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Happyjew wrote:So the only things that can "shoot" into cc are:
1. Errant scattering of blast markers and templates (though how a template scatters is beyond me)
2. Vibro Cannon
3. Doom of Malan'tai Spirit Leech ability
4. Any others?

CSM psy power nurgles rot (which I think was FAQ'ed to a PSA) simply hits stuff in 6 inches, there is no target.

I don't think there is anything else that allows you to use anything classified as a shooting attack into melee.


Firmly planted in the camp of " A shooting attack cannot deliberately fire into melee without having a special rule that allows for it. "

juraigamer wrote:

Happyjew wrote:So the only things that can "shoot" into cc are:
1. Errant scattering of blast markers and templates (though how a template scatters is beyond me)
2. Vibro Cannon
3. Doom of Malan'tai Spirit Leech ability
4. Any others?

CSM psy power nurgles rot (which I think was FAQ'ed to a PSA) simply hits stuff in 6 inches, there is no target.

I don't think there is anything else that allows you to use anything classified as a shooting attack into melee.


Firmly planted in the camp of " A shooting attack cannot deliberately fire into melee without having a special rule that allows for it. "

You realize that you just contradicted yourself.
You're saying a PSA that doesn't have a target can hit units in CC, but you're firmly against Jaws hitting a unit in CC... Even though it doesn't target those units.

Unless Nurgles Rot specifies it can hit CC - in which case I just seem like an ass. :-)

liturgies of blood wrote:Look there is shooting, the visualisation of the guns on the fecky little men on the board blasting at the enemy and "SHOOTING" the process by which the rules allow you to wound and effect models in the shooting phase.

Some of us are talking in the rules language of the shooting phase. So by the rules, a Leman Russ that scatters a pie plate onto cc has not shot nor shot at the cc. It has HIT the units in cc but not shot into them as shooting into them is illegal.
This is because shooting requires targetting and targetting requires a valid target.

Haven't we covered this many times? Shooting at things requires targeting, shooting does not.

jwolf wrote:Haven't we covered this many times? Shooting at things requires targeting, shooting does not.

Haven't we covered this many times? You still haven't shown a rule saying that.

Grey elder wrote:
So everybody is hit, but not everybody is shot.

Pure nonsense. Not everyone was shot at, which is what targeting does.

Grey elder wrote:
Leno is hit with jaws effects not shooting, and since its not a template or blast it does follow thne restrictikons to hit as clearly proven it the great ROLL TO HIT 2011 debate for jaws.
So this leaves us with 1 person shot(Gaga) and 2 people hit Gaga and Leno.
Leno was never the intended target, he just happened to get hit, which is allowed since it is neither a template or a blast, its a shot with special rules.

So shooting attacks that are neither templates nor blasts can hit models in close combat as a general rule? Because Jaws certainly has no specific rule that allows it to do so. More nonsense.

Grey elder wrote:
So the difference is
Is there one target- yes
Is it in CC- No
Are people being shot in CC- no
Are people being hit in CC- Yes
All shots cant be in CC, but hits can be in CC because they are not shots

Demonstrate a rule that allows you to hit models in close combat with a shooting attack that is explicitly applied to Jaws of the World Wolf and you would have a case. But you don't have a case, because there is no such rule. The targeting FAQ for Jaws contains no such rule, and since the general rules prohibit targeting/hitting/shooting models (I don't even care about the language anymore, it's a blanket proscription if you take all the rules we've all quoted and misquoted in this thread), you cannot place your 24" long line over friendly models or models in close combat, as that would hit models that you are not allowed to hit with Jaws.

jwolf wrote:Demonstrate a rule that allows you to hit models in close combat with a shooting attack that is explicitly applied to Jaws of the World Wolf and you would have a case. But you don't have a case, because there is no such rule. The targeting FAQ for Jaws contains no such rule, and since the general rules prohibit targeting/hitting/shooting models (I don't even care about the language anymore, it's a blanket proscription if you take all the rules we've all quoted and misquoted in this thread), you cannot place your 24" long line over friendly models or models in close combat, as that would hit models that you are not allowed to hit with Jaws.

Using every rule quoted, you're prohibited from targeting a unit in CC. There's simply no other restriction in place.
Please cite one if you think there is. If you can find one, you'd have a case. But you can't because there isn't one.
Not caring about the language is why you disagree - the language absolutely matters in a RAW argument.

The general fluff on page 40 prohibits firing into CC.
By itself it means nothing. The rules supporting this fluff are on page 16.
Those rules (actual rules, not fluff) prohibit targeting a unit in CC.
Placing the Jaws line does not target anything after the first model.

The opposition is trying to argue intent. Not that intent isn't important to consider, but you should recognize that Inge t only applies if people agree and/or if the rules are unclear. I don't see how the rules covering this are anything but perfectly clear.

If you want to continue arguing, please address one of the 4 Italic lines with a disagreement based on rules.
If you want to discuss intent fine, but please say so.

By your own words you're intentionally shooting an enemy model locked in combat which is clearly and has been spelled out as not legal. Do you at least agree you're doing it intentionally?

-666- wrote:By your own words you're intentionally shooting an enemy model locked in combat which is clearly and has been spelled out as not legal. Do you at least agree you're doing it intentionally?

No, I'm not shooting an enemy model. I'm hitting an enemy model. Shooting it requires selecting it as a target. Jaws does not target models after the first one it hits.
Intention is irrelevant, really. Partially because my intent might have been to snipe one model out of CC or it might have been to get this onedudeoitof my face.

It's a shooting attack - you're trying to use semantics to circumvent the rules.

@rigeld2 - You claim that page 40 of the rules is fluff. I state that it is actually rules - you know, because it is rules. You are not permitted to fire into close combat. Yes, there is a lot of flowery language there, but it does boil down to a blanket prohibition on shooting into close combat. Jaws is a psychic shooting, which means that using it counts as using a ranged weapon (all psychic shooting attacks count as using a ranged weapon unless otherwise specified; Jaws is not otherwise specified).

There is a mechanism by which ranged weapons that are templates or blasts can hit models in close combat - they can scatter there. Other ranged weapons cannot hit models in close combat unless they have explicit permission to do so. Jaws acts as a ranged weapon and has no permission to hit models in close combat. There is no grey area here at all.

rigeld2 wrote:
Unless Nurgles Rot specifies it can hit CC - in which case I just seem like an ass. :-)

Heh no worries man, it's not a power people use often... well I do, but anyway,

It states that the power may be used even if the caster is in melee, and the targets may be in melee.

-666- wrote:It's a shooting attack - you're trying to use semantics to circumvent the rules.

He's not really. He's saying that the word "shooting" does NOT mean what the dictionary says it means. Instead, "shooting" is a term invented by the 40K rulebook to mean something specific, and this "something specific" is that "shooting" is, as described and defined by the rules of the game, a process that necessarily includes "targeting" as one of it's steps. Thus, if you are not "targeting" then you are not "shooting," no matter what the English dictionary says or what anyone else wants that word to mean.

It's a psychic shooting attack and that doesn't morph into anything else after it passes through the first target.

-666- wrote:It's a psychic shooting attack and that doesn't morph into anything else after it passes through the first target.

Which does not matter, as Shooting is a defined process in 40K, which includes targeting, as Tangent has said.

you can not target a unit in CC, but you can hit a unit in CC.

JotWW only targets the first model, then it can hit any other models in the way.

So explain this to me - a what point does it no longer count as a psychic shooting attack? That's what I want to know.

-666- wrote:So explain this to me - a what point does it no longer count as a psychic shooting attack? That's what I want to know.

It is always a psychic shooting attack. I've never said otherwise.
That doesn't matter though.

Shooting is a defined process in 40k. You are not allowed to target a unit for the purpose of shooting if they are in CC. That is the only prohibition in the book - even if you take the line on page 40 as a rule instead of fluff, there's no additional restriction.

Do you agree that firing/shooting is a defined process in the context of 40k?
Do you agree that firing/shooting is prohibited from selecting a target in CC?
Do you agree that no model after the first on is hit by Jaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwolf wrote:@rigeld2 - You claim that page 40 of the rules is fluff. I state that it is actually rules - you know, because it is rules. You are not permitted to fire into close combat. Yes, there is a lot of flowery language there, but it does boil down to a blanket prohibition on shooting into close combat. Jaws is a psychic shooting, which means that using it counts as using a ranged weapon (all psychic shooting attacks count as using a ranged weapon unless otherwise specified; Jaws is not otherwise specified).

There is a mechanism by which ranged weapons that are templates or blasts can hit models in close combat - they can scatter there. Other ranged weapons cannot hit models in close combat unless they have explicit permission to do so. Jaws acts as a ranged weapon and has no permission to hit models in close combat. There is no grey area here at all.

Even if you think it's rules not fluff - there's no extra restriction.
Firing is defined as shooting which is a defined process. Do you disagree?
There's a blanket prohibition on shooting into close combat - which means in 40k there's a blanket restriction on following the shooting process against units in a CC. Do you disagree?

I disagree that "may not shoot into close combat" has any loopholes such as not targeting units in close combat allowing you to shoot them, unless you have specific permission to do so.

Targeting and shooting at units is a defined process; we have no disagreement. We do disagree that targeting units in close combat is the only restriction on hitting units in close combat with shooting attacks. I do not agree that all rules regarding hitting units in combat are included in The Shooting Phase section of the rules, since p.40 has specific and necessary rules regarding shooting models in close combat. The restriction on shooting models in close combat is explicit, even if you choose to continue saying that it is either fluff or not a restriction.
I have always disagreed that targeting = shooting. I still disagree. Shooting at is a product if targeting, shooting is a product of where the shots land. Recall that the restriction on which units you may assault is specifically units shot at, not unit shot. Because you shoot at your target, but might shoot any number of units.

jwolf wrote:

Grey elder wrote:
So everybody is hit, but not everybody is shot.

Pure nonsense. Not everyone was shot at, which is what targeting does.

Yes, I fired one shot at one unit, it hits it, it just happens to hit 5 guys behind the target unit. In this scenario one shot happens, which is directed at the first unit, after that people are hit by the weapon's effects and not the actually shooting. So only one person was shot at, if it auto hits which it does, then the power hits the rest. (I.E< I hit the first person after that it is similar to a blast in which the rest of the hits are the powers doing) This allows the first unit to be the one shot at, while the ones behind it are not being shot at and are rather being hit just hit insteead, because it is impossible for the rune priest to have more then one target squads when shooting.
If it was not for page 40 ",,,blast markers and templates may not be deliberately placed such that they cover any models lock in combat,,," Blas weapons and templates would be able to cover bases in combat if there was a nearby unegaged enemy unit to fire upon, along with the proper placing just aslong as the dont touch their own men.

jwolf wrote:

Grey elder wrote:
Leno is hit with jaws effects not shooting, and since its not a template or blast it does follow thne restrictikons to hit as clearly proven it the great ROLL TO HIT 2011 debate for jaws.
So this leaves us with 1 person shot(Gaga) and 2 people hit Gaga and Leno.
Leno was never the intended target, he just happened to get hit, which is allowed since it is neither a template or a blast, its a shot with special rules.

So shooting attacks that are neither templates nor blasts can hit models in close combat as a general rule? Because Jaws certainly has no specific rule that allows it to do so. More nonsense.

Not what I meant. I would have assume that you take the general rules into consideration where the target unit cannot be in CC, but alas this has failed.
What I mean by this is that the Preist is only ever allowed to shoot one unit, with his weapon, it just so happen that his weapon allow simultanuos to hit other units be it friend or foe, aslong as the units that are Friendly or in CC are not the first unit hit making it the target unit, and hence illegal. Their is no rule stopping me from hitting these normally illegal units aslong as the initial requirements for jaws is met thus allowing me to jaws the units behind.

jwolf wrote:

Grey elder wrote:
So the difference is
Is there one target- yes
Is it in CC- No
Are people being shot in CC- no
Are people being hit in CC- Yes
All shots cant be in CC, but hits can be in CC because they are not shots

Demonstrate a rule that allows you to hit models in close combat with a shooting attack that is explicitly applied to Jaws of the World Wolf and you would have a case. But you don't have a case, because there is no such rule. The targeting FAQ for Jaws contains no such rule, and since the general rules prohibit targeting/hitting/shooting models (I don't even care about the language anymore, it's a blanket proscription if you take all the rules we've all quoted and misquoted in this thread), you cannot place your 24" long line over friendly models or models in close combat, as that would hit models that you are not allowed to hit with Jaws.

It is actuall the lack of a rule that allows it, since the quick refereance to the biggest limitation is on page 40 is fluff, the second limitation is on 16 where the target unit cannot pick a target that is locked it CC, which then allows the RP to hit multiple units/ models after the iniitial target, even if the ones after are friends or foe or even in CC they get hit" The power just happens to hit everybody else on the way through! FAQ SW" So yes there may be no rule, but the lack of the a stopping rule allows such an action to occur. As seen in the Blast markers scenario.

I love that everyone who wants Jaws to be unrestricted calls the rules on page 40 "fluff". Fluff is things like description of the Warrior Monasteries of the Dark Angels, not paragraphs with headings in the rules of the book that describe, even in "fluffy" language a blanket prohibition on shooting into combat. Targeting = shooting at <> shooting = hitting. Page 16 in no way removes the restrictions put in place on page 40, and "just happens to hit everybody else on the way through" doesn't explicitly remove the restrictions on not shooting friendly models or models locked in close combat - which is true of every case that actually allows hitting friendly models or models locked in close combat.

jwolf wrote:I disagree that "may not shoot into close combat" has any loopholes such as not targeting units in close combat allowing you to shoot them, unless you have specific permission to do so.

So how are you defining "shoot" other than what page 15 allows?

We do disagree that targeting units in close combat is the only restriction on hitting units in close combat with shooting attacks. I do not agree that all rules regarding hitting units in combat are included in The Shooting Phase section of the rules, since p.40 has specific and necessary rules regarding shooting models in close combat. The restriction on shooting models in close combat is explicit, even if you choose to continue saying that it is either fluff or not a restriction.

The restriction is on page 16 as well - page 40 simply refers to the normal shooting rules. We know this because of the language (that you said didn't matter) used.

I have always disagreed that targeting = shooting. I still disagree. Shooting at is a product if targeting, shooting is a product of where the shots land. Recall that the restriction on which units you may assault is specifically units shot at, not unit shot. Because you shoot at your target, but might shoot any number of units.

Have you been able to cite a rule that shows theirs a similarity between being shot and hitting?
I've never, ever, said that targeting = shooting. I've said that shooting requires targeting.
I also still think its amusing you're asserting you can shoot things you aren't shooting at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwolf wrote:I love that everyone who wants Jaws to be unrestricted calls the rules on page 40 "fluff". Fluff is things like description of the Warrior Monasteries of the Dark Angels, not paragraphs with headings in the rules of the book that describe, even in "fluffy" language a blanket prohibition on shooting into combat. Targeting = shooting at <> shooting = hitting. Page 16 in no way removes the restrictions put in place on page 40, and "just happens to hit everybody else on the way through" doesn't explicitly remove the restrictions on not shooting friendly models or models locked in close combat - which is true of every case that actually allows hitting friendly models or models locked in close combat.

I call it fluff because you cannot, using that sentence alone, apply any rules.
The only rules keyword in there is fire. Which refers to the shooting rules. Since that's how it's defined in 40k, applying any other definition is disingenuous.

I'm 100% using the rules in the book to make my point. You're using intent and your understanding of plain English to attempt to make yours.
How else are you saying that shooting = hitting? You have yet to show a rule saying that, despite my repeated requests.

I'll say it again - page 40 says nothing page 16 didn't already say.

You are right jwolf they are saying rule = fluff to lend credence to their position. It's humorous.

-666- wrote:You are right jwolf they are saying rule = fluff to lend credence to their position. It's humorous.

Actually, I'm not. I've even addressed the fact that some people read it as a rule.
You should read my posts and actually post why you disagree.
That'd be great instead of assuming you know what I'm typing.
Thanks for participating.

Alot of people are hung up on the targeting aspect, but if you look at nurgles rot, which does not target, it still needs permission to affect models in close combat written in its rules.

If a shooting attack that does not target needs explicit permission in its rules to affect models in CC, then why would it matter if jaws only targets the first model?

The jaws power itself does not not give permission to ignore the normal rules of shooting, but nurgles rot which is also a PSA does give permission to affect models in CC.

Thats pretty much why I believe that you may not use jaws to hit models in CC. There is precedence for powers to be able to affect models in CC. Jaws has no such clause that allows it to do so, unlike other abilities which explicitly allow for it.

BarBoBot wrote:Alot of people are hung up on the targeting aspect, but if you look at nurgles rot, which does not target, it still needs permission to affect models in close combat written in its rules.

It has permission - it may not need permission. If it doesn't target then it doesn't need permission.
I'm not familiar with the Chaos codexes, so I'm unfamiliar with the power.

That is so wrong on so many levels. I see no point to continue discussing the topic.

-666- wrote:That is so wrong on so many levels. I see no point to continue discussing the topic.

And yet you see a point to posting.
Would you care to say why you think it's wrong?

nurgles rot is a PSA.

It says it may be used in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. "The psyker may be in close combat at the time, as may the targets."

If successful all models within 6" are hit.

The power does not target, yet it still states that it may be used against models in CC. That means that just because it doesnt target does not give permission to use it illegally against models in CC. It needed the clause to allow something that is normally illegal to be legal.

Jaws doesnt have that clause allowing it to affect models in CC, so jaws must follow normal shooting restrictions.

Edit** after reading and underlining that part, it does say target...

The problem I have with this whole discussion is everyone keeps talking about targeting. No where does the BRB say you can't target a unit in close combat. In the targeting section it does not mention CC. The place it is mentioned is pg. 40 which also does not mention targeting units in CC it clearly states shooting units in CC is not permitted. So unless you it has a written exception giving it permission in the SW codex or FAQ which it does not then you can't. Unless you can show how hitting them with it would not be considered shooting them. And no not targeting them is not enough as I have already shown the reasons for above.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291332.page
Same thing before FAQ just reverse the the order of the hitting the unit target first CC after Result is the same. Other people is the suggested three played it this way as well and agree with it.
-666- I'm all for bantering back and forth but playing scruffy the janitor does not further the discussion.
To Jwolf, Jaws can hit the unit behind the target because its not shooting them, they are shooting the target unit, and just so happen to hit anything, and evverything that Jaws affects behind the unit including CC because there is no rule stating that they cant be hit, just that they can't cannot target CC. Its a by product of hitting the legal unit.

Grey elder wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291332.page
Same thing before FAQ just reverse the the order of the hitting the unit target first CC after Result is the same. Other people is the suggested three played it this way as well and agree with it.
-666- I'm all for bantering back and forth but playing scruffy the janitor does not further the discussion.
To Jwolf, Jaws can hit the unit behind the target because its not shooting them, they are shooting the target unit, and just so happen to hit anything, and evverything that Jaws affects behind the unit including CC because there is no rule stating that they cant be hit, just that they can't cannot target CC. Its a by product of hitting the legal unit.

Once again nowhere in BRB does it mention targeting when it comes to CC only shooting of units in CC