you also don’t seem to know much about the history of the Space Wolves if you think them attacking Imperials is not already established fluff. They are known to come to blows or even provoke them with fellow Imperials due to their headstrong nature. They have at least one ship they retain in their defense fleet which the Imperium asked for back since it was originally a Navy ship they found, but the Wolves said ‘No come and get it’, and no one has since they know the Wolves will fight to keep it. It was also a fairly big deal around why they refused, and were never forced into, compliance with the Codex. Once again you choose a poor example since to correlate to your argument they would have to be doing something that they weren’t before. And they aren’t. I even believe that the SWs and the SOBs have an actual history of animosity that is drawn on given their view of the Emperor and how it conflicts with established Imperial dogma. But that is for more Wolfier Brothers than I to debate as they are not my forte.

This segways nicely into the GK fluff. And its complete 180 with the latest Codex, and the reason why I hate it and by extension Ward for writing it. I have never seen established fluff abused so badly. It almost changed the very nature of the GKs themselves. Before the coming of Ward the GKs were literally the best the Imperium had to offer, and so few that they were only ever called in when the most priority of Daemonic or psychic targets were identified and cornered. E.g. Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Despite having all the best gear, a psyker power level equal to that a Librarian, training that makes an Ultramarine look like a pussy, and more anti-Daemonic wards than you can shake a stick at, they were always fighting an uphill battle against any Daemons they faced. Such was the terrible nature of the foe they faced. They were known to be incorruptible due to their wards and mental training, a keystone of which was taking no pride in what they did. To the point of chewing out other Astartes for doing so. The only thing that stopped them from being complete Mary-Sues was the fact that for every battle or victory they won, it was hollow. Too many losses for just a temporary victory, where they knew others would have to fight it again down the line.

It was also put forward that due to the clandestine nature of their task, and being one of the few truly decent weapons against the Daemonic, the secrecy of their existence was paramount. And any who had knowledge of them had to die, or have their mind wiped of the memory. They took no joy in this and lamented the fact, knowing that it was a necessary sacrifice for the ongoing battle. That was shown during the first war when they had the Space Wolves create a ruse to lure Angron, so they could teleport in and banish him. The cost to both the Wolves and the GKs was dear, but Angron was banished. And in the end all the Wolves save Grimnar (or whoever was in command, would have to look it up again) had their mind wiped. They only left his mind intact so he could carry the memory of the glory and honor for his Brothers that would never know. The origins of the GKs were also left shrouded in mystery so that the player’s could draw their own conclusions. All that was known was they were formed on order of the Emperor and turned up during a later founding. Were they the Librarians left over in stasis after Nikea? The loyalists left from the Traitor legions that got back to Terra? Some anomaly of the warp? Who knew. That was the mystery about them and played no major part in their character. They simply were, and went about their job. And unlike the usual ‘dark and mysterious past’ trope they weren’t hiding knowledge of the origin, they simply didn’t know or care. As there were Daemons to kill.

Fast forward to the new GK Codex. Much of what made the GKs who they were, or their defining traits, were simply discarded or twisted. They use Daemon Weapons now. They apparently can be corrupted, and by murdering Sororitas and bathing in their pure blood with a ritual can they be cleansed or protected. They had their origins defined (poorly in my opinion). They were given a character (Draigo) who has done some of the most hax level things to date in the continuity outside of a being that has ‘God’ in their title or is a ‘God’ in some form. The fluff for said character was written like a wishlist of accomplishments that some kid wrote for his super special snowflake Chapter of Marines. Gone is any ambiguity of their secret nature or origins, or special army structure given their tactical style. Now they are just metal colored Marines, who are all psykers, and must kill the Daemons. But no Draigo, you are the Daemons. And then Draigo was a mary-sue.

These were not small changes like adding a new unit to an army when it makes sense. Adding a Swarmlord to the Nid Horde isn’t the same as wielding a Daemon Weapon when the very thought of considering that in the past would get you investigated for corruption. Adding a Swarmlord is what I would call a logical extension. It’s adding, not changing. And adding in a manner that doesn’t change everything before its inclusion. So once again you choose poor examples.

My position is hardly inconsistent. And you seem to think that simply because I agree with 1d4Chan, or even possibly contributed to its content as I am unashamedly a fa/tg/uy, that it invalidates completely valid criticisms. You also seem to pick and choose what you point out to support your argument, and even then don’t seem to understand the terms or examples you use in them. It is you who hasn’t been able to form a consistent argument against why I dislike the above mentioned stuff.

And if you really do do editorial work for BL, and intend to try and write for FFG then good luck. Because you have here one poster who stated an English professor uses Draigo as an example of how not to write a Character, HBMC who is paid to write FFG fluff and rules (on top of doing editorial proofreading and such, not just your proofreading for consistency), and a legion of others who say Ward’s writing is terrible. On top of which you freely admit to reading Stephenie Meyer books and using them as some sort of basis of anything, whilst missing the point of her work being exactly like the GK Codex. She changed established lore for things. Vampires do not sparkle in the sunlight. And that pissed so many people off. And now that I think about it the Vampire cesarean is a little like Draigo writing on Mortarion’s heart, as it elicits the same WTF response from people.

This got more ad hominem that I would of liked, but seriously dude. Just stop already. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about and your fanboy is showing. Otherwise I would have to point out that we know 3 things about you. You have a UK flag on your avatar, said you ‘write’ for GW-Licensed stuff, and defend Mat Ward. So we can play the little game that /tg/ has and say;

“Go to bed Mat!”

Now if you want to seriously continue come back with an argument that doesn’t rely on your flawed interpretation of the term mary-sue, doesn’t casually disregard 1d4Chan’s thoughts on the matter, isn’t drawing on erroneous fluff information, and doesn’t read like NO U post.
Otherwise I will assume you are a troll, or just very stupid and headstrong. And I am walking away from this again and will not respond unless you can conform to the above.

Now to go play some Borderlands and Gears and take a break from all the words. Peace out homies.

H.B.M.C. wrote: Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.

Ward doesn't mention how many GK were at the battle where Mortarion fell. Why would you assume there were less than when they battled Angron? It was a battle after all, it's not like Geronitan and Draigo were walking their dog and they spotted Mortarion and the deathshroud across the street.

And with regards the bloodtide unless you happen to be a chaos sorceror, you don't get an opinion on whether it was stupid or not for the GK to use Sororitas blood as part of a ward. It's perfectly within the realm of possibility that the bloodtide was something different. It obviously didn't obey the same rules for demonic posession or corruption as described elsewhere in the background, and so it's prefectly reasonable that the GK needed something extra to keep them safe.

Atma01 wrote:*Snip*

Okay at this point, you people need to calm down. You've written a 2126 word paper over a universe of fluff that's so inconsistent and full of mary sue's that It's hard to take it so seriously.

The fact you all get up in tights over wards fluff is fun and all, but wow, the levels it has reached over a game...

Not to mention doing it entirely just to call someone out..

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Atma01 wrote:*Snip*

Okay at this point, you people need to calm down. You've written a 2126 word paper over a universe of fluff that's so inconsistent and full of mary sue's that It's hard to take it so seriously.

The fact you all get up in tights over wards fluff is fun and all, but wow, the levels it has reached over a game...

Well said. I asked a simple question and it has turned into a shouting match, along with name calling over what is really simply taste. 40k as far asI can tell, is built upon poor Ip control, Mary sue one upmen ship with the writers and no one giving a damn about consistency within the setting. Just chill guys, you are not going change each others taste.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Okay at this point, you people need to calm down. You've written a 2126 word paper over a universe of fluff that's so inconsistent and full of mary sue's that It's hard to take it so seriously.

The fact you all get up in tights over wards fluff is fun and all, but wow, the levels it has reached over a game...

Not to mention doing it entirely just to call someone out..

Well that isn't exactly a big thing to write for me. But I do understand that not everyone is used to writing that much so I can see how it looks long and therefore butthurt. And the thing is that he wanted to start this back and forth first using erroneous statements, and tried to call statements of mine out first while disregarding others. At the very least the OP might get some more info on why it provokes the hatred right?

REDACTED DUE TO DERP

If it wouldn't be such a violation of copyright I would be happy to scan their entries from Slaves to Darkness, Dark Millennium and the 3rd Ed Codex so we can see everything side by side. Don't have the latest one laying around for obvious reasons. But their entry went from regular Marines who had Inquisitorial support and were sent to fight Daemons, to individuals geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a small teams geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a whole army geared to be able to obliterate Daemons without trying. They always had sueish traits (with the exception of the Slaves entry), but never proper sues until Ward made Draigo and turned their NEMESIS factor up to 11.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well said. I asked a simple question and it has turned into a shouting match, along with name calling over what is really simply taste. 40k as far asI can tell, is built upon poor Ip control, Mary sue one upmen ship with the writers and no one giving a damn about consistency within the setting. Just chill guys, you are not going change each others taste.

I already covered that whole point before. And Zwei wanted to keep going and put his foot in his mouth. Then tried to hold me to some standard that he wasn't holding himself to. Can't blame me for wanting consistency in a discussion. *Shrug*

But since OP has asked and this is his thread I will do the right thing and stop. So I'm out. Have at my posts. I will go direct this rage elsewhere.

What gets me is why blame ward? The blame for anything he does really lays at the feet of GW. They hired him, do not control their IP and seem to have zero interest in the setting consistency, play balance and yes editing work in books before it hits stands. I just do not get it, they let them slide on everything and blame the man they more or less threw in saying "Eh do what ya want" I myself Like some of the stuff I have read of wards, but that is only the Necron book. GW honestly does a crap job of managing the game. One man should NEVER be in charge of a whole book. I can not honestly think of any other company that allows that.


Sure some blame for this stuff goes to ward, however stuff should be reviewed by more then one person, playtested and someone should be in control of the whole IP, A creative director if you will. with a bit of help and control all the books would be better if you ask me.

If it wouldn't be such a violation of copyright I would be happy to scan their entries from Slaves to Darkness, Dark Millennium and the 3rd Ed Codex so we can see everything side by side. Don't have the latest one laying around for obvious reasons. But their entry went from regular Marines who had Inquisitorial support and were sent to fight Daemons, to individuals geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a small teams geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a whole army geared to be able to obliterate Daemons without trying. They always had sueish traits (with the exception of the Slaves entry), but never proper sues until Ward made Draigo and turned their NEMESIS factor up to 11.

I don't have the original slaves to darkness, but I do have some of the stuff from rogue trader and up to 2nd edition, but the main issue is that fluff has changed and evolved to the point it's affected everyone, from DA losing their hinduish traits as well as their secrets and pasts changing to new chapters coming into play. With "new" old technology propping up and coming in now. Space marines aren't like they used to be back in the RT days after all, along with the Emporer being near death, instead of just asleep like the old days.

I don't honestly mind Draigo, I really mind the Khornate Gray Knights, because that was just horrible in so many ways from both a literary, and even from a 40k standpoint. The reason I can happily ignore draigo is because he's at the moment completely worthless.

He's like some of my favorite Greek Tragedies, a grand hero with lofty goals and a high power level that he overshadows everyone, but like a mortal he's at the fate of the gods. Rather than the Greek gods, he's truly at the call of the hellish 40k Gods, a playable thing of tragedy that as a result, he's allowed to destroy daemons, conquer the Garden of Nurgle and burn it to the warp wretched ground, and even topple Tzeentch's fortress..

But all for what? The daemons reappear, laughing at his efforts to truly slay them and taunt his efforts in their zone, the Garden of Nurgle springs forth from the ashes all around him, while the great unclean one's thank him from afar for cleaning out some of the older diseases they've yet to get rid of, and the fortress rises, with new tortures and horrors within as the fortress of change, willingly granted change by a Gray Knight, continues on with its purpose with it's new design.

In the zone of the warp, the daemons rule and Draigo forever must fight, but his fighting is meaningless. He might as well be dead for all the effort he expends just to stay alive in hell.

Sure some blame for this stuff goes to ward, however stuff should be reviewed by more then one person, playtested and someone should be in control of the whole IP, A creative director if you will. with a bit of help and control all the books would be better if you ask me.

Jervis is supposed to do that, but he's even worse...

Oh my hatred for GW is a WHOLE other topic for another time. I do blame them for not reigning in Ward and completely agree (mentioned before even), but that doesn't excuse him from his own actions either given his professional level in the hobby.

Anyway that was it from me for a while, and I only replied because you asked. Need to shower and get some lunch. So talk to you later if this is still going and there is anything valid I can contribute that isn't directly Ward Hate related.

@Zebio. You mean they have a creative director??? I am simply unsure what to say to that.

@Atma01, thanks for the reply man.

@Zebio. You mean they have a creative director??? I am simply unsure what to say to that.

It's less one person but a group, he got vetoed when it came to trying to take away something the ogres had earned, got huffy and actually left a bitter note that it's unfluffy to do it that way..In the faq!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2120426a_Ogre_Kingdoms_FAQ_Version_2_0_December_2011.pdf

ZebioLizard2 wrote:[It's less one person but a group, he got vetoed when it came to trying to take away something the ogres had earned, got huffy and actually left a bitter note that it's unfluffy to do it that way..In the faq!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2120426a_Ogre_Kingdoms_FAQ_Version_2_0_December_2011.pdf

Are you squidding me? What the hell man. Very unprofessional. >.<