Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"Well unless he has changed playing style is golden standard is "can tac squad with missile launcher and flamer do the job?" That's how it generally went with arguments. "But tacticals with missile launchers suck vs it. It's broken!"

Wrong poster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters have no bullet catchers. It's a legit number. They give up points REALLY fast.

Only if they're being focused down, which is something important about them, a Hellblaster CANNOT be the scariest thing on the map. if iut's your hardest hitting weapon then yeah you screwed. IMHO if you're using it as your primary heavy guns you've messed up your list and hellblasters are best used to crush a few ranks of elite enemy infantry, termies etc.

I'll focus them down anyway, if they are the easiest tooth to remove from the list. At 33 ppm, they are such juicy targets, too.

Nice point on the previous page about the Knights basically giving up other targets once they pop the strat to get a 4++. Good to see that target priority is still recognized.

I also want to point out that after I took off the for the night a point struck me: Marines (be it the loyalists or chaos), have a hard counter to invul saves: Null Zone and Death Hex. Yes, it requires positioning to get right, but it can't be ignored that we have something available to shut down invul saves allowing us to tear invul based units (Harlequins, Daemons, IK) a new one.

If bikers where better, tho they still might be best for this, Librarian on bike could easily get into position to Null Zone, tho its from Index, its still a viablo option until index datasheet are not allowed (tho that might not be for another year or 4 years, who knows, currently it will work).

Death Hex is a legit counter to invulns. Ahriman casts it on a 7, or 5 with a strat, at 18" range, on a 12" disc.

Null Zone, on the other hand ... Needs an 8 to cast, is very hard to make easier, and requires a suicide run from your invulnless librarian to get within 6", which must happen before you even know whether you're going to get that 8.

The two are night and day.

 grouchoben wrote:
Death Hex is a legit counter to invulns. Ahriman casts it on a 7, or 5 with a strat, at 18" range, on a 12" disc.

Null Zone, on the other hand ... Needs an 8 to cast, is very hard to make easier, and requires a suicide run from your invulnless librarian to get within 6", which must happen before you even know whether you're going to get that 8.

The two are night and day.

Sadly this is true, another reason SM are a bit lack luster, they are a bit too Jack of all Trades.

 grouchoben wrote:
Death Hex is a legit counter to invulns. Ahriman casts it on a 7, or 5 with a strat, at 18" range, on a 12" disc.

Null Zone, on the other hand ... Needs an 8 to cast, is very hard to make easier, and requires a suicide run from your invulnless librarian to get within 6", which must happen before you even know whether you're going to get that 8.

The two are night and day.

I agree that vanilla Marines need a lot more help to make it work, I just wanted to say there are things built into the book that seem to be designed to help counter the problem at least a little.

Can we get back to wishlisting?

I'll stand by my earlier wish for more weapon options for Hellblasters and being able to mix a couple of Hellblasters into Intercessor squads. I'll add doing the same in reverse, letting Hellblasters have a little padding.

Adding Aggressors to Intercessor squads might be a bit much, but I see no reason not to have a Captain-style Gravis suit upgrade option for Intercessor and Hellblaster squad sergeants.

I'd really like to see the restrictions on weapon types loosened for Inceptors and Aggressors, maybe I only want to upgrade one guy to the flamer/plasma variants because it's too expensive for the whole squad. Hellblasters and Intercessors included, even if they don't get any new weapon types.

As much as I think the Repentor is overpriced compared to a venerable or even a normal dreadnaught, I'd still like to see a variant with more anti-tank firepower. The "all the dakka" approach GW seems to be taking with Primaris might yield positive results there.

I'll admit to being in a weird spot on Primaris though. Everything I want for them moves closer to just supplanting basic marines, which I kinda don't want to happen.

I'm starting to like the mixed methods of the Deathwatch book more and more. Makes me want to build a Red Hunters army using the codex.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Legion style army building of the Primaris, but I feel we're significantly lacking tools to handle a wide array of threats effectively. We need some more balance in our book to make it work beyond where it struggles now.

Gravis armor gives an extra wound. Two primaris units get fixed immediately.

Martel732 wrote:
Gravis armor gives an extra wound. Two primaris units get fixed immediately.

I wouldn't say "immediately", but it'd make them seem a lot tankier at least on paper.

I think I'd like a new formation. Perhaps something that fills the scout roll for them, be it some sort of not primaris chapter thralls, or proto primaris troops.

Also some more Redeptor options please. Perhaps something close combat facing, or in that direction.

Let me do a rundown of stuff I want and just get my massive wishlist out in one go:

Chapter Tactics
These need tweaking. To start with anything that isn't a servitor should have CT bonuses. Marines shouldn't be the only army to not benefit from their special rules just because they're in a metal box.

Raven Guard: -1 to hit helps the army a lot but honestly it should be in the core mechanics, not the chapter tactic. A bonus to cover would work better for balance (get rid of the other army's ones too).

Imperial Fists: Swap Bolter Drill and the Fortification wounding bonus as strategems.

Iron Hands: Improve their bionics save by 1.

Ultramarines: +1 Ld could be instead only losing one model to casualties (to represent them sticking to the doctrine over all else).

Black Templars: Bring back the Vows and let the player pick on at the start of the game to tailor their bonus to their list. That and keep the reroll charges standard.

Salamanders: I'd argue they should get a range bonus on flamer and melta weapons instead of the reroll thing. +6" to flamers would make them scary as feck.

White Scars: Make their advance move rule work for all units. Allow them to make Bikes troops as well.

HQ:
SPECIAL. PRIMARIS. CHARACTERS. Minimum of ONE PER FOUNDING CHAPTER.

*ahem*

Moving on to the more generic stuff:
+Gravis Armour kit, with options for both a Captain and a Lieutenant with more options (say, the ability to trade the sword for another gauntlet, or the ability to swap bolters for flamers, ect).

+Inceptor pattern HQs. If we're not getting jump packs, we should at least see our HQs get a Jet pack option.

+Primaris Emperor's Champion would be a nice touch too for the Templars.

Troops
+Replace all statlines of bolt pistols on Primaris with Heavy Bolt Pistols. Why would we use peashooters when we have magnums in the armory? I know this applies to every unit, but the Intercessors feel to be punished with pointlessly weaker pistols the most. Stalker Pattern Bolt Rifles need to be Heavy 2 instead of Heavy 1.

Elites
+Give Reivers an AP value for their Bolt Carbines and Combat Knives. This would give the unit a much needed kick and make them relevant in any army. A sniper variant would be really cool if they fix stalker pattern bolt rifles too.

+Flamer Aggressors need a boost. Maybe 12" flamers instead of 8". That or make the weapons 0 points so we have a reason to run them.

Fast Attack
+Most people say bikes, but I'd argue that we get some kind of Land Speeder style support vehicle. Kind of like a flying light tank with light armament instead.

Heavy Support
+MORE OPTIONS. Give us the ability to take a unit of Onslaught Gatling Cannons (maybe on a Gravis frame), Lascannons (or at least Las-talons), and maybe even bring Volkite back. There is a lot of potential for cool stuff we haven't seen in the rest of the Imperium here, and I want to see it tapped.

Dedicated Transports
+A grav rhino (or at least Grav-Razorback) equiv would be very welcome.

Flyers
We need something here. My vote is for something cool like the Corvis and not a flying brick.

Lords of War
Other Primarchs would be nice, but honestly I want to see a Baneblade sized hover tank, or some other madness. Giant robots belong to the Titanicus and Knight Households so let's go tanks instead.

Here's my list of wants for a Primaris Codex.

First, like ClockworkZion said the Chapter Tactics need to be reworked. I care less about specifics but vehicles need to get them and they need to be rebalanced a bit.

Again, like ClockworkZion said the HQ choices need to be able to take all of the major suit options. If they add jump packs or bikes, HQ's need to be able to keep up. Also more options in general, right now the wargear is a bit lacking.

There are a few major unit types that are missing.

Fast melee. This could be jump infantry, bikes, jetbikes or extra wargear for Inceptors.

Anti-Tank. Extra weapon options for Aggressors would be nice here, as would a hellblaster style unit armed with lascannons or missiles or a sub 150 point tank.

Chapter specific units. BA Inceptors with power weapons, BT troops with bolter and chainsword, Deathwing Primaris, etc.

Cheap transports.

Reasonable fliers.

They also need a few general upgrades. Reivers need something extra, pistols need to be better all around (not necessarily better stats, although that would be nice, but the rules just don't promote them that much) and a bunch of stuff could use price drops.

If the Reiver sergeant could take wargear that would improve them plenty, giving him a power maul would be a nice punch.

Knock 100 pts off the base price of the repulsor, and its fine.

Martel732 wrote:
Knock 100 pts off the base price of the repulsor, and its fine.

Yeah I'd say it's priced like someone has might of heroes on it. T9 is super good.

I think I'd just be happy with the kill team points, intercessors at 15 and classic marines at 12 I believe. I'm half excited to see if they put point drops in the space Wolves codex for vanilla esque units. If Grey hunters are 13 or less then it's probably safe to say marines will drop to 12

12 is not really cheap enough, but I'll take what I can get. 15 for intercessors seems about right to me.

Or the repulsor is priced to hang out with Bobby G. Both are erroneous.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Let me do a rundown of stuff I want and just get my massive wishlist out in one go:

<Snip>
Lords of War
Other Primarchs would be nice, but honestly I want to see a Baneblade sized hover tank, or some other madness. Giant robots belong to the Titanicus and Knight Households so let's go tanks instead.

Like the Astraeus in plastic?

Reemule wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Let me do a rundown of stuff I want and just get my massive wishlist out in one go:

<Snip>
Lords of War
Other Primarchs would be nice, but honestly I want to see a Baneblade sized hover tank, or some other madness. Giant robots belong to the Titanicus and Knight Households so let's go tanks instead.

Like the Astraeus in plastic?

I was thinking something like the Mastadon actually.

That or a new superheavy flier in plastic for the Primaris could be good too.

Personally, I wish any -1 to Hit ability would move to a Stratagem that costs CPs and away from a free built-in ability (in any faction), but that’s probably just me.

 Stormonu wrote:
Personally, I wish any -1 to Hit ability would move to a Stratagem that costs CPs and away from a free built-in ability (in any faction), but that’s probably just me.

That'd be good. I'd rather it became like the Nids "You have cover if you don't move" thing with a bonus for models already in cover (say an additional +1) base, which would leave room for the strat.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Personally, I wish any -1 to Hit ability would move to a Stratagem that costs CPs and away from a free built-in ability (in any faction), but that’s probably just me.

That'd be good. I'd rather it became like the Nids "You have cover if you don't move" thing with a bonus for models already in cover (say an additional +1) base, which would leave room for the strat.

I can understand the reasoning here, but I don't agree with it.

The big thing with the -1 to hits are they need to apply only to infantry and Dreadnought sized units(no tanks or flyers) or they cannot be allowed to stack with Infiltrate stratagems or other negative to hit modifiers.

I know that a big issue with these modifiers is that they become a Big Deal, driving down selection of army traits...but if that's the case, we need to maybe start seeing more allowing for mitigation other than just crap like Dark Reapers.

Do we know whether standard marines can be upgraded to Primaris yet? I thought it was a yes, but I'm not so sure. If yes, then simply reissuing Characters in Primaris form could be good.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Knock 100 pts off the base price of the repulsor, and its fine.

Yeah I'd say it's priced like someone has might of heroes on it. T9 is super good.

I think I'd just be happy with the kill team points, intercessors at 15 and classic marines at 12 I believe. I'm half excited to see if they put point drops in the space Wolves codex for vanilla esque units. If Grey hunters are 13 or less then it's probably safe to say marines will drop to 12

15 point intercessors would be pretty solid, but would essentially delete normal marines from the game. For +3 points you gain a better gun, +1 wound and +1 attack. I'd take that every single day. Then gimme my 17 point deathwatch intercessors with SIA and we have an actually respectable unit of the field. That, to me, would feel like a marine should on the board. Also heavy bolt pistols for Primaris pls.

Fine with me. At least then GW would be being honest about the situation.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Knock 100 pts off the base price of the repulsor, and its fine.

Yeah I'd say it's priced like someone has might of heroes on it. T9 is super good.

I think I'd just be happy with the kill team points, intercessors at 15 and classic marines at 12 I believe. I'm half excited to see if they put point drops in the space Wolves codex for vanilla esque units. If Grey hunters are 13 or less then it's probably safe to say marines will drop to 12

15 point intercessors would be pretty solid, but would essentially delete normal marines from the game. For +3 points you gain a better gun, +1 wound and +1 attack. I'd take that every single day. Then gimme my 17 point deathwatch intercessors with SIA and we have an actually respectable unit of the field. That, to me, would feel like a marine should on the board. Also heavy bolt pistols for Primaris pls.

Hopefully CA 2018 brings these points changes I'm not sure heavy boltpistols will happen though.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Do we know whether standard marines can be upgraded to Primaris yet? I thought it was a yes, but I'm not so sure. If yes, then simply reissuing Characters in Primaris form could be good.

From what I gathered from Dark Imperium, some of the Primaris have rather extensive knowledge of Heresy-era Ultramar which would suggest a high education level (not that likely in 30k to be honest) or that they were already Marines when they made the jump to Primaris.

Outside of the lore, studio devs have apparently mentioned that they want to give the Primaris treatment to some of the named characters.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Do we know whether standard marines can be upgraded to Primaris yet? I thought it was a yes, but I'm not so sure. If yes, then simply reissuing Characters in Primaris form could be good.

From what I gathered from Dark Imperium, some of the Primaris have rather extensive knowledge of Heresy-era Ultramar which would suggest a high education level (not that likely in 30k to be honest) or that they were already Marines when they made the jump to Primaris.

Outside of the lore, studio devs have apparently mentioned that they want to give the Primaris treatment to some of the named characters.

I could see the devs giving Primaris Treatment to some, and using the scale change as a chance to kill others off, depending on popularity. for example a special character whose just not clicked with the player base, or worse yet is actively unpopular (Kaldor Dragio comes to mind) could be replaced. Meanwhile someone like say.. Ragnar Blackmane who is popular and despirately in need of a new model, might end up primarized.

Draigo is only unpopular in specific circle jerks.

Captain Tycho may end up gone because how do you Primarisize someone who is a frothing looney like that?

Vulkan will stick around since that's a position, not a person. Khan could go either way depending on if Marines get Primaris bikes or not. Lysander doesn't really fit the Primaris style at the moment so that'll be up in the air (unless they stick him in Gravis armour with his Thunderhammer and Stormshield). Cato will stick around because they seem to like him, which Calgar might vanish in the end.

Basically it can swing all over the place depending how they decide to advance the story and how they choose to do it.