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2017/12/13 21:27:58
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire
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bananathug wrote:Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP? edit for typo
I just looked up the GT Heat 1 (I couldn't find the Heat 2 results with a quick google search) - of the top 15, there was 1 CWE total. And it was 9th. There was also a Ynnari, but it took a lower place (not sure what books their list was drawn from). The finals for the GT haven't even happened yet, so I'm not sure how you're alleging Eldar "won" that, but okay. It seems to fit with about the same level of logic we've been seeing in all of the other anti-Eldar posts.
Also, I can't help but notice all of the assumptions you're making in your post - it reads like, "Eldar are OP if they have 497 command points to spend and can deep strike their entire army."
As a fun aside, I stumbled on a Frontline Gaming podcast just now that debated what faction was the best, but the only contenders were Imperium and Chaos. Eldar weren't even on the radar.
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2017/12/13 21:36:12
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Xenomancers wrote:So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn
Yet, numerous posters on this thread have proven that this is only the case for particularly favorable matchups. Against 2 wound infantry models, sure, I can make the calculus show SS punching significantly above their weight class. By the same token, I can pull examples which show them being stymied by units that cost significantly less.
So, again, hasty generalization.
Xenomancers wrote:- with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem-
To be fair, "just destroying them", is the standard defense methodology that is applied to 99.999999% of units in the game. Furthermore, in this edition the ability to disengage from close combat begs the question of, what defense were you expecting to mount outside of destroying them?
Xenomancers wrote:it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.
Again, this is a hasty generalization, it assumes you have no effective means to engage the unit. It assumes you're operating at every possible disadvantage available in the match. It assumes you've designed your army so poorly that it can't overwhelm the basic wound mechanics against a 9 man unit that is toughness 4! Quite frankly, I could easily leap to the conclusion it assumes you're utterly incompetent (which is an ad homniem logical fallacy on my part as well as a hasty generalization).
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2017/12/13 21:39:45
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Xenomancers wrote: DarknessEternal wrote: Xenomancers wrote:The truth is - considering they steamroll armies almost by themselves (when you factor in the supporting fire of the eldar army behind them
They steamroll armies by themselves, but only when they receive supporting fire? By themselves. Supporting fire.
Snuh?
There is a problem with your way of thought.
So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.
Hey, look over there. No in the distance. It's the point.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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2017/12/13 21:43:41
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Xenomancers wrote:...So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.
...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?
(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)
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2017/12/13 21:44:19
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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TwinPoleTheory wrote: Xenomancers wrote:For someone so obsessed with fallacy. You are guilty of at least 3 in this statement.
This is absolutely true.
Xenomancers wrote:I'd like to know how you come up with this - What is this? "According to Xeno there is no difference between a Land Raider and a Space Marine model with a Land Raider stat line, they're the same!"
Because PPW seems to be the only metric you have any interest in, at which point, all other variables associated with a given unit are thrown out the window.
Xenomancers wrote:Also please tell me what my straw-man argument is so I can debunk it immediately.
With another appeal from authority or another hasty generalization? Perhaps we'll be regaled with another anecdotal data point that will be used to make a hasty generalization.
Straw Man - When a person ignores one actual position, and presents an exaggerated one
Seriously Xeno, this is your entire schtick.
Ultimately, the sad part is that you're often only wrong by degrees, not entirely, but you absolutely refuse to put any work into your arguments. Several people on this thread have gone through the effort to actually do the math, discuss the scenarios, related variables, you know, do the work. You do not.
PPW is not the only metric I am interested in. Mobility and synergy with supporting units and stratagems is another very important factor and spears absolutely top the list with synergy as well - I try to argue this point but then people just start saying "oh the unit requires support so it's not actually OP". Syngery isn't something tangible like math (PPW) though so I am much more interested in the mathematics argument. The unit is OP for more than one reason - for starters it's undercosted as I demonstrated here on page 5.
[Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game( ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)
An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)
Totally balanced...]
You proceeded to argue with me that a plasma pistol wasn't a proper comparison without offering a better comparison. Statistically the weapons are very similar and both have pros and cons - I'd say their point value must be within 1 point at least? No opinion or better comparison was given.
You responded with this-
[Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.
Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.]
I responded with this
[Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.
A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)
This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.]
You didn't respond to the qubit about windriders. I'll go as far as to say they aren't a great unit on the table top compared to what you can get in other units but it's mostly due to synergy is better with other units. They can use the same stratagems as the guardians but the guardians make more use of them with better PPW at the cost of loss of mobility - guardians don't need mobility when they deep strike though. Someone even mentioned a tournament where 3 max units TLSC windriders and 3 max SS units won a GT in Europe.
Feel free to argue with ether of my assessments of these units costs.
It's synergies are also some of the best in the game.
Extremely high probably of first turn assault.
Extremely high defensive buff potential
Highest value of guide cast
Highest value per doomed target
Near unrestricted mobility (with quicken + siam han strategem) with no penalty other than CP cost
Eldar IMO do have the strongest codex even if you took shining spears out of it. Automatically Appended Next Post: HuskyWarhammer wrote:bananathug wrote:Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP? edit for typo
I just looked up the GT Heat 1 (I couldn't find the Heat 2 results with a quick google search) - of the top 15, there was 1 CWE total. And it was 9th. There was also a Ynnari, but it took a lower place (not sure what books their list was drawn from). The finals for the GT haven't even happened yet, so I'm not sure how you're alleging Eldar "won" that, but okay. It seems to fit with about the same level of logic we've been seeing in all of the other anti-Eldar posts.
Also, I can't help but notice all of the assumptions you're making in your post - it reads like, "Eldar are OP if they have 497 command points to spend and can deep strike their entire army."
As a fun aside, I stumbled on a Frontline Gaming podcast just now that debated what faction was the best, but the only contenders were Imperium and Chaos. Eldar weren't even on the radar.
Something is wrong with that warhammer world GT man...the last heat had 2 space marine armies in the top 10 and 1 features 30 tactical marines the other didn't even have Guilliman....Eldar are scorching most GT's I'm looking at and space marines are non existent. CSM are obviously top tier with magnus and morty and a host of extremely efficient and versatile options - imperium (imperial guard possibly totaling celestine) another obvious top pick. Eldar codex came out after them though and it takes time for podcasters and people to actually get a grasp on whats happening. Any discussion about top armies right now that doesn't include eldar is somewhat of a joke IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AnomanderRake wrote: Xenomancers wrote:...So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.
...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?
(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)
2+/3++ with protect / -1 to hit with conceal(this is usually quicken though) / 5+++ with fortune....Essentially magnus level durability with the right buffs.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/13 21:55:56
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/12/13 21:57:01
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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AnomanderRake wrote:
...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?
(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)
Echoing this. I've been using spears as part of a Yme- loc style force for quite a few games now (~15 so far) using the iyanden traits since it's vehicle heavy army style. Even webway striking with quicken/protect support (both of which are far from guaranteed since you can only CP reroll 1 of them) they hit hard and then get shot to ribbons or counter-assaulted and crumple because of the stripped invuln save.
Any argument about the points cost of spears needs to have a realistic perspective that they are in most cases, estimating 85%, a one-turn wonder. they will arrive, might get a better charge chance via quicken (~60% cast chance with a single die reroll) only get to shoot the lances IF they get quicken, then charge [95% chance to make with quicken, ~43% without assuming you use even more CP]
They have that single window to earn thier points back, against whatever targets they can hit, before most even remotely competent opponents will turn whatever firepower is required onto them, or charge them with a moderately passable assault unit, where T4 2W and a 3+ armor save won't do a whole lot to save them.
[edit] To stave off the "But Guide" and "but muh Fortune!" comments, I think the single best fix I have seen on the subject is not nerfing spears or reapers, but simply capping the unit size at six and five respectively. The problem you seem to be apoplectic about is not the units themselves, but how efficient it is to saturate large units of aspect warriors with multiple supporting buffs.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/13 22:00:39
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2017/12/13 22:14:58
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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WindstormSCR wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:
...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?
(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)
Echoing this. I've been using spears as part of a Yme- loc style force for quite a few games now (~15 so far) using the iyanden traits since it's vehicle heavy army style. Even webway striking with quicken/protect support (both of which are far from guaranteed since you can only CP reroll 1 of them) they hit hard and then get shot to ribbons or counter-assaulted and crumple because of the stripped invuln save.
Any argument about the points cost of spears needs to have a realistic perspective that they are in most cases, estimating 85%, a one-turn wonder. they will arrive, might get a better charge chance via quicken (~60% cast chance with a single die reroll) only get to shoot the lances IF they get quicken, then charge [95% chance to make with quicken, ~43% without assuming you use even more CP]
They have that single window to earn thier points back, against whatever targets they can hit, before most even remotely competent opponents will turn whatever firepower is required onto them, or charge them with a moderately passable assault unit, where T4 2W and a 3+ armor save won't do a whole lot to save them.
You are using the absolute worst army trait in the codex so that tells me a little something about your problem. It tells me you aren't cheesing them out as much as you could be. I recommend you add 3 spirit seers to your army if you don't have any (You want protect/conceal/and quicken [use command point for quicken and nothing else]) run your shining spears as a 9 man unit as ether siamhan (gives you even more movement - sometimes even removes the need to quicken - it helps you charge more units and get prefered targets for sure though/ aliotoc (gives alpha strike protection so you don't need to start in reserves)/ or Ulthwe - have 6+ FNP and can bring 20 super guardians to help you break down screens.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/12/13 23:02:05
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire
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Xenomancers wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: HuskyWarhammer wrote:bananathug wrote:Um, eldar not slaughtering the tourney scene. The last to large tournament winners were eldar (the one in a Scandinavian country and the most recent GW GT). Hell look at the non-winners and you will see eldar disproportionately placing at the top tables. Is your argument that if all armies at the top table aren't eldar then eldar aren't OP? edit for typo I just looked up the GT Heat 1 (I couldn't find the Heat 2 results with a quick google search) - of the top 15, there was 1 CWE total. And it was 9th. There was also a Ynnari, but it took a lower place (not sure what books their list was drawn from). The finals for the GT haven't even happened yet, so I'm not sure how you're alleging Eldar "won" that, but okay. It seems to fit with about the same level of logic we've been seeing in all of the other anti-Eldar posts. Also, I can't help but notice all of the assumptions you're making in your post - it reads like, "Eldar are OP if they have 497 command points to spend and can deep strike their entire army." As a fun aside, I stumbled on a Frontline Gaming podcast just now that debated what faction was the best, but the only contenders were Imperium and Chaos. Eldar weren't even on the radar.
Something is wrong with that warhammer world GT man...the last heat had 2 space marine armies in the top 10 and 1 features 30 tactical marines the other didn't even have Guilliman....Eldar are scorching most GT's I'm looking at and space marines are non existent. CSM are obviously top tier with magnus and morty and a host of extremely efficient and versatile options - imperium (imperial guard possibly totaling celestine) another obvious top pick. Eldar codex came out after them though and it takes time for podcasters and people to actually get a grasp on whats happening. Any discussion about top armies right now that doesn't include eldar is somewhat of a joke IMO. Uhhh...that podcast was dated 12/3/17. Fairly sure the Eldar codex is more then 10 days old. This is a good example of your strawmanning - you just brush off the actual point and insert your own fake news narrative ("that tournament was a joke" or "The podcast is too old and surely these professionals have no idea how the game works") without knowing the facts or acknowledging that the facts directly disproved a guy you've been repeatedly agreeing with as correct. Dismiss the truth, ignore the facts, argue something else. For someone who is so quick to call others a "joke," you're proving your opinions more and more a laughingstock.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/13 23:04:26
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2017/12/13 23:04:29
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Xenomancers wrote:WindstormSCR wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:
...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?
(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)
Echoing this. I've been using spears as part of a Yme- loc style force for quite a few games now (~15 so far) using the iyanden traits since it's vehicle heavy army style. Even webway striking with quicken/protect support (both of which are far from guaranteed since you can only CP reroll 1 of them) they hit hard and then get shot to ribbons or counter-assaulted and crumple because of the stripped invuln save.
Any argument about the points cost of spears needs to have a realistic perspective that they are in most cases, estimating 85%, a one-turn wonder. they will arrive, might get a better charge chance via quicken (~60% cast chance with a single die reroll) only get to shoot the lances IF they get quicken, then charge [95% chance to make with quicken, ~43% without assuming you use even more CP]
They have that single window to earn thier points back, against whatever targets they can hit, before most even remotely competent opponents will turn whatever firepower is required onto them, or charge them with a moderately passable assault unit, where T4 2W and a 3+ armor save won't do a whole lot to save them.
You are using the absolute worst army trait in the codex so that tells me a little something about your problem. It tells me you aren't cheesing them out as much as you could be. I recommend you add 3 spirit seers to your army if you don't have any (You want protect/conceal/and quicken [use command point for quicken and nothing else]) run your shining spears as a 9 man unit as ether siamhan (gives you even more movement - sometimes even removes the need to quicken - it helps you charge more units and get prefered targets for sure though/ aliotoc (gives alpha strike protection so you don't need to start in reserves)/ or Ulthwe - have 6+ FNP and can bring 20 super guardians to help you break down screens.
So you are complainning that Spears are OP because cheesing up an army in order to buff them they become OP, so for your reasoning Genestealers are Op because you can cheese up a nid army in order to get larger units of them charging anywhere in the table top, plus they are cheap so easier to bring more chaf to clear down screens too?
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2017/12/13 23:10:11
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Xenomancers wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote: Xenomancers wrote:...So this very powerful unit which is killing or tying up well over it's point cost practically every turn - with no defense but just destroying them because they fly over units and can assault after falling back with a stratagem- it's a pretty big problem - it leaves an entire army behind them just lighting you up while you throw everything you have into the least points efficient unit to shoot. It's about as close to an auto win condition that this game has.
...Back up a step. How much trouble are you having killing 2W/T4/3+/4++ models again?
(I've tried playing Shining Spears a bit since they're the closest thing to my Cloud Dancer Voidstorm bands that has official rules this edition, and this whole thread has me kind of baffled given how glass-cannon I found them to be. They were effective if I got turn one and they got a good hit in before they got blasted off the table, yeah, but they got blasted off the table by a stiff breeze, so...)
2+/3++ with protect / -1 to hit with conceal(this is usually quicken though) / 5+++ with fortune....Essentially magnus level durability with the right buffs.
"Essentially Magnus-level durability"? With T4? No Invulnerable rerolls? Three psychic powers that have to be stacked to get that far rather than one buff on top of his built-in properties? 480pts and three HQ choices worth of psykers to pull off that setup?
I'm not following you here.
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2017/12/13 23:15:47
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Xenomancers wrote:PPW is not the only metric I am interested in. Mobility and synergy with supporting units and stratagems is another very important factor and spears absolutely top the list with synergy as well - I try to argue this point but then people just start saying "oh the unit requires support so it's not actually OP".
But that's not how you started the debate, that's where you moved it to, that's called moving the goalposts, it's a disingenuous method of debate. If you want to have an entire discussion about synergy, who best take advantage of it, who has the best, seriously, we'll need a database server.
Xenomancers wrote:Syngery isn't something tangible like math (PPW) though so I am much more interested in the mathematics argument. The unit is OP for more than one reason - for starters it's undercosted as I demonstrated here on page 5.
[Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game( ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)
An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)
This is not a demonstration, this is a declaration.
Furthermore, your example fails to take into consideration available weapon options or the manner in which the unit will be used. I could, for example, argue that because of their ability to stay at range, Windriders will more often benefit from a cover save, mitigating the points cost associated with the +1 armor save. Mobility has been relegated to being a largely offensive stat, since the prevalence of flyers, deep strike, etc, significantly detracts from a unit's ability to use movement to actually protect itself.
Several posters have already pointed out that the shooting weapon is significantly less useful than a Plasma Pistol, due to lack of range, lack of strength, and lack of ability to improve it's strength. The Plasma Pistol hits 2 key Strength breakpoints in the game, specifically, Toughness 7 (almost all monstrous creatures and base transports) and Toughness 8 (any high end transport or super-heavy). At the range you're firing these weapons, the fact that the Plasma Pistol might kill the model is fairly insignificant, and since we're involving buffs and synergy in all this now, I can safely say that 80% of the time, nobody's firing a Plasma Pistol on overcharge without the ability to re-roll 1s anyways.
As for the Lance in CC, you routinely ignore the fact that this weapon turns to crap in subsequent rounds of combat, getting us back around to the fact that this unit is a one-turn wonder, at best. I'm sorry, perhaps it's just playing marines for so long, I just have no real fear of the Strength 3 power weapon. Especially when it's ripping out a wild and crazy 2 attacks per round.
So, for 8 points per model, on a unit I can reasonably expect to perform for one turn, this seems not wildly out of balance. I might bump their cost by a few points, but it's hardly the world beater that you're selling it as on the thread.
Xenomancers wrote:You proceeded to argue with me that a plasma pistol wasn't a proper comparison without offering a better comparison. Statistically the weapons are very similar and both have pros and cons - I'd say their point value must be within 1 point at least? No opinion or better comparison was given.
You're right, there aren't a lot of good comparisons for the Lance, it's one of those funky Eldar weapons that defies easy comparison. However, making a straight comparison to a Plasma Pistol and calling that the cost is not the right way to go about it either. If that were the case then Plasma Guns would cost the same for Scions and Guardsmen, but they don't, obviously the unit carrying the weapon factors directly into the cost of the weapon, which means all kinds of squishy logic goes into determining points costs. A comparable Eldar or Dark Eldar weapon would probably be the best place to start such a comparison.
Xenomancers wrote:Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.
A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)
This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.]
I didn't respond, because this is again, declaration, not demonstration. Great, you believe that this an appropriately costed unit. Based on what? Your own authority? Oversimplifying the attributes in a vacuum until you get the result you want to present?
Additionally, you left out the ability of every model in the unit to upgrade their weapon (and significantly increase their ability to engage at range). How many points is that worth?
Xenomancers wrote:Someone even mentioned a tournament where 3 max units TLSC windriders and 3 max SS units won a GT in Europe.
Seriously, some guy said they rocked the European GT, they must be bad ass? Go find tourney results, so lazy, ffs.
Get into a squishy, largely unsupportable, argument about whether a Laser Lance should be 5 points or 6 points or capable of destroying the Death Star without firing into the exhaust port? Please, shoot me now.
Every list has amazing synergies, they tend to be the subject of whatever, "oh my god, I got rolled at the game store by X" thread is running this week. I personally think CSM got the best, most generally appicable and easy to user psychic powers in the game, I would even agree that Eldar psychic powers are definitely on par with them. The downside being that they have to package those powers into scrawny little elf bodies that turn to dust under chainaxes.
Welcome to the club, seriously, what army doesn't have highly effective first turn assault options other than some of the Index lists and AM?
Super, me too!
Do you see how this is an absolute declaration? Do you see how there is no information to back this up other than you saying so? Do you understand why this is a hasty generalization or at best an appeal from authority (yours)?
Xenomancers wrote:Near unrestricted mobility (with quicken + siam han strategem) with no penalty other than CP cost
Lots of armies have units with "near unrestricted mobility", this is not uncommon, one might take from the emerging trends within the current edition, that we should expect pretty much every army to have some units with "near unrestricted mobility" because, as I mentioned earlier, it's not what it used to be.
Xenomancers wrote:Eldar IMO do have the strongest codex even if you took shining spears out of it.
Do you see how this is not an absolute declaration? Do you see how this doesn't require information to back this up other than you saying so? Do you understand why this isn't a hasty generalization or at best an appeal from authority (yours)?
Xenomancers wrote:Something is wrong with that warhammer world GT man...the last heat had 2 space marine armies in the top 10 and 1 features 30 tactical marines the other didn't even have Guilliman....Eldar are scorching most GT's I'm looking at and space marines are non existent.
Because it fails to confirm your bias? Seriously, post where you're getting your "results" from, off the back of a truck from some dude downtown is not legit, fyi.
Xenomancers wrote:CSM are obviously top tier with magnus and morty and a host of extremely efficient and versatile options - imperium (imperial guard possibly totaling celestine) another obvious top pick.
Yes, the soup has simmered for awhile and some very nice combos are starting to come out of the woodwork for CSM. I still wish there was a place at the table for CSM squads and Havocs, but I'll settle for the ability to field some competitive lists for the time being. Imperium soup will always be strong, just too many armies and units for them to pull from not to have the tools they need at their disposal.
Xenomancers wrote:Eldar codex came out after them though and it takes time for podcasters and people to actually get a grasp on whats happening.
I would agree that modelling and painting and calculation lag are limiting the appearance of competitive Eldar list, but that excuse is dwindling by the day.
Xenomancers wrote:2+/3++ with protect / -1 to hit with conceal(this is usually quicken though) / 5+++ with fortune....Essentially magnus level durability with the right buffs.
So basically, you're loading up almost all the buffs available to you onto one unit and then making your comparison. That's moving the goalposts (a lot), and is an entirely different debate that is way more complex than measuring a single unit in a vacuum. You're talking about databases of comparisons now.
Ok, that was a long post and a lot of formatting, I'm done for today. Xeno, just stop making absolute declarations, have a discussion, don't make an announcement, ffs, the sky will be there in the morning.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/13 23:38:56
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2017/12/13 23:16:51
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Xenomancers wrote:
You are using the absolute worst army trait in the codex so that tells me a little something about your problem. It tells me you aren't cheesing them out as much as you could be. I recommend you add 3 spirit seers to your army if you don't have any (You want protect/conceal/and quicken [use command point for quicken and nothing else]) run your shining spears as a 9 man unit as ether siamhan (gives you even more movement - sometimes even removes the need to quicken - it helps you charge more units and get prefered targets for sure though/ aliotoc (gives alpha strike protection so you don't need to start in reserves)/ or Ulthwe - have 6+ FNP and can bring 20 super guardians to help you break down screens.
you really don't get the point do you.
NO UNIT in the entire game of 40k should be evaluated for PPW by taking into account the perfectly optimal situation, but an average one.
my use case for them is exactly that, an average. I wouldn't evaluate genestealers by assuming all of the buffs they can get with some hive fleets as 'standard' and I sure as don't evaluate space marine units assuming that they have bobby G, a lieutenant and an apothecary within 6"!
the cost of a buff should not be on the unit its applied to, but a separate issue of costing of the unit GIVING the buff. so when you try and argue for a points per model change to a unit, don't bring buffs into it at all except perhaps stratagems (which in this case have little bearing)
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2017/12/13 23:32:35
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Fixture of Dakka
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AnomanderRake wrote:
"Essentially Magnus-level durability"? With T4? No Invulnerable rerolls? Three psychic powers that have to be stacked to get that far rather than one buff on top of his built-in properties? 480pts and three HQ choices worth of psykers to pull off that setup?
I'm not following you here.
Let's not forget he also said they are capable of steamrolling an army by themselves (but somehow only with massive support). I'm not sure he know what either of those conditions means.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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2017/12/13 23:37:34
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Xeno, if you're not tracking, here's the issue we are having (yet again...)
You're complaining about a unit. Your complaint boils down to inconsistent mathhammer.
Then you say "oh, by the way they're spending a stratagem or two, casting several spells on them, supporting them with deepstriking infantry, and firing long-distance heavy weapon support..." None of those things, in any way shape or form have anything to do with the Shining Spears. If you do that to ANY unit in the game, it's going to be good. Your opponent has figured out a fully supported, strong tactic and is using it against you...that's not caused by the cost of a unit.
I played against a crazy Dark Angel army the other weak. It was one of those super bubbles. There was a tactical squad in cover which was able to re-roll 1's, had invuln saves, were -1 to be targeted, could re-roll wounds, etc. Does this mean that Tactical marines are broken or amazing? No. The player just gamed the system (correctly) to make them strong. It'd be akin to me complaining about tactical marines for several pages and then saying "Oh, by the way...there was a dark shroud, Azrael, a leiutenant, an ancient..." etc.
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2017/12/14 00:05:01
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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While this thread has gone on, Eldar have taken over the world. A unit of Shining Spears singlehandedly wiped out the Ultramarines, and won 2 GT's at the same time.
Reality will impose its will on this thread shortly, though I imagine Xeno will hang on like a Japanese soldier stranded on a Pacific island.
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2017/12/14 09:45:35
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Unfortunately, I missed the GW GT Heat 2 finals so not sure on what the Eldar list that won it contained – however, it is also worth noting that they DID NOT use Chapter Approved in the event, so in all likely hood the list was heavy on Reapers, Hemlocks and Spectres.
As for the Swedish event, I believe most of the top Eldar lists and the one that won (I think) all contained Ynnari detachments, despite the nerf – though, again not 100% sure if the FAQ was in place for that event.
Xeno, I genuinely think that a 10 point increase per spear, and a 20 point increase for the Exarch is just OTT. I am, however, more on the side of SM bikers etc needing a points decrease, as opposed to other units increasing to match others.
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2017/12/14 10:03:49
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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Kdash wrote:Unfortunately, I missed the GW GT Heat 2 finals so not sure on what the Eldar list that won it contained – however, it is also worth noting that they DID NOT use Chapter Approved in the event, so in all likely hood the list was heavy on Reapers, Hemlocks and Spectres.
As for the Swedish event, I believe most of the top Eldar lists and the one that won (I think) all contained Ynnari detachments, despite the nerf – though, again not 100% sure if the FAQ was in place for that event.
Xeno, I genuinely think that a 10 point increase per spear, and a 20 point increase for the Exarch is just OTT. I am, however, more on the side of SM bikers etc needing a points decrease, as opposed to other units increasing to match others.
Even before Chapter Approved (post Ynnari nerf), Spears were better than Spectres. It wasn't as obvious then, but it was still the case.
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2017/12/14 11:19:20
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Fafnir, your anger over the Spectre nerf is impressive.
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2017/12/14 16:16:59
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Kdash wrote:Unfortunately, I missed the GW GT Heat 2 finals so not sure on what the Eldar list that won it contained – however, it is also worth noting that they DID NOT use Chapter Approved in the event, so in all likely hood the list was heavy on Reapers, Hemlocks and Spectres.
As for the Swedish event, I believe most of the top Eldar lists and the one that won (I think) all contained Ynnari detachments, despite the nerf – though, again not 100% sure if the FAQ was in place for that event.
Xeno, I genuinely think that a 10 point increase per spear, and a 20 point increase for the Exarch is just OTT. I am, however, more on the side of SM bikers etc needing a points decrease, as opposed to other units increasing to match others.
Lots of units could use some price adjustments - I'm not disagreeing with that. It isn't going to happen though. The easiest way to fix the game is to Nerf problem units.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/12/14 16:25:12
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Xenomancers wrote:Lots of units could use some price adjustments - I'm not disagreeing with that. It isn't going to happen though. The easiest way to fix the game is to Nerf problem units.
Possibly, or it becomes a never-ending game of whack-a-mole if you don't approach the problem holistically.
However, approaching the problem holistically is difficult to do with the staggered release of codices.
Which is probably why GW is doing the yearly CA book.
Once we've gone through another year of codex releases, next year's CA will be able to take another, more comprehensive, balancing pass that is able to use data from more tournaments, more codex interaction, and more community feedback.
The idea that we're ever going to get Chess or Go levels of balance is probably a pipe dream in a game with as many squishy variables as this one, but each year they'll tweak it some more, and you'll have to play under the cruel injustices of your GW overlords for another year until they take another pass at it, and so on, and so forth, until 9th edition comes out and makes all your models crap again.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2017/12/14 20:26:21
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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xmbk wrote:Fafnir, your anger over the Spectre nerf is impressive.
Not going to lie, I'm a bit bitter that they nerfed a unit that I had just spent a good amount of money on into Oblivion while leaving the most powerful units in the codex untouched.
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2017/12/14 20:57:09
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Morphing Obliterator
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On the plus side we'll have Dark Angels flyers running around as of next week with -2/-3 (depending on who gets hit with Aversion) to hit.
It's clearly time to start a new complaint thread.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2017/12/15 07:01:06
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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TwinPoleTheory wrote:On the plus side we'll have Dark Angels flyers running around as of next week with -2/-3 (depending on who gets hit with Aversion) to hit.
It's clearly time to start a new complaint thread.
Easy solution there, take out the Darkshroud.
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2017/12/15 10:05:13
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Spoletta wrote: TwinPoleTheory wrote:On the plus side we'll have Dark Angels flyers running around as of next week with -2/-3 (depending on who gets hit with Aversion) to hit.
It's clearly time to start a new complaint thread.
Easy solution there, take out the Darkshroud.
Easier solution - tell them to stop cheating.
Darkshrouds only affect infantry and bikers now, so they won't get the bonus on their flyers.
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2017/12/15 15:46:59
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2017/12/15 15:56:30
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire
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Xenomancers wrote:Dark angels will probably be the best marines. However - they are still marines.
It's true. Marines never win any tournaments or have any overpowered models to make them even approaching competitive (not to mention get what amounts to an entire codex of new toys this edition). *rolls eyes*
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2017/12/15 15:59:58
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Dark Angels have nothing on Blood Angels. +1 to wound...that's Space Marine infantry punching Eldar/Guard to death on a roll of 2+, and literally punching tanks and wounding them on a roll of 4+.
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2017/12/15 16:10:32
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Elbows wrote:Dark Angels have nothing on Blood Angels. +1 to wound...that's Space Marine infantry punching Eldar/Guard to death on a roll of 2+, and literally punching tanks and wounding them on a roll of 4+.
The key word is punching - will they hit harder than bezerkers? No - maybe as hard. I think blood angels will be middle of the pack okay. They got some key things that are important (double moves + some other mobility generator). Dark angels will do better because they have Azreal and what apears to be good stratagem support and eventually Lion El Johnson.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 16:11:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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2017/12/15 16:15:06
Subject: Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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On a unit-per-unit basis, I don't think they can handle berserkers, but I think someone will find a way of making the most out of that rather insanely strong chapter trait.
Remember even things like their dreadnoughts...if they have a Strength 9 or better weapon will be damaging LeMan Russes, Land Raiders etc...on a 2+. There is some meat to be chewed there for sure.
Dark Angels are a parking lot if you want to play them super-strong and that's inflexible. Annoying, but inflexible. I think in the end, Space Wolves will be strongest. If they keep the rather ridiculous obsession with Wulfen being one of the best units in the game, you'll see them trounce every other form of marine army.
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2017/12/15 16:26:44
Subject: Re:Shining Spears - the new OP?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Kdash wrote:
Easier solution - tell them to stop cheating.
Darkshrouds only affect infantry and bikers now, so they won't get the bonus on their flyers.
Not disputing, but curious, where did you see this? I pulled my info from an online review, so it may not be entirely accurate. I know Azrael's bubble got nerfed to infantry and bikers, I didn't see the change to the Darkshroud. Automatically Appended Next Post: Elbows wrote:On a unit-per-unit basis, I don't think they can handle berserkers, but I think someone will find a way of making the most out of that rather insanely strong chapter trait.
Properly setup Death Company marines can be rolling with up to 6 attacks each at Strength 5, with +1 to wound. It's more than enough to do what they need to do. For 2 CP, one properly buffed Death Company marine can be ripping out upwards of 9 wounds potentially against GEQ (7.56 with a deviation of 1.67).
Elbows wrote:Remember even things like their dreadnoughts...if they have a Strength 9 or better weapon will be damaging LeMan Russes, Land Raiders etc...on a 2+. There is some meat to be chewed there for sure.
Mephiston wounding everything in the game on a 2+, with a FnP of 4+ re-rolling 1s seems pretty good too.
Elbows wrote:Dark Angels are a parking lot if you want to play them super-strong and that's inflexible. Annoying, but inflexible. I think in the end, Space Wolves will be strongest. If they keep the rather ridiculous obsession with Wulfen being one of the best units in the game, you'll see them trounce every other form of marine army.
Nah, Azrael's bubble got nerfed to infantry and bikers, no more DA parking lot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 16:33:53
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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