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The thing is though, without the special abilities, the Riptide is far less attractive. So far in 3 games with the Riptide he has done about as much damage to himself as the opponents have. I enjoy using it either way, but i've never had to fear such outcomes when using Drakes. Just one little thing that tips it in favor of the Drake, IMO.

Dreadknights are not short ranged. Hide them, shunt them 30" and if you don't kill them next turn in one round of shooting they'll tear through a riptide in CC without breaking a sweat or putting a nick on the NF Sword. Then after its shunted its standard movement is 12", and there will be another one running on the other side of the field too.

And when you miss with that shot on the first turn and roll a 4" on your JSJ and don't manage to escape its dead, as is the other one. That leaves 2 dead riptides and 2 virtually unscathed dread knights.

If we work on the best case scenario for the Riptide I see no reason why I can't do the same with my DKs. Or does that only work for the riptide that has the perfect game every game in your head.

True cowen - apparently discussing averages isnt realistic enough to the "discussion"

One thing to note is that your weapon loadout highly influences whether you will want to Nova charge with the Riptide. The heavy burst cannon will very frequently wish to Nova charge, while the ion accelerator does not gain any benefit from doing so against many common targets. This means that ion Riptides can more easily use their charge for boosting their shields or for ripple-firing their secondary weapon (8 twin-linked smart missiles from one model? yes, please!). Just something to consider.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What chumps are going to make it into combat after three turns of triple pie plate shooting, pray tell?

if your running 3 of these puppies in a list you will have very happy opponents.... cos you will sink a lot of points into them.... and no pathfinders....

and just remember 30% chance to fail charging to fire those pie plates and the penalty is one of your 5 wounds.... no saves of any kind allowed.....

Riptides are elites. Pathfinders are Fast Attack. I have two of each in my list.

 Kingsley wrote:
One thing to note is that your weapon loadout highly influences whether you will want to Nova charge with the Riptide. The heavy burst cannon will very frequently wish to Nova charge, while the ion accelerator does not gain any benefit from doing so against many common targets. This means that ion Riptides can more easily use their charge for boosting their shields or for ripple-firing their secondary weapon (8 twin-linked smart missiles from one model? yes, please!). Just something to consider.

I find that the Riptides are firing at vehicles and armor early on. People like to throw a Drop pod out there against Tau as they did last night. Killing it is a good thing. First Blood makes the round 1 overcharge worth it. Ripplefire is also beefy.

cowen70 wrote:
Dreadknights are not short ranged. Hide them, shunt them 30" and if you don't kill them next turn in one round of shooting they'll tear through a riptide in CC without breaking a sweat or putting a nick on the NF Sword. Then after its shunted its standard movement is 12", and there will be another one running on the other side of the field too.

And when you miss with that shot on the first turn and roll a 4" on your JSJ and don't manage to escape its dead, as is the other one. That leaves 2 dead riptides and 2 virtually unscathed dread knights.

If we work on the best case scenario for the Riptide I see no reason why I can't do the same with my DKs. Or does that only work for the riptide that has the perfect game every game in your head.

There we have it everyone! Shunting Dreadknights! The best way to kill Triptide.

Well yes why not? And the best part is, I tried it and it has indeed done the trick. 2 DK's vs 2 Riptides.

The shooting didn't kill the DKs's and it turns out riptides are worse than useless once you've got ahold of them. Double dreadknight overkill, goodnight.

The rest of the army put up a pretty good fight, one of the riptides got a couple of good shots off before its inevitable and rapid demise.

Then likely the guy you played did not use cover properly, support fire, or had terrible luck. Here in Portland Or, 90% of the riptides I have seen have made their points back every time.

You had a great game against them but tell me Cowen70, ifyou were to go into a match that you did not knwo who you were going to fight, would you still take 2 DK's?

I have a number of lists I use regularly, one of which includes two Dreadknights.

So you if you enter a blind match you just hand them one of your premade lists that will handle what you think they will throw at you then?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

cowen70 wrote:
Dreadknights are not short ranged. Hide them, shunt them 30" and if you don't kill them next turn in one round of shooting they'll tear through a riptide in CC without breaking a sweat or putting a nick on the NF Sword. Then after its shunted its standard movement is 12", and there will be another one running on the other side of the field too.

And when you miss with that shot on the first turn and roll a 4" on your JSJ and don't manage to escape its dead, as is the other one. That leaves 2 dead riptides and 2 virtually unscathed dread knights.

If we work on the best case scenario for the Riptide I see no reason why I can't do the same with my DKs. Or does that only work for the riptide that has the perfect game every game in your head.

There we have it everyone! Shunting Dreadknights! The best way to kill Triptide.

Look everyone! More hyperbolic assertions with no dissection of the argument.

Any chance of actually assessing this proposition with any thought?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

cowen70 wrote:
Dreadknights are not short ranged. Hide them, shunt them 30" and if you don't kill them next turn in one round of shooting they'll tear through a riptide in CC without breaking a sweat or putting a nick on the NF Sword. Then after its shunted its standard movement is 12", and there will be another one running on the other side of the field too.

And when you miss with that shot on the first turn and roll a 4" on your JSJ and don't manage to escape its dead, as is the other one. That leaves 2 dead riptides and 2 virtually unscathed dread knights.

If we work on the best case scenario for the Riptide I see no reason why I can't do the same with my DKs. Or does that only work for the riptide that has the perfect game every game in your head.

There we have it everyone! Shunting Dreadknights! The best way to kill Triptide.

Look everyone! More hyperbolic assertions with no dissection of the argument.

Any chance of actually assessing this proposition with any thought?

Nos you ask TOO MUCH!!!

Lysensis:

it depends if its a friendly match or a competitive match. If with friends I've got a good idea of what I am facing in a friendly, but if its competitive there is a good range of armies in the group, just missing...Dark Eldar, I'd have no idea what to do with them and if its competitive then you just have to pull a take all comers list out of your ass.

Is that surprising? Surely that is the same for everyone.

Played against the new Tau Last night with my SoB; 2k lists, Dawn of War, Purge the Alien.

I went first, scouted Dominions, and rammed 3 BSS + 1 Battle Conclave in his face turn one. I used my Dominions to obliterate his Commander's squad down to one suit/drone.

Then the Riptide.... He cracked vehicles, he will a squad squad in melee,... and then got locked with one Sister Superior. I had Seraphim nuking Firewarriors and then said "Screw it, I got Melta Bombs and a 6++/6++... CHARGE!"

Two rounds of combat later and the Melta Bombs had blown off the last two wounds it had.

So yea, Sisters Melee'd it to death.

Compare that to a Heldrake which would just decimate my army. Not scared of Riptides... (at least just one!)

@Cowen70: Thank goodenss, still a dick move but meh at best. If you said you just had a bunch of lists preped for competitive I was going to have to get upset. . . not a good thing. . .

@Nos: So ou can shunt the DK to the riptide but you still have to be warry on the charge for Support fire, and bad dice rolls on both parts. It COULD work but the point drop for that might just be a bit much. . .

How is it a dick move exactly?

I wont get into it. I get way to heated and I rather not get more warnings.

Its not bringing 3 heldrakes its not even as bad as 3 leman russes.

I really don't get your point. It isn't even like the GK codex is considered overpowered in 6th Edition.

Its not like its considered underprowered either.

It's no longer ball-slappingly bull-gak insane OP as it was in 5th, where the only people claiming it wasn't were *some* of the GK players...

It's still one of the mid to top-tier codexes after some heavy-duty nerfing

No its upper middle class. Posh enough to have a white picket fence but not posh enough for silverware and hired help.

There are no real dick moves left for the GK codex except perhaps spamming Chimeras with 3 henchmen in each. Draigo is more fun than a deathstar now, you wouldn't want to field him in a tournament. Double Dreadknight to me is equivalent to someone doubling up on Vindicators or Riptides and since I assume someone doubling up on a Riptide isn't a dick move I really don't see how doubling up on the DK can be.

You are sinking 500 points into two models that struggle to stay out of line of sight and only have a 2+/5++, it can be actually a pretty risky move which is why it isn't seen all over the place as the super uber must take.

Draigo and Necrons just placed top 4 at Adepticon.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Draigo and Necrons just placed top 4 at Adepticon.

who/what won it?

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Draigo and Necrons just placed top 4 at Adepticon.

who/what won it?

Nick Nanavati's* Draigo/Necrons won it. So...yeah, 'top 4' is technically correct.

Of course Draigo can be played well still but the Paladinstar whilst it can win games is much more vulnerable than in 5th.

If your Paladins or even Draigo get in range of Dark Angel rapid fire Plasma bike squads they simply will not last very long. If you are lucky enough in a tournament (or skillful enough to avoid it) then great but it is a big gamble when you drop 700p on a single unit that could get tarpitted, slowed down or simply massacred by getting Plasma on the wrong side of the squad and whoops...3 paladins just died because Draigo was chillaxing on the other side of the squad. Not to mention the fact that in multiple object games you are left somewhat weak in being able to play to the scenario.

cowen70 wrote:
Of course Draigo can be played well still but the Paladinstar whilst it can win games is much more vulnerable than in 5th.

If your Paladins or even Draigo get in range of Dark Angel rapid fire Plasma bike squads they simply will not last very long. If you are lucky enough in a tournament (or skillful enough to avoid it) then great but it is a big gamble when you drop 700p on a single unit that could get tarpitted, slowed down or simply massacred by getting Plasma on the wrong side of the squad and whoops...3 paladins just died because Draigo was chillaxing on the other side of the squad. Not to mention the fact that in multiple object games you are left somewhat weak in being able to play to the scenario.

I think most skilled Draigowing players will have Draigo right where he needs to be to tank most of those Plasma shots. Ravenwing are maneuverable and all, but the grenade gimmick isn't very hard to hedge against when you can see it coming straight for you. Sorry to be Contrary Mary here, but I gots to.

Draigowing is not weak on objectives either. Blackmoor's Draigowing list (that also made Adepticon's top 16) had a minimum 6 scoring units after combat squads, very possibly 8 (depending on Grand Strategy) where needed. And as TEQ's, MEQ's, and AV12 vehicles, those aren't pushover units either. If the objective happens to be The Relic, Draigowing has the strongest scoring unit in the game to claim it with. Not too shabby. Draigowing is still strong in 6th and the Adepticon results should set that in stone.

But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Riptides, except that they'll struggle against a Draigowing too. S8 A2 large blast might seem like a handy way to clear out Paladins, but again Draigo says "NOPE. 3++." Try and get close enough for an angled shot and you can say goodbye to your Riptides.

Fair enough I'm relatively new to Grey Knights and thus far my performance with Terminators (not paladins) has been somewhat lacking but I'm quite prepared to admit that is down to lack of delivery systems and possibly just not really getting their usefulness. I'm receiving a Draigo model in the post soon enough so I shall certainly give Draigo a try.

This all devolved from riptides where apparently taking two dreadknights against two riptides was a dick move which I'm still baffled about.

No Cowen70 you misread my statement. I think having pretailored lists for certain friends who you play against is a dick move. Taking 2 DK is your choice and I would love to snipe them off the board.

Oh right. Well we often pretailor lists but we both do it in the full knowledge that we do. One pair do tournaments and they want us to pretailor and exploit every possible weakness in their list to see how they can fight against various armies with the worst possible combination. Other times we surprise each other or not just depending on how we feel. But we are friends not specifically competitors so we don't really do "dick" moves to each other.

I think if you are so obsessed with winning that you'll go out of the way to screw someone yeah but then would you still be friends?