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We could even go farther with this wombo-combo, throw in a Triarch Stalker as well and a cryptek, which will allow them to re-roll 1s to hit, give them a +1 to RP, and a 5++ to keep them alive to keep the phalanx moving.
The Stalker's a maybe, but the the Sautekh Telsa spam Battalion would be:
Overlord (maybe Imotekh)
Lord
Cryptek
3x10 Tesla Immortals
768pts
The Stalker would be so much better with the Sautekh keyword as it's one of the few units that can benefit from moving and shooting heavy weapons. It could also then trigger the stratagem and give +1 to hit and reroll 1's to everything.
How will you MWBD without an Overlord?
You're going to need more HQ's to make a legal list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 13:24:27
Necron soup (salad?) is looking like an interesting idea.
• A Nihilakh Spearhead of Doomsday Arks + Canoptek Cloak Cryptek to sit back and shoot.
• A Nephrekh Outrider of Destroyers + D.Lord who teleport in.
• A Novokh Outrider of Wraiths + CCB to go chopping.
• A Mephrit Outrider of Tomb Blades + OL with Veil to get in fast.
• A Sautekh Air Wing of 3 Doom Scythes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 13:36:12
KingTeXxx wrote: So a Cryptek and the Orb of eternity means RP on 3+?
Yeah but any points invested in improving reanimation rolls = more points wasted when an opponent who knows what they are doing wipes whole units.
Necron soup (salad?) is looking like an interesting idea. • A Nihilakh Spearhead of Doomsday Arks + Canoptek Cloak Cryptek to sit back and shoot. • A Nephrekh Outrider of Destroyers + D.Lord who teleport in. • A Novokh Outrider of Wraiths + CCB to go chopping. • A Mephrit Outrider of Tomb Blades + OL with Veil to get in fast. ... nothing for Sautekh that I can think of off the top of my head. (maybe Silver Tide?)
The problem with the soup is that all the HQs buffs only benefit their Dynasty. In your example you have kept everything separate but it still makes the HQs even more points inefficient.
Your cryptek isn't using his technomancer ability. The CCB isn't using MWBD and nor is your OL.
The buffs are the only thing the HQs are any good at. A soup list would have to use the non-Dynasty named characters to get anywhere.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 13:32:58
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Has anyone come up with a HQ choice that is good for anything other than buffing nearby units?
CCB and Dlord can be made pretty durable but they aren't going to kill much.
A command barge with the void reaper relic and the honorable combatant warlord trait gets 3+d3 attacks against characters that hit and wound on 2s, have an AP of -5, and do 3 damage. Against characters without invulnerable saves and elite infantry the barge can do a pile of damage. While I'm less sure about this one, if you give it the lightning cloak and the thrall of the silent King warlord trait it does a mortal wound to all enemy units in 4 inches on a 4+, which is nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 13:45:31
Nihilak Detachment Sits back an rerolls 1 to hit and wound,Sautekh advances to the midfield and regenerates CPs. Wraith,Scarabs and DLord (Phylaktery Relic) go for harrasment .
skoffs wrote: Waitwaitwait,
Exactly how many things can we potentially have in the opponent's backfield turn one?
• Deceiver + D3 units
• Veil HQ + 1 unit
• 1 strategem deep strike unit
• X units of Deathmarks
• X units of Flayed Ones
• X dropping Monoliths
• X zooming flyers
• ?????
(though, I guess even with just those, if they had some DDA support from your side that'd be a pretty formidable threat to deal with)
Ghostwalk Mantle?
I was going to ask actually, is there some new cheese we can accomplish with Nemesor Zahndrekh? I like Vargard Obyron more now he has an extra attack and is useful in his own right beyond the teleport now he confers rerolls of 1 to wound.
I'm thinking, give Zahndrekh the Veil of Darkness, teleport him and one unit within 9" of the enemy, then use the Ghostwalk Mantle to teleport Vargard Obyron and a nasty melee unit within 6" of NZ and 1" away from enemy models, practically guaranteeing a successful charge.
If MWBD is applied correctly, you could have Obyron and 10 Lychguard hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s to wound. If you use an extra CP, you could make the Lychguard Strength 8, at which point they'd be flat out killing Intercessors on 2s and rerolling wound rolls of 1.
The question for me is, do I take a shooty unit or a slashy unit with NZ and his veil of darkness? 20 Warriors? 10 Immortals? 6 Destroyers? Or just more Lychguard to get more melee in?
Special Characters can't have Relics.
Ah, whaaat?
I thought I read the rules for relics as that only some named characters can't take relics. Oh well. I suppose you could still technically do it with a Lord or Cryptek though that feels like a convoluted way of catapulting your Warlord, a Lord and 10 Lychguard into the enemy deployment.
You still could do some shenans with the receiver if you wanted zahndrekh closer and bodyguard units.
Then don't use them lol. I wasn't trying to convince you or anyone else into needing these guys, I was simply demonstrating that they were not the utter garbage that was being hurled at them.
You seem reasonable, I am not gona go in circles with you. If you don't like them then don't take them. What was annoying me was claiming they were trash without evidence and then when I put forth a way in which you can play them and succeed it was shot down because it required too much synergy. That annoys me because it IS a double standard when every other post is referencing some wambo combo between several units, traits and or relics.
Nihilak Detachment Sits back an rerolls 1 to hit and wound,Sautekh advances to the midfield and regenerates CPs. Wraith,Scarabs and DLord (Phylaktery Relic) go for harrasment .
Looks solid, but I'd replace the 3 H destroyers for another DDA ant turn the Lord into something else. Or put the 3 H destroyers in one unit, so they can use the Destroyer strategem.
Why give Sautekh Tesla? It's already an assault weapon so they won't benefit from the code.
There's a Sautekh strat which boosts hit rolls for other Sautekh units (boosting Tesla multihits).
Yeah this. The Sautekh code is almost useless. It's all about the stratagem and warlord trait. The characters are a nice bonus.
After messing about with lists I quite like the balance between Dynasties. Mephrit isn't the stand out best as I initially thought and they all have things going for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 14:12:44
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.
I already posted this concern twice but it's been glossed over. Tournament results later will confirm this glaring hole, because it looks like there's no answer. All of the faceroll deep strike bombs, super infiltrates (AL/RG/ADMech), or even outdated builds like Plasma Scions will do a huge number on Necrons. They simply don't have the tools that everyone in the tournament circuit consider 'must haves'. Even generic bubblewrap isn't generally considered sufficient -- You need Marine Scouts or Nurglings to really be safe. Unless you're Eldar. Because Eldar are just that special.
That said, I'd like people to discuss alternatives, but I guess we aren't really at that point. We're still at the "bickering about whether a trash unit is really trash or just bad" point.
You have two options really. You either take scarabs or a 20 man warrior unit and daisy chain that unit accross your battle line. If you want them further up field your back to two options again. Best option is deceiver, next best which isn't saying much is hoping for first turn and Nephrek DS them up field. Second option relies on first turn, and does nothing for special deployment so I'd say it sucks. That really leaves the army with requiring deceiver IF you want to screen out the opponent. I'd say scarabs work best point for point since they are only 1 point more then a warrior but have 3 wounds and a 40mm base, meaning for the cost you can get an incredibly long chain during deployment, 20 warriors is better but also costs a lot more and is harder to hide from sight.
Something I am curious about is whether we need many stratagems in general. Besides maybe 3 to deepstrike destroyers turn 1 and then another 1 or two for the elimination volley in your first turns I am betting you can design a list that doesn't need many more. All the best units use volume of dice meaning the command reroll is not a massive deal.
A list I have been considering is all in on Vaults but you can fit a super heavy detachment in with three vaults, plus a battallion with 3 crypteks with clokes for around 2000. (Hilariously this is 9 command points btw) The vaults really could care less about being screened and the crypteks can heal them d3 a turn. Use the strat that allows most injured one to act normal. Also use the strat that can alter your powers ensuring you get 3x sky of falling stars etc. Take nephrek to teleport the 3 immortal units in late game.
Why give Sautekh Tesla? It's already an assault weapon so they won't benefit from the code.
There's a Sautekh strat which boosts hit rolls for other Sautekh units (boosting Tesla multihits).
Yeah this. The Sautekh code is almost useless. It's all about the stratagem and warlord trait. The characters are a nice bonus.
After messing about with lists I quite like the balance between Dynasties. Mephrit isn't the stand out best as I initially thought and they all have things going for them.
Immotek is amazing though. He is our Abbadon. He may cost 200 but he does the job of 2 overlords, while regening CP's as well as providing one and then his storm ability is very strong. Sure it's one use, but with a CP reroll it only fails once in 36 games and averages ~4 mortal wounds. Thats pretty solid when you knock out a quad heavy bolter or unit of reapers first turn. Splash damage is just extra gravy. I think he is our most efficient HQ by a mile.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 14:18:26
Something I am curious about is whether we need many stratagems in general. Besides maybe 3 to deepstrike destroyers turn 1 and then another 1 or two for the elimination volley in your first turns I am betting you can design a list that doesn't need many more. All the best units use volume of dice meaning the command reroll is not a massive deal.
The destroyer Strat and the extra MWBD done strat acoount for 2 CP per turn. If you have any decent sized wraith or Scarab units you're going to want 1CP for advance + charge. Then there's the Dynasty specific Strats, most of which are pretty good and some cost 2CP.
Immotek is amazing though. He is our Abbadon. He may cost 200 but he does the job of 2 overlords, while regening CP's as well as providing one and then his storm ability is very strong. Sure it's one use, but with a CP reroll it only fails once in 36 games and averages ~4 mortal wounds. Thats pretty solid when you knock out a quad heavy bolter or unit of reapers first turn. Splash damage is just extra gravy. I think he is our most efficient HQ by a mile.
I'm not convinced. He is more expensive than 2 overlords who don't add and extra CP directly but do clear more of the HQ tax required to unlock them. His MW ability is alright I suppose, I don't find it too exciting. His WL trait is available to anyone. Probably the best hes ever been and I would consider taking him but I don't see anything amazing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 14:27:01
Doctoralex wrote: The biggest problem I have with Imothekh is that you are forced to foot-slog your Immortals.
Weren't you doing that anyway?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
ThePie wrote: How is the triarch stalker compared to the doomsday ark, heat ray vs twin heavy gauss cannons? I do like the model, though it will be even better after a small conversion to remove the pilot.
Was thinking of picking up a necron start collecting, and going from there.
I just started playing Necrons with some friends, so I'm sure someone else can provide more insight.
The heat ray really only offers an advantage over the gauss cannons if you're going to be hanging out 12" away from your targets, and a significant advantage at 8". For me, that was too close - lack of a <Dynasty> means that you're always going to suffer your heavy weapons penalty when you move, and you can't fly or ignore infantry, so if you get stuck in CC your effectiveness plummets. Also, no invulnerable save means that you can lose wounds pretty quickly when things start shooting you.
I prefer using the gauss cannons, sitting in the back, and targeting big units. Stalker gives +1 to hit for all Necron units targeting the same unit in the shooting phase, so it's great for taking chunks out of enemy vehicles and helping the rest of your army focus them down. But really, DDA is much more effective in the anti-tank role, and isn't a slouch if infantry threaten it. If I had to choose one to bring, I'd pack the DDA.
That being said, the start collecting box is a good deal, and the Stalker is fun to use against other small armies. Buy an extra box of Warriors and enjoy how nice RP is in small-point games.
Something I am curious about is whether we need many stratagems in general. Besides maybe 3 to deepstrike destroyers turn 1 and then another 1 or two for the elimination volley in your first turns I am betting you can design a list that doesn't need many more. All the best units use volume of dice meaning the command reroll is not a massive deal.
The destroyer Strat and the extra MWBD done strat acoount for 2 CP per turn. If you have any decent sized wraith or Scarab units you're going to want 1CP for advance + charge. Then there's the Dynasty specific Strats, most of which are pretty good and some cost 2CP.
Sorry, I get that. My point was whether or not a list that doesn't lean on CP's can be made. I am not suggesting dropping them entirely, but for example burning a CP to double MWBD is going to require a battalion or two just for the CP's at which point isn't it cheaper to simply take Immotek or another overlord? Things like that, some of the CP's are nice but can become traps when your making an army. Personally I would rather take immotek i nthe above scenario since he provides a secondary detachments CP alone as well as already saving you a further CP every turn if you were planning on using that strat you mentioned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doctoralex wrote: The biggest problem I have with Imothekh is that you are forced to foot-slog your Immortals.
Not with the deceiver. Who is rapidly looking like an auto take if you don't want to forfeit 75% of the board during deployment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 14:30:46
If going first is a concern for a list, consider Maynarkh representing a Dynasty of your choice (except Sautekh). Toholk gives you a re-roll to seize the initiative, which if I'm remembering correctly, can no longer be done with the command reroll, and army-sourced initiative rerolls are very rare. Put him in a Patrol if you're strapped for points or let him replace a generic Cryptek you were considering. He can repair vehicles like a Cloaktek but still has a Chronometron, as well.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.
I already posted this concern twice but it's been glossed over. Tournament results later will confirm this glaring hole, because it looks like there's no answer. All of the faceroll deep strike bombs, super infiltrates (AL/RG/ADMech), or even outdated builds like Plasma Scions will do a huge number on Necrons. They simply don't have the tools that everyone in the tournament circuit consider 'must haves'. Even generic bubblewrap isn't generally considered sufficient -- You need Marine Scouts or Nurglings to really be safe. Unless you're Eldar. Because Eldar are just that special.
That said, I'd like people to discuss alternatives, but I guess we aren't really at that point. We're still at the "bickering about whether a trash unit is really trash or just bad" point.
You have two options really. You either take scarabs or a 20 man warrior unit and daisy chain that unit accross your battle line. If you want them further up field your back to two options again. Best option is deceiver, next best which isn't saying much is hoping for first turn and Nephrek DS them up field. Second option relies on first turn, and does nothing for special deployment so I'd say it sucks. That really leaves the army with requiring deceiver IF you want to screen out the opponent. I'd say scarabs work best point for point since they are only 1 point more then a warrior but have 3 wounds and a 40mm base, meaning for the cost you can get an incredibly long chain during deployment, 20 warriors is better but also costs a lot more and is harder to hide from sight.
Something I am curious about is whether we need many stratagems in general. Besides maybe 3 to deepstrike destroyers turn 1 and then another 1 or two for the elimination volley in your first turns I am betting you can design a list that doesn't need many more. All the best units use volume of dice meaning the command reroll is not a massive deal.
A list I have been considering is all in on Vaults but you can fit a super heavy detachment in with three vaults, plus a battallion with 3 crypteks with clokes for around 2000. (Hilariously this is 9 command points btw) The vaults really could care less about being screened and the crypteks can heal them d3 a turn. Use the strat that allows most injured one to act normal. Also use the strat that can alter your powers ensuring you get 3x sky of falling stars etc. Take nephrek to teleport the 3 immortal units in late game.
So while the hype of the new book is exciting, this conversation is important. To be competitive, you need to be able to look at the meta lists and figure out how to face them. While 6 Run + Charge Nephrekh Wraiths is exciting, and Deep Striking Destroyers is cool, actually using them in a game can be less straightforward.
For blocking Alpha Strikes, I agree that Warriors or MSU Scarabs are likely the best option. 20 Warriors may not be as math efficient as 10 Immortals in some ways, but they do have more models for purposes of controlling space, which in and of itself is a very powerful tool. You can also consider MSU Tomb Blades - a few squads of 3 can be spread out ~18" apart to block Deep Strikers while being not efficient to Alpha against. Taking a unit of 3 out is easy for Sanguinary Guard/Death Company/AL Cultists/whatever, but you've only killed 1 unit of the rest. Will have to list build.
On the other hand, blocking Alphas is only useful if you have units to protect. If we consider DS Destroyers, and the rest of our list is redundant Troops or hardy combat Wraiths, there's not much the opponent wants to Alpha off the board before we come in, meaning that type of list doesn't necessarily need super strong bubble wrap.
The meta issue I'm currently seeing is our ability to clear hordes while also contesting the objectives they're going for. If there are midfield objectives that 40 Cultists/Zombies are sitting on, or 30 Bloodletters charge into your backfield objectives, you need to be able to wrest that Marker back from them, which is not an easy task. Tesla helps, but you can't rely on 3 units all surviving the alpha to support one another.
Again, as I've said, Flayed Ones are quite good at the task - while they might not be great as an Alpha Strike unit, they may be our best option as a Beta Strike unit to counter aggressive Charges or Infiltrates. In fact, a unit of them inside the NScythe/Monolith that stays in your zone can be a huge deterrent for the opponent, since even if they kill it you can pop out the Flayed Ones for a nasty counterattack.
Playtesting required.
Immotek is amazing though. He is our Abbadon. He may cost 200 but he does the job of 2 overlords, while regening CP's as well as providing one and then his storm ability is very strong. Sure it's one use, but with a CP reroll it only fails once in 36 games and averages ~4 mortal wounds. Thats pretty solid when you knock out a quad heavy bolter or unit of reapers first turn. Splash damage is just extra gravy. I think he is our most efficient HQ by a mile.
I agree. Now that he's essentially two Overlords welded together with the best Warlord Trait and a free CP, you'll never be wrong to take him in my mind. He's not required, but his efficiency is pretty astounding.
Therion wrote: It’s sad but you can be right that 3 vaults, 3x5 immortals, 2 crypteks and 2x scarabs might be the most competitive list.
Yea I was excited at first because the list is so bizarre, but then soured on how bland it will get just dumping tesla and morrtal wounds every turn. But honestly I have no idea how I would beat that list with even my guard since the math on shooting down a Vault is incredible. It essentially wastes all your opponents anti infantry.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The other big problem with list building is alpha strike defense. How do you stop Blood Angels charging out of deep strike? Or anything that arrives in rapid fire range? The closest thing we have to a disposable screen is Scarabs but they're not great at it. The only way to "infiltrate" is with the Deceiver but you're not going to be paying his points just to put disposable screening units forward.
I already posted this concern twice but it's been glossed over. Tournament results later will confirm this glaring hole, because it looks like there's no answer. All of the faceroll deep strike bombs, super infiltrates (AL/RG/ADMech), or even outdated builds like Plasma Scions will do a huge number on Necrons. They simply don't have the tools that everyone in the tournament circuit consider 'must haves'. Even generic bubblewrap isn't generally considered sufficient -- You need Marine Scouts or Nurglings to really be safe. Unless you're Eldar. Because Eldar are just that special.
That said, I'd like people to discuss alternatives, but I guess we aren't really at that point. We're still at the "bickering about whether a trash unit is really trash or just bad" point.
I think Warriors are the best answer we have to this sort of problem. It's a good example of why pure spreadsheet calculations aren't completely reliable. You need to consider things other than an individual unit's survivability and damage output when putting a list together.
Our deepstrike protection/screening comes either from Scarabs or Warriors. I take a mix of the two. Scarabs have more wounds per point to absorb Smites but Warriors are very useful for Deepstrike screening because I generally want to keep them as a screen for my other shooting units, so they'll move up with them whereas Scarabs are often pushed further forward earlier in order to tie up key enemy units - something they're a bit better at now the have Fly. Neither are anywhere near as good as Cultists or Poxwalkers, or even Scouts, but few things are. It's a definite weakness of our army, exacerbated by a need to bunch up more than others due to our short-range overlapping buffs.
Therion wrote: It’s sad but you can be right that 3 vaults, 3x5 immortals, 2 crypteks and 2x scarabs might be the most competitive list.
Yea I was excited at first because the list is so bizarre, but then soured on how bland it will get just dumping tesla and morrtal wounds every turn. But honestly I have no idea how I would beat that list with even my guard since the math on shooting down a Vault is incredible. It essentially wastes all your opponents anti infantry.
I’ve run triple superheavies as Astra (sword x2 and banehammer) and it’s a very competitive army. More so than the Vaults. Because as Astra you get 3 Hurricane Shield Captains in a Supreme Command, the tanks in Super Det, and the cheapo Battalion (and some mortars) with cp refunds, making the army very very versatile.
The tanks also have that weird ruling they can overwatch even if already engaged in melee and with defensive gunners many armies can’t really charge a Shadowsword at all. I’ve played tournament games vs Nids who deep strike Trygons, Stealers and Tyrants to their own zone because the overwatch would be too brutal.
Good post above me about spreadsheet damage potential vs real world matchups. The Necron design style (footslogging elite) isn’t really a succesful model in 8th edition. The only footslogger MEQ list I’ve seen have real success is the Raven Guard 18 Aggressors bomb that double shots you for 400 times at S4 with hit and wound rerolls turn 1a, making it a brutal stomper, but that’s because of the super infiltrate. They can table most of the Necron stuff too 1a. Necrons can’t really even counter this because the Scouts make a landing zone up middle in the face of the Necrons. And if the Necrons do kill some models, the Ancient guarantees the Marines keep trading more points efficiently.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/03/13 15:03:14
Something else I considered and I know it may seem like heresy. But with our range bands and sledge hammer units with mobility issues maybe we don't need to worry about the midfield as much as it seems. Similar concept to taking 3 vaults, just let them have the center and scrub it clean of them. Our army is pretty unique in that it can absorb an alpha strike fairly well.
Also this might sound nuts, but why not use wraiths to screen? They are fast enough, utilizing the strat anyway to get them in on turn 1 if your going first, but more importantly if going second they can absorb a hit and cannot be tied up now. It won't work for every list but if you wanted them already it helps a bit.
Therion wrote: It’s sad but you can be right that 3 vaults, 3x5 immortals, 2 crypteks and 2x scarabs might be the most competitive list.
Yea I was excited at first because the list is so bizarre, but then soured on how bland it will get just dumping tesla and morrtal wounds every turn. But honestly I have no idea how I would beat that list with even my guard since the math on shooting down a Vault is incredible. It essentially wastes all your opponents anti infantry.
I’ve run triple superheavies as Astra (sword x2 and banehammer) and it’s a very competitive army. More so than the Vaults. Because as Astra you get 3 Hurricane Shield Captains in a Supreme Command, the tanks in Super Det, and the cheapo Battalion (and some mortars) with cp refunds, making the army very very versatile.
The tanks also have that weird ruling they can overwatch even if already engaged in melee and with defensive gunners many armies can’t really charge a Shadowsword at all. I’ve played tournament games vs Nids who deep strike Trygons, Stealers and Tyrants to their own zone because the overwatch would be too brutal.
Yea shadowswords are gross. They would be a solid opponent for the vault list but honestly that list itself has some hard counters. Eldar being the number one offender, since guard super heavies suck against opponents they can't hit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 14:58:25
