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anyone ran the FW fire raptor with deathwatch before? or with any regular SM before?

Hey so I played a 2500 pts game today with my AdMech and included 5x Vanguard Veterans with 4xTH&SS and 1x HTH, with the support of a Watch Captain with combi-melta and TH and it was quite fun using jet pack units. Well the Vet squad died miserably against Terminator fire and one round of melee, but hilariously the Watch Captain went berserk after that (with 2W left) and disengaged, melted a Terminator, then charged again and killed them all, and went on a rampage across the map, killing a team of 5 Devs and 4 Scouts after that, then the game finished when he tried to melee Azrael and some more DW. I'll definitely try that again.

So first of all I guess that squad was probably way too expensive (and my opponent had nothing above T6) and is still squishy under mass small-arms fire, but I got them for free so no regrets. How would you use such a unit ? The problem for me was that in deep-striking them they're too far away for a charge (flying units must still count vertical movement, right ? Unlike the grapnel Reivers ?), but deploying them regularly makes them a target turn one. So do I deep-strike them but far enough for me to come closer afterwards, or do I deploy them normally and distract my opponent with something else ?

Also, I'm thinking about including more DW in my army (waiting for an eventual codex), would a squad of Vanguards Veterans with chainswords + bolt pistol be nice ? They'll certainly be cheaper, and with the special ammo they can be nice anti-T4.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey so I played a 2500 pts game today with my AdMech and included 5x Vanguard Veterans with 4xTH&SS and 1x HTH, with the support of a Watch Captain with combi-melta and TH and it was quite fun using jet pack units. Well the Vet squad died miserably against Terminator fire and one round of melee, but hilariously the Watch Captain went berserk after that (with 2W left) and disengaged, melted a Terminator, then charged again and killed them all, and went on a rampage across the map, killing a team of 5 Devs and 4 Scouts after that, then the game finished when he tried to melee Azrael and some more DW. I'll definitely try that again.

So first of all I guess that squad was probably way too expensive (and my opponent had nothing above T6) and is still squishy under mass small-arms fire, but I got them for free so no regrets. How would you use such a unit ? The problem for me was that in deep-striking them they're too far away for a charge (flying units must still count vertical movement, right ? Unlike the grapnel Reivers ?), but deploying them regularly makes them a target turn one. So do I deep-strike them but far enough for me to come closer afterwards, or do I deploy them normally and distract my opponent with something else ?

Also, I'm thinking about including more DW in my army (waiting for an eventual codex), would a squad of Vanguards Veterans with chainswords + bolt pistol be nice ? They'll certainly be cheaper, and with the special ammo they can be nice anti-T4.

I don't think bc/ccw is the best use of vanguards. There are better and cheaper ways to clear chaff.

I'm thinking of doing a double plasma pistol squad or bp/pp. It would at least look cool as hell even if it doesn't end up working out.

The Codex needs to do something about overall points and/or survivability to really make them viable. I've been having fun with frag cannon paired with Boltgun/stormshield KT's in a blackstar, bit wouldn't consider it competitive.

So, codex Deathwatch is among the 4 next codices, after Necrons and Drukhari, and somewhere among Harlequins and Imperial Knights. I'd wager it'll be after the Harlequins one. What are your hopes for this codex ?

I'd like Jump Pack/Bikers Watch Masters, to give better rerolls to the Vanguards (they're my favourite DW units), access to special issue ammunition for most Primaris units, if not all, and points reductions on certain things, on top of my head. Don't know the faction enough, but I'd like it if there was more than one list to use decently.

From the announcement on Warhammer Community:

"The Deathwatch are being reinforced with some exciting new content including mixed units of Primaris Space Marines and specific Stratagems for dealing with the vile and varied xenos that have the temerity to try to live in mankind’s galaxy. "

Taking them literally, this means they are adding datasheets for Primaris Marines and Stratagems specific to different Xenos races. I'm not getting my hopes up but am open to a pleasant surprise.

Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !

 Aaranis wrote:
Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !

What they got now is only a "death to the Xeno" thing of getting an additional attacks on a roll of 6 with their pittiful 2A.... Had that neen applied to shooting, it will be much better....

Yeah it shouldn't be a stratagem, I think it would fit better as an army trait, even though a more generalist trait would be more welcome. Rerolls 1 to Wound would be nice wouldn't it ? We already have Masters for rerolls to Hit.

Just having common sense options available again will be nice. Right now a Watch Captain in Terminator Armour can't even take a Power Fist.
Also, it was cool when you could take very small units of 2-3 Terminators/Vanguard Vets. Anyone else want that again?

 fr3ddy wrote:
anyone ran the FW fire raptor with deathwatch before? or with any regular SM before?

A friend of mine just started running a Fire Raptor and a Corvus at 1500. Very risky but also very fun to play (And it looks awesome on the table)

"Mixed units of Primaris"....
So we can mix Intercessors with inceptors and aggressor?
That would be interesting. I just want SIA for primaris, they should be good with it.

As long as basic non-primaris DW veterans are costed in such a way as to not be the glassiest cannon in the game I'll be happy. they could mess up a LOT of other stuff and I wouldn't mind if it meant my vets were sort of playable.

CapRichard wrote:"Mixed units of Primaris"....
So we can mix Intercessors with inceptors and aggressor?
That would be interesting. I just want SIA for primaris, they should be good with it.

Like, Primaris Kill Teams ? That would be interesting.

WindstormSCR wrote:As long as basic non-primaris DW veterans are costed in such a way as to not be the glassiest cannon in the game I'll be happy. they could mess up a LOT of other stuff and I wouldn't mind if it meant my vets were sort of playable.

Oh yes, I hope they either remake the Heavy Thunder Hammer's rules or at least give it a big points reduction. I think the overall cost of any Deathwatch stuff is too high.

I skimmed an article about Adepticon that included an interview with about the Deathwatch Codex. Lost the link before I could go back to read it, but it was talking about Primaris and flyers and new kill teams.

Anyone know the article I am talking about? Have a link?

 techsoldaten wrote:
I skimmed an article about Adepticon that included an interview with about the Deathwatch Codex. Lost the link before I could go back to read it, but it was talking about Primaris and flyers and new kill teams.

Anyone know the article I am talking about? Have a link?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/22/breaking-news-major-revealsgw-homepage-post-1/

 Coyote81 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I skimmed an article about Adepticon that included an interview with about the Deathwatch Codex. Lost the link before I could go back to read it, but it was talking about Primaris and flyers and new kill teams.

Anyone know the article I am talking about? Have a link?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/22/breaking-news-major-revealsgw-homepage-post-1/

The one I was thinking about was an interview, it wasn't on the Community site. Thank you tho!

I'm definitely interested in what bonuses will be given with mixed Primaris units.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !

They don't pay for being anti daemons. They pay most of thier tax for being able to have native deep strike, as the pts increase over base is about in line with the genestealer cult pts increases.

mmimzie wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !

They don't pay for being anti daemons. They pay most of thier tax for being able to have native deep strike, as the pts increase over base is about in line with the genestealer cult pts increases.

They pay for deep strike, but also for being psykers.

Feels like, in general, the way GW assigns points overvalues defense / psychic powers / tricks and undervalues offense. With AP- weapons, it's too easy to kill multi-wound models. An army like GK really suffers for each model lost, and there's never enough points to afford the depth you need to stay on the table.

Which is what scares me a little about the Deathwatch Codex. What DW will have over GK is better offense, but kill teams are going to remain expensive. They will still die like normal marines, so I don't think there's going to be a huge difference in how they perform over GK.

I'm just starting a GK / DW army, coming into it with this knowledge. Loading up on Razorbacks / Storm Ravens / Corvus Blackstars / anything that's not infantry to compensate.

So, how do you find the previews so far ? I'm eager to see the point costs, but they're more and more tempting to add as a second battalion to my Stygies VIII army. Hope Inquisitors from Ordo Xenos can fit in their detachments with no penalties when the CA 2018 hits.

 Aaranis wrote:
So, how do you find the previews so far ? I'm eager to see the point costs, but they're more and more tempting to add as a second battalion to my Stygies VIII army. Hope Inquisitors from Ordo Xenos can fit in their detachments with no penalties when the CA 2018 hits.

I think the most welcome additions are: SIA to intercessors/reivers, the +1 to wound stratagem.

This should basically make the Primaris Kill team the best "naked" squad, as they will have better baseline firepower than the normal marines, either by having more AP or more range or both depending on the ammo. This should leave the normal marines free to do be kitted out as super specialist without losing up the "baseline troop" in the process. I think the "all primaris" army could be run effectively with the DW rules, augmenting their ranged effectiveness by a lot. The usual frag cannon equipped KT with rerolling 1s to wound and with a +1 to wound is a magnificent threat to everything. Even just a strafing run with the +1 to wound from a Corvus should prove pretty useful. As a scalpel unit, it should be worth it.

I'm still doubting everything will be costed appropriately though, as GW seems to overcost Marines compared to other armies and they can't really differentiate Marine costs between codexes.

CapRichard wrote:
I think the most welcome additions are: SIA to intercessors/reivers, the +1 to wound stratagem.

This should basically make the Primaris Kill team the best "naked" squad, as they will have better baseline firepower than the normal marines, either by having more AP or more range or both depending on the ammo. This should leave the normal marines free to do be kitted out as super specialist without losing up the "baseline troop" in the process. I think the "all primaris" army could be run effectively with the DW rules, augmenting their ranged effectiveness by a lot. The usual frag cannon equipped KT with rerolling 1s to wound and with a +1 to wound is a magnificent threat to everything. Even just a strafing run with the +1 to wound from a Corvus should prove pretty useful. As a scalpel unit, it should be worth it.

I'm still doubting everything will be costed appropriately though, as GW seems to overcost Marines compared to other armies and they can't really differentiate Marine costs between codexes.

How will the Mission Tactics work with the Doctrines? For example if you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 and also get +1 to Wound rolls does that mean you never really roll a 1 and can't re-roll anything? Or would you re-roll the 1 then add the +1

 osmesis wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
I think the most welcome additions are: SIA to intercessors/reivers, the +1 to wound stratagem.

This should basically make the Primaris Kill team the best "naked" squad, as they will have better baseline firepower than the normal marines, either by having more AP or more range or both depending on the ammo. This should leave the normal marines free to do be kitted out as super specialist without losing up the "baseline troop" in the process. I think the "all primaris" army could be run effectively with the DW rules, augmenting their ranged effectiveness by a lot. The usual frag cannon equipped KT with rerolling 1s to wound and with a +1 to wound is a magnificent threat to everything. Even just a strafing run with the +1 to wound from a Corvus should prove pretty useful. As a scalpel unit, it should be worth it.

I'm still doubting everything will be costed appropriately though, as GW seems to overcost Marines compared to other armies and they can't really differentiate Marine costs between codexes.

How will the Mission Tactics work with the Doctrines? For example if you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 and also get +1 to Wound rolls does that mean you never really roll a 1 and can't re-roll anything? Or would you re-roll the 1 then add the +1

Rerolls before modifiers.

RogueApiary wrote:
Rerolls before modifiers.

I am looking forward to this vs my mates Praetor Jetbikes now

How does everyone feel about the suggested Primaris Teams?

Close Assault Specialists
6x Intercessors with bolt rifles
1x Inceptor with assault bolters
2x Aggressors with flamestorm gauntlets
1x Reivers with bolt carbine

This unit is designed to fight up close and personal, closing in right on enemy lines and unleashing punishing short-ranged firepower. The Aggressors act as a deterrent to any unit willing to charge you while providing some extra punch in close combat, while the Inceptor allows you to engage units in your turn before retreating and laying down fire at the next opportunity. Staying close will allow you to capitalise on the armour piercing power of vengeance rounds as well as the Reiver’s shock grenades.

Firebase
5x Intercessors with 4x stalker bolt rifles and 1x grenade launcher
4x Hellblasters with heavy plasma incinerators
1x Aggressor with auto boltstorm gauntlets and fragstorm grenade launcher

This unit is designed to sit back on an objective and provide long-ranged supporting fire. The Intercessors will be able to reliably stack up wounds with Hellfire rounds, as well as providing a handy ablative screen for the Hellblasters, while the Aggressor will let you move and shoot, meaning you won’t have to sacrifice mobility when taking more powerful Heavy weapons.

Assault Firebase
5x Intercessors with auto bolt rifles
3x Hellblasters with assault plasma incinerators
1x Aggressor with flamestorm gauntlets
1 x Inceptor with two plasma exterminators

This unit is a twist on the above, designed to operate at mid-range. Thanks to the Aggressor, you’ll be able to advance and fire your assault weapons without penalty, while the Inceptor means that getting charged won’t stop you from retreating and firing.

I think that the assault firebase can work well putting pressure on a flank, maybe with the boltstorm gauntlets instead of the flamer and another hellblaster instead of the inceptor, but the design is sound.

The firebase looks solid, i would not pick the aggressor with it, it's wasted points for a team that has to be at range. Also I wonder what will happen to the stalker bolter squad, usually used for this role...

Problem for both is the usual: durability and transport.

CapRichard wrote:
I think that the assault firebase can work well putting pressure on a flank, maybe with the boltstorm gauntlets instead of the flamer and another hellblaster instead of the inceptor, but the design is sound.

The firebase looks solid, i would not pick the aggressor with it, it's wasted points for a team that has to be at range. Also I wonder what will happen to the stalker bolter squad, usually used for this role...

Problem for both is the usual: durability and transport.

Durability is much higher than normal marines, and transports aren't going to help you much if your role is backfield objective camping. The Aggressor is a kind of difficult choice. On one hand, he's an amazing counter charge unit and provides your gunline unit with mobility that it would not normally have, but on the other hand those random games where nobody is in range of his weapons all game would feel pretty lame.

There’s a lot of strong anti SM sentiment on this forum - mostly people that haven’t adapted yet - no matter how you slice it if DW is properly costed this will be a powerful addition to the Imperium.

How do everybody feel on the "anti Xeno" stratagem? I think the DW is bullying some relatively "weaker" Xeno factions, but against strong factions those "tally" Stratagem still not offering enough punch.

Specifically,

Orks are pretty screwd by the DW stratagem, penalty in charge inches for each overwatch casauties taken will really mess up the green tide if they are charging in PKT with Aggressor member.

Necron would likely took a beating for the -1 for RP rolls, but the experience of the Necron part of me just shout out that the Necron units will simply die in one round if they are likely to cause trouble to the opponent so the RP will more often not cone into play. It will be a bonus but Necron armies no longer live and die to the RP any more.

Tau might took a hard beating as the Stratagem simply shrug off all the marker light token for 1CP ! It might really lower the accuracy of the Tau firepower as naturally, only their Commander have high enough BS while everything else have mid level BS only.

Nidz. The stratagem gives a little bonus fighting the Great Devourers. But tbh, sniping Synapse Characters is not as great as it sounds. First, The real creatures that pose serious threat against Marine arimes is either not synapse creature like Exocrine, Hive Guard, Genestealer hordes. Or are those big enough it can already been freely targetted like Flyrant. The only bonus this 2CP stratagem granted is shoot at Nerothropes, or Malanthropes or the overcosted Broodlord. The last one ate seldom seem on the table top in competitive Nidz army, and the former two are tough nuts due to hard to hit and inv saves. Furthermore, now the Synapse range is 24" instead of 12", and the penalty of IB is just a -1 to hit instead of the Nidz eating themselves or forced to go to ground. Soooooo, who cares if getting a Synapse Creature killed???

The anti Eldar one is simply plain trash for its costs of 2CP. 1st, Eldar fly units usually have mid to long range firepower so no need to move into 12" range. 2nd, Eldar has massive trickery to make themselves hard to hit, coupled with the penalty -1 to hit of this stratagem, we are likely hitting on 5s after paying 2CPs.... WTH!!!!!

What do you guys think? Any hidden gems to be discovered?

I'm just worried we are turning into Primariswatch and my existing kill teams are going to be trimmed to hyper specific roles maybe only 1 or 2 squads in an army list now, not even sure I want to bother fitting my Corvus in either when I could just take more of the new kill teams

Any bonus is a good bonus IMO. Some are better than others.