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bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

My choice would be Chaos Furies.

Hey look, here's a pure assault unit, but then let's also handi-cap with by;
- giving them WS3/I3 so that they almost always strike last except vs necrons & orks...
- no options for upgrades like a power weapon or rending...
- is forced to always deep strike into play!!!

And all for the low-low cost of a Grey Hunter?!!

Hell, even Beasts of Nurgle are more usefull than these worthless terds. Sure Furies are jump infantry, but they bounce off of pretty much everything except guardsmen, grots & fire warriors, and let's face it, it's not like Daemons have trouble removing those targets to begin with!

Hopefully with the rummors of new models for them, and the possibility of a new book within a year or so, Furies make a comeback and become a unit more on par with the likes of hormagaunts and act as a cheap throw-away tarpit/sacrificial speed bump instead of their current over-cosed steaming terd 'outdone by every other unit in the codex'!

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Agreed, I think the only the spears are a truly bad unit. Though I have bought a multitude of them for the jetbikes.

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!! AND, Mephiston(is just as tough), and your average captain with a Fist can hit harder.

The Avatar is 'fing awesome! Pair him up with Eldrad and watch him take someone's lunch money.
Seriously, the Eldar are not hurting for suck units. Hawks come to mind.
Why would you say the Avatar?

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

TermiesInARaider wrote:
Assault Marines. I feel like I would be a lot more thrilled about them, if kitting them out wasn't so damn expensive. IIRC, adding jump packs costs over 100 points? Same deal with Vanguard Vets and Devastators. They'd be so much more awesome if I didn't need to spend so much on them.

Assault marines are good if you deep strike them behind a unit like the Devastators to either kill them or to stop them from shooting for a few rounds.

Who takes Whirlwinds?

I mean, seriously, if you aren't list tailoring, why would you ever bring one? Maybe sixth would change that, but given the versatility of Preds or Vindi (and for me, Long Fangs), who takes that?!?

Most useless in my Codex would be either the Whirlwind or anything to do with Blood Claws. I don't understand what inspired them to gimp assault marines further, make our bikes crap, and then give us a "second troop choice" that no one in their right mind would take. Claim fluff or w/e, but why would I take a unit that HAS to have a babysitter in the literal sense?

SM: I was going to put ASM, but those are actually competent and cheap for their job compared to Vanguard Vets. I pay more than an normal ASM to get an extra attack and Ld? And NOT to have a jump pack? Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks. Manchu If you buy them jp's they cost almost as much as a terminator. Only they're in PA. With no power weapon.

BA: DC Tycho. Tac marines and techmarines at least have a use or are just simply outclassed. DC Tycho just sucks to me because he's basically a sucky Mephiston. Who is T4.

Rampage wrote:

CruelCoin wrote:Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

What?

So a unit that is more often than not able to pop a transport every turn shutting down your opponents maneuverability and allowing you to run in with your Waaagh move and krump slower moving units is rubbish? These things are increadibly useful against transport heavy armies, even more so against Dark Eldar. Also, I wouldn't call 150pts for 10 a 'huge chunk', plus, if you get them in cover, they can survive a decent amount, and any firepower that is going into your Lootas is not going into other units.

I understand their effectiveness, but that assumes they remain unmolested.

If any decent shooty army comes up against you, the lootas get primaried, run away and your 150 points goes bye bye.
This sorry scenario happens more often than not. Potentially good? yes, problem is they never get the chance to BE good.

CruelCoin wrote:

Rampage wrote:

CruelCoin wrote:Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

What?

So a unit that is more often than not able to pop a transport every turn shutting down your opponents maneuverability and allowing you to run in with your Waaagh move and krump slower moving units is rubbish? These things are increadibly useful against transport heavy armies, even more so against Dark Eldar. Also, I wouldn't call 150pts for 10 a 'huge chunk', plus, if you get them in cover, they can survive a decent amount, and any firepower that is going into your Lootas is not going into other units.

I understand their effectiveness, but that assumes they remain unmolested.

If any decent shooty army comes up against you, the lootas get primaried, run away and your 150 points goes bye bye.
This sorry scenario happens more often than not. Potentially good? yes, problem is they never get the chance to BE good.

This has never been a problem with my Lootas. When I come up against a primarily shooty army they tend to aim for my Nobz squads first and formost. The last thing that they want is to have 2 fully kitted out Nobz squads hitting their lines, as a primarily shooty army won't have anything to deal with that in HTH. Additionally, if you have more than one unit of Lootas (decent size), and they're in cover, it is unlikely that both will be forced to run, especially when an Ork army is likely to have a lot of CC, and that is what is going to be causing your opponents shooting based army more of a problem, not the Lootas.

Anything from Codex Eldar from cover to cover has been a real let down but the guardians are the biggest let down of them all ... I don't even get mad at the Eldar when we lose.... just... well disappointed... and from GK I'd have to say Daemon Hosts.

Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

I wish I had the Eldar book to get the exact quote, because I'm 100000% certain this is wrong. He may be effected by abilities that effect Daemons, but I don't think that means all the special rules for Daemons in their own codex; surely he'd have to deepstrike too as part of a wave? Which would mean buying a seperate book just for the Avatar. I think "Counts as a daemon" is what GW were getting at, not "Should use all the rules for the Chaos Daemons too!"

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

I feel like no EW is more of an old codex issue, rather than anything else, Back then, you didn't really need EW quite as much, now, it's auto take for my SW. Or anyone playing against GK. I'd almost bet money that in the next Eldar dex, he gets EW, and a bit of an overhaul. I mean, Mephiston has 1 more wound than the Avatar, that just sounds so stupid it makes my head hurt. And your right, he WAS a good value, now, not so much, GK laugh at him, bc of him being a demon, and he also takes up an Eldar HQ slot, which could be filled with say Jain Zahr, who if memory serves has S7, and 5 attacks on the charge, and can't be sniped out by long fangs/sternguard spam. You do make some good points though, I just think that he's underwhelming for the builds people run these days with Eldar, and the things people have as far as wargear/codex's. He just hasn't aged as gracefully as say Eldrad, or Yriel for example.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

I wish I had the Eldar book to get the exact quote, because I'm 100000% certain this is wrong. He may be effected by abilities that effect Daemons, but I don't think that means all the special rules for Daemons in their own codex; surely he'd have to deepstrike too as part of a wave? Which would mean buying a seperate book just for the Avatar. I think "Counts as a daemon" is what GW were getting at, not "Should use all the rules for the Chaos Daemons too!"

Ok, I didn't think he was immune to ID originally.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

I wish I had the Eldar book to get the exact quote, because I'm 100000% certain this is wrong. He may be effected by abilities that effect Daemons, but I don't think that means all the special rules for Daemons in their own codex; surely he'd have to deepstrike too as part of a wave? Which would mean buying a seperate book just for the Avatar. I think "Counts as a daemon" is what GW were getting at, not "Should use all the rules for the Chaos Daemons too!"

Also, you generally don't defer to other codices for ruleset info, he counts as a daemon only for and I quote "weapons and abilities that affect daemons" and it does specify under his special rule "Daemon" the particulars of him counting as a daemon. In short, it's mostly a nerf, but on the bright side, it grants him his 3+ armor, and 4+ invuln.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:SM: I was going to put ASM, but those are actually competent and cheap for their job compared to Vanguard Vets. I pay more than an normal ASM to get an extra attack and Ld? And NOT to have a jump pack? Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks. Manchu If you buy them jp's they cost almost as much as a terminator. Only they're in PA. With no power weapon.

BA: DC Tycho. Tac marines and techmarines at least have a use or are just simply outclassed. DC Tycho just sucks to me because he's basically a sucky Mephiston. Who is T4.

Errr have you ever used Tycho? He gives his entire army his leadership value, he's shooty and good in CC, he is at his best with Shooty units like Tacticals. Oh and he comes in two flavours normal and Rage, DC Tycho is a bit of liability I'll grant you (due to rage) but he is far from Underwhelming, which is the premise of the OP. He is also cheap initially, alittle expensive for the Rage upgrade, but against Orks he is Draigo on Steroids. .

DC add on Tycho gains +1 on WS, -1 on BS, +1 Attack, -2 Ld. He has all the DC stuff, Rage, FnP, Fearless, Relentless (actually works for him), Fleet (don't get why cause the rest of the DC don't have it), PE Orks and FC. He also still has Dead Man's Hand and the Blood Song weapon.

Priests or Ogryns due to point cost ): suuuuuuuuucks how overpriced the only good CC IG units are.

andrewm9 wrote:
Repentia are still uncontrollable since they have Rage. The only way to control them is to borrow a transport from another unit and arrange your units so they can't see the enemy. There big problem isn't assaulting its surviving to the assault. Some bolt rounds and a flamer hit and they will be losing more than a couple fo models. Even 9 bolt pitsols and a flamer from a Tac sqaud and you are looking at like 3 dead. The number goes up with more shots naturally. They just aren't that tough for an assault unit. I still say the Penitent Engines are more useless for Sisters. They are in direct competition with Exorcists, they are sqaudroned, 11/11/10 open-topped, have Rage, and are way over-priced.

With 6+/4+ save they are almost as tough to kill as power armor units, and they get into combat much faster. I do steal a transport for them, but I've seen folks run bigger units up the board too with pretty good results. Rage can hurt against fast enemies, but for the most part you don't have to worry where they go, since most things they hit they kill. The presumed nerf to Feel No Pain is going to hurt them upcoming though, alas.

trephines wrote:Priests or Ogryns due to point cost ): suuuuuuuuucks how overpriced the only good CC IG units are.

Got to be honest, I forgot about Ogryn's. They do need a buff to make them as hard as they should be, the guard lack tough assault units that are good in CC, It would be good to see them get a price break or maybe something to give them an edge.

 Kain wrote:

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Are you high? Hive Guard are the bane of anything with AV12 and below, they are a godsend for an army than desperately needs to be able to shoot transports to death before they can unload their cargo in your face.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Because two of one weapon is always better than a twinlinked version of that weapon. Unless you meant two twinlinked autocannons, which would be rather hilarious.

Done deal, except im running it with a typhoon launcher and ten man cap on house rules, helios for tourney

Ogryns. Not only do I never encounter a situation with my guard that could have been done better with Ogryns, they also cost way too many points!

Plague flies, from chaos daemons. They release something fast for nurgle, and make it crap

Pyrovores, nuff said.

 Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

Daemons lost EW now, and the rulebook daemon rule only gives you fear and 5+ invun

Experiment 626 wrote:
My choice would be Chaos Furies.

Hey look, here's a pure assault unit, but then let's also handi-cap with by;
- giving them WS3/I3 so that they almost always strike last except vs necrons & orks...
- no options for upgrades like a power weapon or rending...
- is forced to always deep strike into play!!!

And all for the low-low cost of a Grey Hunter?!!

Hell, even Beasts of Nurgle are more usefull than these worthless terds. Sure Furies are jump infantry, but they bounce off of pretty much everything except guardsmen, grots & fire warriors, and let's face it, it's not like Daemons have trouble removing those targets to begin with!

Hopefully with the rummors of new models for them, and the possibility of a new book within a year or so, Furies make a comeback and become a unit more on par with the likes of hormagaunts and act as a cheap throw-away tarpit/sacrificial speed bump instead of their current over-cosed steaming terd 'outdone by every other unit in the codex'!

Darn I was about to say furies, by the time you add a mark on they are no longer that cheap, I think you would have to put a herald in there for them to be any good but with only 1 attack each, 2 on charge, I cant really see the point in them purely because of leadership 2, leadership tests will oblierate them :(

For CSM: anyone who said chaos spawn doesn't know how to play then properly. Go on YouTube and watch some battle reports where they are used in a good way, they are strong.

I would have to say possessed, I have never really seen them do any good, but their models look awesome.

Mandrakes, they look so cool.....but suck soooooo bad!

pax_imperialis wrote:
Done deal, except im running it with a typhoon launcher and ten man cap on house rules, helios for tourney

Holy thread necromancy embedded quote wall double jeopardy, Batman!

 Super Ready wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Done deal, except im running it with a typhoon launcher and ten man cap on house rules, helios for tourney

Holy thread necromancy embedded quote wall double jeopardy, Batman!

Ohhh that is why people were saying chaos spawn haha.