Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

67 points is another Scout squad. 3 more free points is a Combi-Plasma on them or you can just do the Heavy Bolter for cheap access to the Helfire Round.

I'm not seeing any downside. The squad doesn't need protection as it's going to die.

Since you're deployed even when the opponent goes first, it could die before it does anything. In which case you've potentially traded 200+ actually dangerous points for some Scouts. You don't have to use Pods, but their purpose is clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

Amusingly, Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters trade pretty well against basic Guardsmen, point for point. I also like that, unlike the Razorback, they can move and still shoot at BS3+. Razorbacks are sweet and all, but I feel like I've been overlooking Rhinos for too long.

But razorbacks can just ignore the lascannons and zorf tanks with lascannons. Although that incentivizes not moving with the razorback.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

67 points is another Scout squad. 3 more free points is a Combi-Plasma on them or you can just do the Heavy Bolter for cheap access to the Helfire Round.

I'm not seeing any downside. The squad doesn't need protection as it's going to die.

Since you're deployed even when the opponent goes first, it could die before it does anything. In which case you've potentially traded 200+ actually dangerous points for some Scouts. You don't have to use Pods, but their purpose is clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

Amusingly, Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters trade pretty well against basic Guardsmen, point for point. I also like that, unlike the Razorback, they can move and still shoot at BS3+. Razorbacks are sweet and all, but I feel like I've been overlooking Rhinos for too long.

Weren't you one of the people around here saying something about Marines being durable in cover? Or did that just not apply here for some reason? Deploy in cover and worst case scenario you're probably using Meat Shields. No reason to care.

Either way I don't use Grav Cannon Devastators as that's several points to make any use of them. You'd need two Grav Cannons minimum and then 70-90 points for a Rhino. That's already 200 minimum for a unit that isn't likely getting its spent points back by a good amount. Camping with Lascannons (Heavy Bolter and ML optional for the Strategems) is just more efficient for Devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

67 points is another Scout squad. 3 more free points is a Combi-Plasma on them or you can just do the Heavy Bolter for cheap access to the Helfire Round.

I'm not seeing any downside. The squad doesn't need protection as it's going to die.

Since you're deployed even when the opponent goes first, it could die before it does anything. In which case you've potentially traded 200+ actually dangerous points for some Scouts. You don't have to use Pods, but their purpose is clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

Amusingly, Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters trade pretty well against basic Guardsmen, point for point. I also like that, unlike the Razorback, they can move and still shoot at BS3+. Razorbacks are sweet and all, but I feel like I've been overlooking Rhinos for too long.

Why does it matter the Rhino is firing at full BS? A moving TL Assault Cannon is still worth more.

Martel732 wrote:
But razorbacks can just ignore the lascannons and zorf tanks with lascannons. Although that incentivizes not moving with the razorback.

Agreed, but Rhinos seem to have better synergy when acting alongside other troops. Keep em moving, blocking enemy LOS and potential assaults, ramming them into their own assaults to stop units form firing or use them to tank overwatch.

Ram a Rhino into a Predator and what's the Predator going to do? Aggressive Rhinos can be really annoying. I find when I use Razorbacks I'm too protective of them because I'm trying to maximize firepower, whereas I'm suicidal with Rhinos and it can really screw with some opponents. Even flying units can't charge after falling back, so you can stall some assaults by throwing a cheap tank or two at them.

Depending on my opponent, I won't need to hide a dev squad in the rhino and can use it thusly. This list is heavily anti-shooting alpha strike. I've gone second my last 5 games vs IG and its just murder.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

67 points is another Scout squad. 3 more free points is a Combi-Plasma on them or you can just do the Heavy Bolter for cheap access to the Helfire Round.

I'm not seeing any downside. The squad doesn't need protection as it's going to die.

Since you're deployed even when the opponent goes first, it could die before it does anything. In which case you've potentially traded 200+ actually dangerous points for some Scouts. You don't have to use Pods, but their purpose is clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

Amusingly, Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters trade pretty well against basic Guardsmen, point for point. I also like that, unlike the Razorback, they can move and still shoot at BS3+. Razorbacks are sweet and all, but I feel like I've been overlooking Rhinos for too long.

Weren't you one of the people around here saying something about Marines being durable in cover? Or did that just not apply here for some reason? Deploy in cover and worst case scenario you're probably using Meat Shields. No reason to care.

Marines are more durable in cover, but not immune. A Drop Pod makes them immune. It also lets you react to your opponents potential first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Depending on my opponent, I won't need to hide a dev squad in the rhino and can use it thusly. This list is heavily anti-shooting alpha strike. I've gone second my last 5 games vs IG and its just murder.

I've only rarely put Devs in Rhinos. Pods for Devs most of the time for sure.

I've got the twin lascannon devs in a rhino. I've got too much deepstrike to switch it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

67 points is another Scout squad. 3 more free points is a Combi-Plasma on them or you can just do the Heavy Bolter for cheap access to the Helfire Round.

I'm not seeing any downside. The squad doesn't need protection as it's going to die.

Since you're deployed even when the opponent goes first, it could die before it does anything. In which case you've potentially traded 200+ actually dangerous points for some Scouts. You don't have to use Pods, but their purpose is clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

Amusingly, Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters trade pretty well against basic Guardsmen, point for point. I also like that, unlike the Razorback, they can move and still shoot at BS3+. Razorbacks are sweet and all, but I feel like I've been overlooking Rhinos for too long.

Weren't you one of the people around here saying something about Marines being durable in cover? Or did that just not apply here for some reason? Deploy in cover and worst case scenario you're probably using Meat Shields. No reason to care.

Marines are more durable in cover, but not immune. A Drop Pod makes them immune. It also lets you react to your opponents potential first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Depending on my opponent, I won't need to hide a dev squad in the rhino and can use it thusly. This list is heavily anti-shooting alpha strike. I've gone second my last 5 games vs IG and its just murder.

I've only rarely put Devs in Rhinos. Pods for Devs most of the time for sure.

It's durable enough though that it is more firepower going to them than the rest of the list right? Wasn't that a justification before too?

I react to the opponent's potential first turn via deployment. Pods are way too expensive as a reaction in the same way Terminators are too expensive for counter assault: you can pretend to stick something in any role you want but that doesn't make it cost efficient whatsoever.

Martel732 wrote:
It's an experimental list. I'm using ONE drop pod to protect and deploy 200+ pts of devastators. Yes, I could switch out for a rhino. But I thought the freedom of deployment and the synergy with grav cannons might be worth it. I'll find out.

I'm going to predict that again marines will not perform like 13 ppm models.

For the record, BA have a bunch of stratagems worth using.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
"SoB are better than TAC's b.c they get 3 SB's per 5 and are 2pts cheaper"

... but they die something like 25% faster and dont have anywhere near the long range abilities or options.

"SOB can have a full unit of SB's or HB's"

SM can have a full unit of HB's too, that can live longer, has a codex for -1 to hit, or can re-roll shots. They get characters for re-roll 1's to wounds, and finally have Scouts that can block easily. SoB has to use those SB bodies to do that.

Sisters don't even have a codex yet, I'm just saying.

And i was saying that currently b.c SM has a codex and how much survivable they are and the weapon options are mostly better. They are 20pts more per squad, but they are that much more survivable from any S3/S4/S6/S7 meaning they will over all do more damage, given Traits this makes it even more so give a 105pt Dev HB squad -1 to hit out of 12" and see how much longer it lasts vs a Ret quad for 85pts.

Bolters vs Ret: 34 to kill squad
Bolters vs Dev: 45 to kill a squad
Bolters -1 vs Dev: 60 to kill a squad

So for 20pts more with a codex its a 45% difference. Is that 45% in points? Heck no, its only a 21% difference

Everytime I play sisters they keep coming back to life. That seems infinitely more durable to me.

WTF are you talking about? The average SOB player will have 2 maybe 3 AOF (4+ very rare and not needed, its actually a waste of points). And using the "res 1 model" other than Celestine is a couple waste, b.c you can just Shoot or melee twice.

Whats better, Shoot a unit 2x for res 1 body?

Celestine will res a Gemini once a turn with her ability, not AOF, but can use an AOF to res the 2nd one if needed, or res Celestine her self, are you talking about this?

B.c resing 1 or 2; 12pt models a turn is not good

It's been a problem the last couple time I've played against them. 5+ AOF is not common?

[delete]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's durable enough though that it is more firepower going to them than the rest of the list right? Wasn't that a justification before too?

I have no idea what you seem to be trying to pin on me. Find a quote if its that important to you. Point stands, Devs not on the table are Devs that cant be shot, assaulted, etc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I react to the opponent's potential first turn via deployment. Pods are way too expensive as a reaction in the same way Terminators are too expensive for counter assault: you can pretend to stick something in any role you want but that doesn't make it cost efficient whatsoever.

"Victory needs no explanation." Guaranteed modular and reactive alpha strike wins me games, so you'll have a hard time convincing me they're bad.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's durable enough though that it is more firepower going to them than the rest of the list right? Wasn't that a justification before too?

I have no idea what you seem to be trying to pin on me. Find a quote if its that important to you. Point stands, Devs not on the table are Devs that cant be shot, assaulted, etc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I react to the opponent's potential first turn via deployment. Pods are way too expensive as a reaction in the same way Terminators are too expensive for counter assault: you can pretend to stick something in any role you want but that doesn't make it cost efficient whatsoever.

"Victory needs no explanation." Guaranteed modular and reactive alpha strike wins me games, so you'll have a hard time convincing me they're bad.

You can claim wins all you want, but tournament statistics tell you you're wrong and based off what we know of your area I can tell that a win isn't that great.

And sure I'm still experimenting with lists (I even made a Artillery list with mortal wound spam on T1 as an experiment), but I'm not gonna pretend that some of the choices I made were even close to being good (the Damocles Rhino being a good example).

I'm not sure tournament statistics show big wins for your style of list either, so I could probably make a mirrored claim. Or just claim that ITC has limited relevance to the majority of the player base at that. The holy "proof" of tournament statistics has its limits.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Ram a Rhino into a Predator and what's the Predator going to do? Aggressive Rhinos can be really annoying. I find when I use Razorbacks I'm too protective of them because I'm trying to maximize firepower, whereas I'm suicidal with Rhinos and it can really screw with some opponents. Even flying units can't charge after falling back, so you can stall some assaults by throwing a cheap tank or two at them.

I totally agree.

it all depends on what your arming the razorback with. I find my LC backs are played kinda conservatively w squad inside as light support for the tank, but HB/AC I run up the board and kinda throw it in the face and say "deal with this" and assault out of it. rhinos are kinda the same as "expendable armour".

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure tournament statistics show big wins for your style of list either, so I could probably make a mirrored claim. Or just claim that ITC has limited relevance to the majority of the player base at that. The holy "proof" of tournament statistics has its limits.

My style of lists for 8th definitely have not shown up I know, as they're basically all experiments and theories from extensive Mathhammer, observation, and tournament trends and counters, and so on. However the trends can be followed pretty easily for this edition (so yes I do get annoyed with people who don't understand something showing up once in a blue moon isn't proof) and I've made several correct calls in 6th and 7th, have I not?

Martel732 wrote:
It's been a problem the last couple time I've played against them. 5+ AOF is not common?

There is no such thing…

I've made casual lists that have hit 5+ acts of faith. But part of that was luck (I still had to roll a 4+ for most of them), and my capacity was at around 7.

But that's moot because: 1. I can only bring back one sister per squad, assuming it's still around. 2. I'm better off doing anything else with that AoF. 3. and most important: I DON'T GET CHAPTER TRAITS OR STRATAGEMS.

Martel732 wrote:
It's been a problem the last couple time I've played against them. 5+ AOF is not common?

No and its either 2+ for the army wide one, Celestine has one and then you only get more if you spend 40pts on a character that lets you use one of a 4+

B.c it cost 40pts and is only a 4+ (if it was a 5+ it would be really bad) take 2 to give you 1 AoF a turn on average for 80pts. For 80pts you can instead have a full unit with 5 weapons, 5 Doms with 5 SB's is 60pts, 5 Ret with 4 HB's is 85pts.

So why take 2 Imagifiers to get 1 AOF per turn on average. So for 80pts you can res 1 body a turn. Or just start with 7 extra bodies with weapons. Its 1 more body than average and you start out with more shots.


If it wasnt for the Detachment system and for the fact that i can have 18 units of Doms and 6 units of Rets within 3 detachments, there is no need for Imagifiers unless you are limited on space.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:A) Move all bolter weapons an AP lower for marines. Standard becomes AP -1, intercessor one becomes -2, heavy bolter -2, etc. This will also help their vehicles out. But it won't break currently good units like assault cannon razorbacks.

B) Make flamer/other former template weapons more reliable. Instead of d6 shots, let them be 3+d3, or an amount based on the size of the attacking unit.

C) Increase the power of pretty much all Chapter traits except Blood Angels and Death Guard to help infantry.

D) Give Bolter+Chainsword option for Tacs and CSM and their elite variants

E) Give Jump Pack troops the ability to lock enemies in close combat, or perhaps follow them if they fall back (can be based on leadership check.)

F) Award extra CP for detachments of basic MeQs

All that wishlisting aside, I doubt they'll touch this. Which means this is the edition of Xenos and Soup!

A.) No, your talking AP-3 Inferno Bolters, not to mention AP -2 heavy bolters would be some of the best shooting in the game.

B.) Agreed i have said before they should be 2d3 rather then 1d6.

C.) That really depends on the army.

D.) No, they should simply come with a Bolter and CS stock and have the option of replacing one weapon with some sort of special weapon.

E.) Can't there are too many armies that would just become irrelevant overnight.

F.) I have said this before they need to give CP based on the points spent not slots filled. If I bring 3 units of Rubrics and the minimum HQ options I get 6 CP for 550 points, Guard players can get 10 CP for the same points.

lolman1c wrote:I may be a race traitor here seen as I play Orks but I gotta admit...

Orks are T4, S4... ect... for 6pts but marines are nearly double for same T and S. It's really up to opinion on if 3+ save and 3+ BS is worth double. I think it is as you're double durable but I can see arguments.

But Guardsmen.... for 1 S, BS and T less you're 3 times as cheap as a marine! And yet not 3 times as vulnerable with a 5+ save. You're half as effective for a third of the price.

The thing is the 3+ save can become a 2+ in cover with a single reroll it takes 20 Guardsman with 1RF2RF to kill 1 Marine at 13-24". That same marine unit will kill 2.3 guardsman per turn (about 9 points worth) not great.

Orks on the other hand don't fare so well same setup of guardsman will kill 4.5 orks with a painboy buffing them. To top it off Orks dont realyy have a ranged option wort mentioning.

"The thing is the 3+ save can become a 2+ in cover with a single reroll it takes 20 Guardsman with 1RF2RF to kill 1 Marine at 13-24". That same marine unit will kill 2.3 guardsman per turn (about 11 points worth). "

So if marines are in cover and burn a reroll, they are still falling behind? How glorious.

Martel732 wrote:
"The thing is the 3+ save can become a 2+ in cover with a single reroll it takes 20 Guardsman with 1RF2RF to kill 1 Marine at 13-24". That same marine unit will kill 2.3 guardsman per turn (about 11 points worth). "

So if marines are in cover and burn a reroll, they are still falling behind? How glorious.

Marines are in cover and burning a reroll, while you're doing 2 squads of Guard(with no upgrades--and knowing you, you have the math wrong anyways since 20 Guardsmen equals 18 Lasguns not 20) and an officer placing an Order(the only Order those two squads can receive) OR a Stratagem to make it a Combined Squad in order for this to work.

Martel732 wrote:"The thing is the 3+ save can become a 2+ in cover with a single reroll it takes 20 Guardsman with 1RF2RF to kill 1 Marine at 13-24". That same marine unit will kill 2.3 guardsman per turn (about 11 points worth). "

So if marines are in cover and burn a reroll, they are still falling behind? How glorious.

When you shoot 80 points worth of models that are mildly buffed at a unit and kill 13 points worth? You burn a reroll and you lose 0 points most likely. Your some how falling behind?

Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"The thing is the 3+ save can become a 2+ in cover with a single reroll it takes 20 Guardsman with 1RF2RF to kill 1 Marine at 13-24". That same marine unit will kill 2.3 guardsman per turn (about 11 points worth). "

So if marines are in cover and burn a reroll, they are still falling behind? How glorious.

Marines are in cover and burning a reroll, while you're doing 2 squads of Guard(with no upgrades--and knowing you, you have the math wrong anyways since 20 Guardsmen equals 18 Lasguns not 20) and an officer placing an Order(the only Order those two squads can receive) OR a Stratagem to make it a Combined Squad in order for this to work.

20 Guardsman firing 36 (1RF2RF) Lasgun shots at 13-24"

36×.5×.33×.165= .9801 wounds. If you apply a reroll you would end up taking 0 wounds more then likely. This puts you 9 points ahead, which will only grow since you will probably get first turn and after the second turn of shooting they will likley be down to 16 guardsman and only be doing about .75 wounds per turn. You can literally spend 1 CP and end up ahead in the long run.

Yeah spend CP's on saving basic troops that make sence, especially when your spending minimum 250 points for 3 cp's atleast be realistic if your going to argue maths

"When you shoot 80 points worth of models that are mildly buffed at a unit and kill 13 points worth? You burn a reroll and you lose 0 points most likely. Your some how falling behind?
"

If the marines remove 11 points and the guardsmen remove 13, then yes, the marines are falling behind. If they have to spend a CP to make it 11-0 , they are STILL falling behind. The killer number in this is only removing 11 pts of enemy. Marines can't afford that.

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah spend CP's on saving basic troops that make sence, especially when your spending minimum 250 points for 3 cp's atleast be realistic if your going to argue maths

Not "CPs" a CP to have your squad negate the damage of almost 100 points woth of shooting and put them ahead for the rest of the game more then likley.

Oooh.. 100 pts. The IG player shrugs and then fires his triple basilisk triple manticore.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah spend CP's on saving basic troops that make sence, especially when your spending minimum 250 points for 3 cp's atleast be realistic if your going to argue maths

Not "CPs" a CP to have your squad negate the damage of almost 100 points woth of shooting and put them ahead for the rest of the game more then likley.

What ever you are smoking you need to cut back on. Spending CP's like that, how many CP's do you think a pure marine list has? Not to mention it means you can't use it to save a far more important target like a tank or dread that actually does some damage to the opfor if it doesn't get alpha'd off the table. People don't alpha tacs because they are ignorable.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"The thing is the 3+ save can become a 2+ in cover with a single reroll it takes 20 Guardsman with 1RF2RF to kill 1 Marine at 13-24". That same marine unit will kill 2.3 guardsman per turn (about 11 points worth). "

So if marines are in cover and burn a reroll, they are still falling behind? How glorious.

Marines are in cover and burning a reroll, while you're doing 2 squads of Guard(with no upgrades--and knowing you, you have the math wrong anyways since 20 Guardsmen equals 18 Lasguns not 20) and an officer placing an Order(the only Order those two squads can receive) OR a Stratagem to make it a Combined Squad in order for this to work.

20 Guardsman firing 36 (1RF2RF) Lasgun shots at 13-24"

36×.5×.33×.165= .9801 wounds. If you apply a reroll you would end up taking 0 wounds more then likely. This puts you 9 points ahead, which will only grow since you will probably get first turn and after the second turn of shooting they will likley be down to 16 guardsman and only be doing about .75 wounds per turn. You can literally spend 1 CP and end up ahead in the long run.

The point you seem to have missed is this:
Without seeing his math, and knowing his propensity for being wrong/biased when it comes to Guard stuff in general, 20 Guardsmen firing Lasguns requires at least 3 Infantry Squads OR Conscript Squads(which are BS5+ rather than BS4+ and only accept Orders on a 4+) OR some weird setup of an Infantry Squad, Command Squads, and/or HWTs.

Isn't it once again though just showing that the guardsmen themselves are underpriced-as established MONTHS ago?