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Looking for logic in all the wrong places...

 blood reaper wrote:
I've always thought the treatment of Matt Ward as being over reactive, his writing may not be the best, nor the balance of the rules but the sheer rage induced by a thread like this is a bit silly, no? While people have decided Phil Kelly is the avenging angel and last line of defense against the tide of Wards filth, I'll give an example of one of the topics;

Example: "Necron's and Blood Angels are BFF's "
The history section in both the Blood Angel and Necron codex states that the Necron's and Blood Angels allied against invading Tyranids, and by allied they stayed out of the way until the end of the battle and walked off because there was no point in further battle. With the new rendition of the Necron's fluff, the Necron's are far more tactical and saw further battle as a waste. Explain how staying out of each others way equates to this;



It doesn't, they fought the Tyranids as separate forces and left. None of this whiny BFF gak ever occurred.

Whether the BA and Cron's are best friends is neither here nor there. The ultimate heresy, is that these Astartes did indeed "Suffer the Xeno's to live".

This pragmatic, and sensibility to needless carnage and further the sensitivity to casualties flys in the face of all the Imperium, does, stands for. It simply does not fit that Astartes would walk away from a fight...Whatever the reasoning, they do not walk away from the Emperor's enemies. They will allow the Enemy to fight each other and fight internally, but they would not slink away from a fight.

The whole mien of the 40k is "There is always war!" not "There is always war, but you can opt to walk away if you like".

Out of curiosity, do you know who was in command during that mission? Kind of an important fact as to why they might have been willing to give it a pass.

Whether the BA and Cron's are best friends is neither here nor there. The ultimate heresy, is that these Astartes did indeed "Suffer the Xeno's to live".

This pragmatic, and sensibility to needless carnage and further the sensitivity to casualties flys in the face of all the Imperium, does, stands for. It simply does not fit that Astartes would walk away from a fight...Whatever the reasoning, they do not walk away from the Emperor's enemies. They will allow the Enemy to fight each other and fight internally, but they would not slink away from a fight.

The whole mien of the 40k is "There is always war!" not "There is always war, but you can opt to walk away if you like".

Except this happens far more often then people seem to think, considering the Eldar teamups, alongside the Ultramarines and Tau teamups against the tyranids... Usually it's a teamup against the tyranids, even orks stopped fighting umies once to help fight nids!

Yeah, happens far more then people think, there used to be a half-eldar half space marine hybrid after all!

The problem with ward is that he is very much at the front of what's wrong with 40k in general these days: 1. retcons, rewrites, and gakky, contradictory fluff that make no sense and alienate old players that actually liked the older fluff. 2. POWERCREEP. or in this case, POWERSPRINT. every time a new rulebook or ruleset comes out, it makes everything that predates it look weak. every new rulebook is made to out power the codex before it. so then, when certain armies (BT, eldar, Tau) get left in 3rd and 4th ed, they become completely unplayable under normal rules (not forge world or imperial armor books, because in many settings those things arent allowed) and finally 3. MONEYGRUBBING. more than ever, 40k is becoming a game of "Oh, you didnt buy the newest $127638719236918723698 model made from inferior resins and marked up double cost because its finecast? Oh, then good luck doing anything but packing and unpacking your models every game, because the 13 year old across the table got his parents to buy him that model and now he wins every game every time. due to imbalanced codexes made with money first in mind, and fun a far distant third, (author hard-ons come second), this is how every game goes lately.
And in summary, this is why people hate matt ward. not because he is any worse than any other hack in the whole of GW, but because he's the figurehead of their bloated corporate steamship of poo.

3/10.

I think you're looking for the 'I hate GW' thread and not the 'I hate Ward' thread.

 pretre wrote:
3/10.

I think you're looking for the 'I hate GW' thread and not the 'I hate Ward' thread.

In all fairness with the sentence in your signature, you seem to want to bring every single thread down on the issue Matt Ward issue.

I don't hate him per se, I just don't like the work he has produced. Notable issue being Iron Hands being written out of existence in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, I mean one of the original 18 Legions and it got half a caption sentence on a single page. That combined with hundreds of other little points just really pissed alot of people off. I have no problem with Ultramarine's being the poster boys, but there are quite a few other Codex Chapters that deserve attention within that book, such as Iron Hands, Salamanders, Imperial fists, white scars and their descendants. It was far too Ultramarine centric, I would have settled for 60% ultra's 40% others, or even 70% / 30% but it was 90% to 10%. It was a travesty.

No, there's a difference between acknowledging that a problem exists (the draigo'ing of threads) and wanting that problem to exist. It is a sad fact and one that I would love to change.

You know that (perhaps with the exception of Iron Hands), the latest C:SM had the least percentage of UM specific stuff of all codexes (going back to Codex: Ultramarines from 2nd edition). We checked in one of these threads a while back and counted pages, special characters and unique units.

 pretre wrote:
No, there's a difference between acknowledging that a problem exists (the draigo'ing of threads) and wanting that problem to exist. It is a sad fact and one that I would love to change.

You know that (perhaps with the exception of Iron Hands), the latest C:SM had the least percentage of UM specific stuff of all codexes (even Codex: Ultramarines from 2nd edition). We checked in one of these threads a while back and counted pages, special characters and unique units.

I would point out, that it was called "Codex Ultramarines" in 2nd edition it would be a bad book if it featured other chapters for example if Codex Blood angels featured Wolves? The 5th Edition was called "Codex Space Marines" so it should have been about that and not the "CODEX ULTRAMARINES" it was in actuality.

We compared:
C: Ultramarines (2nd)
C: Space Marines (3rd)
C: Space Marines (4th)
C: Space Marines (5th) (the one that everyone complains about)

The book with the most (by both page count and percentage) non-Ultramarine fluff, special characters and units? C:SM (5th)

Indeed but it is still overwhelmingly Ultramarines, when the are 4 other major Legions and countless other descendent of note (such as the Crimson fists or the Black Templars, or others such as the Mentor Legion, Silver Skulls, Iron Knights, Howling Griffons, Relictors, Mortifactors, Scythes of the Emperor, and many others of the tier II space Marine Chapters. Codex Space Marines should be more about these Chapters, I would settle for more 50/50.

As well, to your other rather silly point, Codex: Ultramarines had a good deal about other chapters in it. Take a read sometime.

I've got it. Don't get sarcastic, tis the lowest form of whit and demeans yourself.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Indeed but it is still overwhelmingly Ultramarines,

But it is still less overwhelmingly Ultra than every single other space marine codex that was written. So you're faulting him for what exactly?

when the are 4 other major Legions and countless other descendent of note (such as the Crimson fists or the Black Templars, or others such as the Mentor Legion, Silver Skulls, Iron Knights, Howling Griffons, Relictors, Mortifactors, Scythes of the Emperor, and many others of the tier II space Marine Chapters.

Black Templars have their own codex. All of the chapters you mentioned are featured in C:SM, iirc. None of them (with the exception of CF, which still have special characters in C: SM) have ever had characters in any space marine codex.

 mwnciboo wrote:
I've got it. Don't get sarcastic, tis the lowest form of whit and demeans yourself.

Have to agree to disagree, sweetie. For me, sarcasm is far from the lowest form of wit. And who's to complain if I'm just demeaning myself.

Black Templars had a 4th Edition codex, they never received a 5th edition Codex. They had a FAQ for 5th it was one of the more broken codices as it was difficult to use.

On the point you are making about being less overwhelming, relatively yes, but overall it's still OTT. Let me articulate it more easily with numbers/

80% is less than 90%, but it is still predominant.

70% is less than 80%, but it is still predominant.

60% is less than 70%, but it is still a majority.

So by degrees, yes 60% is reduction from 90% and relatively less overwhelming, but it is still predominant.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Black Templars had a 4th Edition codex, they never received a 5th edition Codex. They had a FAQ for 5th it was one of the more broken codices as it was difficult to use.

That Codex is still current though, so the statement that Black Templars have their own Codex is still correct.

Unless you were hoping that Ward would fold BT into C:SM. That would not be a popular stance to take.

Genuine question- Has their been a 6th Edition FAQ for Black templars? I ask because I haven't seen it yet, if so great because I will dust them down from the shelf and give them a run out.

EDIT- found it....nice.. Will have a play next week.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Genuine question- Has their been a 6th Edition FAQ for Black templars? I ask because I haven't seen it yet, if so great because I will dust them down from the shelf and give them a run out.

EDIT- found it....nice.. Will have a play next week.

Unfortunately, said FAQ was a kick in the balls for a Codex that is already the oldest Codex in the game and one of the least powerful...

See that’s my biggest problem with the Newcrons. I don’t mind them diversifying them and giving them various dynasties, but I much preferred it when their troopers were soulless automatons and their leaders were unfathomable personalities.

I said it when the Newcron Codex first came out, but look what happens when you remove the names from the Special Characters in the Codex and just leave their titles.

You get:

1. The Stormlord.
2. The Diviner.
3. The Illuminator.
4. The Infinite.
5. The Vanguard.
6. The Traveller.

This, to me, would be a far more interesting way to present the special characters. Don’t give them hokey pseudo-Egyptian names (Imhotehk? Really?). Keep 'em mysterious.

If they did that I could actually keep them all straight lol

 Surtur wrote:


Being able to throw out the 4 or so lists that are vastly different at their core choices isn't necessarily a golden standard, it can also mean lack of identity to a codex. The fact that you can run it as inquisition, super elite paladin, elite purifiers or standard load out and each are considered very strong, to say the least, and a core design aspect makes me think of the possibility that the overall design is schizophrenic. It's a codex that is doing too much. Every one of it's slots is packed with choices. It's troops has 5 available choices with 3 of them being unlocked by HQs that combined can represent from a guardsman to a super terminator. This doesn't speak of good design, it speaks of lack of design as few things seem to have been trimmed. The upgrade lists and choices in this book is simply staggering. I'm not saying that I'm against choices, but there needs to be limits as well and Grey Knights do not have them.

Woo hold on for a second. Are you saying it is BAD that a codex offers you multiple ways to play an army? That you dont have to pick a prescribed plan to be competetive?

You understand that sounds rediculous right? I read your poice and I litteraly said "how is this a problem?"

Are you saying that you would prefer that the Imperal Guard codex (using as a hypothetical example) would be better if the only way to play a good IG army was if you picked mechanized list and having the IG codex designed so that Armor, Mech, infantry, and combined arms are all viable options hurts the codex because it lacks "identity?"

If that IS what you are saying I hope every codex every written in the future lacks identity because I dont want to be forced to pick from a limited list to have a good army. I want to create my own identity for the army.

Because Kaldor Draigo has a two-page long entry in the GK codex.
I do use his model as an upgraded Ordo Malleus Inquisitor.

Because other than murdering my own units, that's all that Kaldor is good for >.>

 mwnciboo wrote:


Whether the BA and Cron's are best friends is neither here nor there. The ultimate heresy, is that these Astartes did indeed "Suffer the Xeno's to live".

If that is the case, Kelly is equally guilty of this when he writes about Space Wolves and Eldar having a big ol' drinking party in the biggest Hall of Fenris (never mind that there isn't even common enemy around as there is in the Necron/BA story).

If you consider this the "ultimate heresy", it is one that Kelly is equally guilty of. It's nothing specific or unique to Mat Ward.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:


Whether the BA and Cron's are best friends is neither here nor there. The ultimate heresy, is that these Astartes did indeed "Suffer the Xeno's to live".

If that is the case, Kelly is equally guilty of this when he writes about Space Wolves and Eldar having a big ol' drinking party in the biggest Hall of Fenris (never mind that there isn't even common enemy around as there is in the Necron/BA story).

If you consider this the "ultimate heresy", it is one that Kelly is equally guilty of. It's nothing specific or unique to Mat Ward.

Red Herring and it's been debunked before. 1/10, got me to reply though.

We're talking about Mat Ward.

Also I dislike him solely because he annihilated Fantasy with his Daemons book. I'd like to see even the biggest Ward nut hugger defend that.

Don't have to since we're in the 40k forum and everyone has already acknowledged daemons.

 pretre wrote:
Don't have to since we're in the 40k forum and everyone has already acknowledged daemons.

If by "everyone" you mean you (just scrolling through this), then sounds good. Also granted this is the 40k forum but it -is- a reason why people complain about Mat Weird.

He is reknowned for coldhearted and shameless fluff rape. In the January 2010 issue of White Dwarf, in the legion of the damned codex entry, a rant by Varro Tigurius says that the Orks ran from the damned. We all know what a real warband would have done had a mob o' marines popped outta da warp in black fiery armour an' know wotz.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Don't have to since we're in the 40k forum and everyone has already acknowledged daemons.

If by "everyone" you mean you (just scrolling through this), then sounds good. Also granted this is the 40k forum but it -is- a reason why people complain about Mat Weird.

Serious? I think one guy in this whole mess said daemons weren't that bad. Anyone else not think that was a big mess?

Or are you just disagreeing with me to disagree with me?

 pretre wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Don't have to since we're in the 40k forum and everyone has already acknowledged daemons.

If by "everyone" you mean you (just scrolling through this), then sounds good. Also granted this is the 40k forum but it -is- a reason why people complain about Mat Weird.

Serious? I think one guy in this whole mess said daemons weren't that bad. Anyone else not think that was a big mess?

Or are you just disagreeing with me to disagree with me?

I think that was likely me. And what I said was that Daemons weren't the only broken army book, just the last one of the edition. And 8th hardly "fixed" the game seeing as so many people stopped playing because of the rules, and many of the new broken combinations.

Fantasy is a bit mess overall, Daemons were hardly the disease, just a symptom.

the original thread was why do people hate matt ward. the answer is because he is a big red target. he's very publically guilty of all the things gw does wrong. figurehead syndrome.

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
He is reknowned for coldhearted and shameless fluff rape. In the January 2010 issue of White Dwarf, in the legion of the damned codex entry, a rant by Varro Tigurius says that the Orks ran from the damned. We all know what a real warband would have done had a mob o' marines popped outta da warp in black fiery armour an' know wotz.

Except orks run away all the time in plenty of media, it's one of those things that's never been consistent.