Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Think the spore thing simply depends on if they were designed to or not which is a debate in itself. The Tyranids certainly are, since that's how they descend from their hive ships to a world. Orks more than likely would need a meteor of some sort to attach to and then crash land on the planet. The argument is moot though because it just plays into the circular discussion of Orks are basically feeding the Tyranids with their endless numbers no matter where they end up crash landing.

Yeah lets see... Crash land with several thousand roks... teleport in Millions of orks\thousands of Gargants and the like... Tyranids dead orks win!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All because of the thousands of roks crashed landed and decimated the nids numbers!!!!

**nid evolution vs ork "saiyan" recovery**

I can't remember the source of this information, I know it presents a weak front, but its about nid evoluation. What I remember about nid evolution is it is just like "normal" animal evolution. When an animal evolves it gains something, but also looses something in the process. There was a book I was reading about how guardsmen took out a nid army by constantly changing its battle tactics, keeping the nids to constantly have to readapt their evolution to the previous tactic.

If the guardsmen where going fast attack to do lightning raids on the nids, the nids would adapt their units to be faster. The faster units could keep up, if not outrun the guardsmen, but they lost alot of their protection in the process to gain the spee. The guardsmen planned on this then went with heavy fire units next to take out the now weakly armoured, fast moving nids.

Nid evolution is not making the "perfect" nid that is the fastest, strongest, toughest nid out there. It is constantly adapting its nids to fight the current tactic. I agree that nid evolution is fantastic, but its not the end all reason that they would win. They also must use bio mass to make these changes to each evolution cycle they choose.

The same can be said for orks getting stronger. When an ork survives a fight, he becomes stronger, tougher, and faster. As seen in there strength, wounds, and iniviative increasing going from boyz => nobs => warbosses. The difference here is the ork has to survive combat for the most part.

** Nid vastness vs ork vastness**

I don't think there are accurate number for either of these armies. There are several resources that say the orks spread to vast parts of the galaxy as seen with the imperial probe, that for hundreds of years reported ork activity along its path. The nid codex says that these hive fleets are just the tips of a further coming MASSIVE assault. For the sake of balance I say both armies have an uncountable number of troops.

Ailideon wrote:**nid evolution vs ork "saiyan" recovery**

I can't remember the source of this information, I know it presents a weak front, but its about nid evoluation. What I remember about nid evolution is it is just like "normal" animal evolution. When an animal evolves it gains something, but also looses something in the process. There was a book I was reading about how guardsmen took out a nid army by constantly changing its battle tactics, keeping the nids to constantly have to readapt their evolution to the previous tactic.

That doesn't make any sense. Evolution through natural selection doesn't involve at all making sacrifices for every gain we've made. Directed evolution (which is what the Nids do) would be even more controled and more profitable.

Yes but if you look at hive fleet Gorgon the adapted to make them specialists at one unit but weaker to others units\ the terrain it self. You cant make an invicible nid unit or it would be there already.

The thing about the ork, an ork can fight in many battles and not "survive". An ork warboss might have died thousands of times but they will slowly grow. An ork just needs to be put back together, even if it is with just nails, and he will feel as good as new. There are about three ways for this to fail. One crush the head completly might not happen if the enemy is busy or in retreat. Two body dies off over time, the body is too far gone for, in that case cybork body!!!!! Three body is burned. So its more likly for an Ork to grow and learn from his experiences then it is for the perfect nid.

^ Fairly sure an earthshaker round will keep that annoying greenskin dead for good.

^^ k I forgot body explosion, or whatever

willhman wrote:Yes but if you look at hive fleet Gorgon the adapted to make them specialists at one unit but weaker to others units\ the terrain it self. You cant make an invicible nid unit or it would be there already.

The thing about the ork, an ork can fight in many battles and not "survive". An ork warboss might have died thousands of times but they will slowly grow. An ork just needs to be put back together, even if it is with just nails, and he will feel as good as new. There are about three ways for this to fail. One crush the head completly might not happen if the enemy is busy or in retreat. Two body dies off over time, the body is too far gone for, in that case cybork body!!!!! Three body is burned. So its more likly for an Ork to grow and learn from his experiences then it is for the perfect nid.

Well then Gorgon is dumb. Evolution isn't like a D&d skill roll table, you don't have to take points from 'endurance' to put them in 'wisdom'. You can't make an invicible nids because there's about nothing that is invicible in 40k, the closest being the C'tan/Chaos Gods/Drago (O.o).

And I think Orks are fairly more damageable than how you describe them. Gut wounds will kill them, they just take massive amounts of damage before going done that way... And they're barely sensitive to pain, which helps a lot...

^^Yes that will get them down, But they will come back in the next battle if they get to the doks in time. What Im sayin is that it takes quite a bit to actually kill them, If the guts really are completly destroyed then just transplante in some other ones or a cybork body. Simple as that

I think there is one question that pertains to this thread that must be answered. If Gazghkull throws himself into the Octarius war and seeks out the Swarmlord, who will win in this epic clash of the titans?

A common misconception is that evolution works towards some sort of "perfection". That is as meaningless as saying there is a perfect vehicle.

What constitutes perfection is entirely dependent on the environment and the goals.

For example, to use the vehicle analogy. What constitutes the perfect vehicle? Is it a fast one? Well then light weight and powerful engine are things to have like a Formula 1 race car. Is it one that can haul large cargo? Then a powerful engine and sturdy frame to haul a cargo container would be better. Is it to do both? Well then you need a ridiculously powerful engine and then there is the factor of cost. What about if a perfect vehicle is one that is survivable? Then you can have a tank, loaded down with armor, but fuel inefficient due to its weight and costly compared to a civilian car. There is always a trade off involved simply because the goals are often mutually exclusive.

In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it mentioned how the Hive Mind did not produce big brains in all its creatures because that would be inefficient and costly. So while it is tempting to say the Tyranids will come up with the "perfect" creature, this is really dependent on whatever the local conditions are, and sometimes there will be considerations of cost, especially for creatures meant as cannon fodder. So a Tyranid creature might simply be "good enough" for its cost, rather than a perfect killing monster.

However on the other side of the conflict, looking at the Orks, they are sturdy and tough but they are not immortal. Otherwise we would never have an Ork actually dying, yet Orks are one of the more common alien enemies the Imperium encounters. The Orks have tough skin, muscle, thick hard bones, and due to their symbiotes do not bleed out easily, but ultimately they are still able to be killed by sufficient trauma, just more than what would be needed for a human. Also their spore ecosystem is not invulnerable either. We have a given example in the 5th edition Tyranid Codex with the example of Ghorala, and before it the world of Orrok (mentioned both in that Codex and in the Planetstrike supplement), as examples of Ork worlds being overcome and consumed by the Tyranids. This means Ork spores are not magically popping Orks out of the ground every 5 minutes, and the fact that these worlds fell meant their related fungus and squig ecosystem is still capable of being defeated by the Tyranids and their own mobile consumption ecosystem. The battle for Orrok, in Planetstrike, in fact describes how the battle took place even on the microscopic level with Ork spores fighting against Tyranid bacteria and parasites. The Tyranids won in the end.

Also, the Orks are not above being subverted by Genestealers. Evidence: The Ork Empire of Octavius/Octarius (GW seems to alternate spellings but it's clear they are referring to the same) that Kryptman seeded with captured Genestealers. In the 4th ed. Tyranid Codex, it says that the original infestation was wiped out but by then it had already spread across the Ork empire, and drew Hive Fleet Leviathan. It would be impossible for the infestation to have spread unless Orks were being successfully infected.

dont forget that the nids "vanguards" theory is just that, a theory from a imperial dude, the extragalactic orks however is fact, picked up by a anchient probe.

So useing the "vanguard" theory wont help too much, as for all we know the entire nid race in in the milky way and no more are coming, there is no evidence either way to support either theory.

As odd as it seems, i believe that orks in space are the better tactic, as anyone who plays BFG knows orks munch nids when it get going... but thats game rules and not fluff lol

Formosa wrote:dont forget that the nids "vanguards" theory is just that, a theory from a imperial dude, the extragalactic orks however is fact, picked up by a anchient probe.

So useing the "vanguard" theory wont help too much, as for all we know the entire nid race in in the milky way and no more are coming, there is no evidence either way to support either theory.

As odd as it seems, i believe that orks in space are the better tactic, as anyone who plays BFG knows orks munch nids when it get going... but thats game rules and not fluff lol

It's not extragalactic.

The quote is:

Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and it hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish.

p. 10, 2nd edition Ork Codex

The probe is circumnavigating the galaxy and is just reporting that the galaxy has many Orks. Somehow people seem to have misread or been overly enthusiastic and jumped from the actual text to hyperbolic claims of the Orks being everywhere including extragalactic.

I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

We orks are too modest.

Or too busy krumpin. One or da uvver.

Iracundus wrote:It's not extragalactic.

The quote is:

Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and it hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish.

p. 10, 2nd edition Ork Codex

The probe is circumnavigating the galaxy and is just reporting that the galaxy has many Orks. Somehow people seem to have misread or been overly enthusiastic and jumped from the actual text to hyperbolic claims of the Orks being everywhere including extragalactic.

Hmm, interesting. The reason people 'jump' to that conclusion is that that piece of fluff seems to have been updated. In the 4th/5th edition Codex, page 18, it reads

Milennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra, its mission to reach the utmost limits of the universe...

and it basically goes on to read pretty much what you quoted, albeit a bit paraphrased. So they did change it to insinuate that Orks are also present outside this galaxy.

Scrabb wrote:

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

We orks are too modest.

Or too busy krumpin. One or da uvver.

Well, I'm mainly a Tyranid player (though my ork collection is only a little smaller) and I'd put my money on Gazzy.

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.

Fiction logic implies either two outcome :

1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.

Fiction logic implies either two outcome :

1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)

And Archaon gets headbutted then manfred turns up but decides to leave and then....

so true

*Hint, neither of them exist in the first place*
Man wins!

For both the Swarmlord vs Gazghkull and Orks vs Tyranids as a whole question that's a very trollish response.

I know i just thought i would put it in their to piss off a few people, as the majority of the people in this disscussion have no logic or reasoning behind their statements, like "Orkz win because they can all band together and be unstoppable." Well yes, but their own Codex says that they never will so why bring it up. And anyway, it's impossible to decide a winner otherwise, GW would have removed that races long ago in 1st edition of 40k.

Hezekial wrote:I know i just thought i would put it in their to piss off a few people, as the majority of the people in this disscussion have no logic or reasoning behind their statements, like "Orkz win because they can all band together and be unstoppable." Well yes, but their own Codex says that they never will so why bring it up. And anyway, it's impossible to decide a winner otherwise, GW would have removed that races long ago in 1st edition of 40k.

We think it's fun. And you can get a sense of what's a probable outcome. Sometimes.

Just trolling here, but I just HAD to register to bring up a point. People seem to quote codices that this or this faction is the meanest and baddest one, 'cause it says so in the big book. Well, I'm not 100% sure about the other codices, as I only have Tyranid one, but as far as I know, it goes like "Imperium concentrating all their power on a single faction, would surely bring it down". Or something along those lines.

People also quote Ork codex saying that "if they ever united they would bring down all the civilized races combined". Well, Tyranids are hardly civilized.

Aaand for Tyranids the rulebook just states that "Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other species that inhabits the galaxy." So in my mind "faction" < "all civilized races combined" < "eventual doom of every other species in a galaxy".

Settled by GW?

Naw. The Imerium can take on any one faction if united, no questions asked.

Really you just have to be the most recent codex then everyone will know you're the most unstoppable-est.

indeed, so necrons win? O.o scary thought

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.

Fiction logic implies either two outcome :

1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)

Your number one is messed up good sir, here let a good fellow ork such as me help you out

1) Gazghkull kills the Swarmlord, then after awhile figures out that all the HT that are really hard to kill is actually the Swarmlord ressurected. When he finds this out he starts huntin him untill finally the Hive mind just thinks that he is losing Bio-resources and stops ressurecting the Swarmlord. Ghazghkull is Unstoppable IMO

willhman wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.

Fiction logic implies either two outcome :

1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)

Your number one is messed up good sir, here let a good fellow ork such as me help you out

1) Gazghkull kills the Swarmlord, then after awhile figures out that all the HT that are really hard to kill is actually the Swarmlord ressurected. When he finds this out he starts huntin him untill finally the Hive mind just thinks that he is losing Bio-resources and stops ressurecting the Swarmlord. Ghazghkull is Unstoppable IMO

Considering the Swarmlord might have participated in the extinction of multiple galaxies, you might want to relativize that 'Ghazghkull is Unstoppable' statment a bit...

Kovnik Obama wrote:

willhman wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..

Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.

Fiction logic implies either two outcome :

1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)

Your number one is messed up good sir, here let a good fellow ork such as me help you out

1) Gazghkull kills the Swarmlord, then after awhile figures out that all the HT that are really hard to kill is actually the Swarmlord ressurected. When he finds this out he starts huntin him untill finally the Hive mind just thinks that he is losing Bio-resources and stops ressurecting the Swarmlord. Ghazghkull is Unstoppable IMO

Considering the Swarmlord might have participated in the extinction of multiple galaxies, you might want to relativize that 'Ghazghkull is Unstoppable' statment a bit...

Yes lets see how many times the Swarmlord has been killed to how many times Gazghkull has been killed shall we .

The Swarmlord has an distinctive enough appearance so that I think Gazghkull would be able to identify that it's being resurrected again and again. After all, no other hive tyrant carries four boneswords.