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phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
2018/10/30 18:51:48
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
Just because something was in a FW book does not cheapen or lessen it's value, if anything those are a better source than the mess that is Black Libraries HH series at this point.
I could see Oll Persson deciding that after all the blood shed during the rise of the Emperor, the Crusades and then the Heresy might cause him to snap when he realizes the Emperor is just going to start all over again.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Just because something was in a FW book does not cheapen or lessen it's value, if anything those are a better source than the mess that is Black Libraries HH series at this point.
I could see Oll Persson deciding that after all the blood shed during the rise of the Emperor, the Crusades and then the Heresy might cause him to snap when he realizes the Emperor is just going to start all over again.
Trust me, Chaos is worse than the Emperor.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/30 20:24:54
2018/10/30 19:07:52
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
HoundsofDemos wrote: Just because something was in a FW book does not cheapen or lessen it's value, if anything those are a better source than the mess that is Black Libraries HH series at this point.
I could see Oll Persson deciding that after all the blood shed during the rise of the Emperor, the Crusades and then the Heresy might cause him to snap when he realizes the Emperor is just going to start all over again.
Trust me, Chaos is worse than the Emperor.
Onto the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.
I think someone else has raised this point, but a lot of your responses are just vapid one liners or posting block quotes with no additional context and not actually responding to what people are posting. No were in my post did I imply that the Emperor is worse than Chaos. He is however a violent, uncompromising dictator. It's not a a stretch that a person would take to chance to kill him after seeing how many people he killed and how bad of shape he left the galaxy in.
2018/10/30 19:10:34
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
I know, but we were getting off topic. And I'll say this one last time, all of those examples of the Emperor destroying planets that I saw came from the Forgeworld books, and I read about 20 Horus Heresy books and he did not seem so bad from my reading.
So enough of that. My talk with ADB and the link is what I wanted to bring up again.
My link more or less proves the Emperor is probably not from the DAOT.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/30 19:13:44
And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/30 20:01:59
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2018/10/31 06:55:26
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
Just because chaos is worse than the emperor doesn’t mean that a person might not be justly horrified at the idea of the Emperor being the immortal figurehead of humanity for the foreseeable future, especially after the brutal and sometimes genocidal conquests of the Great Crusade.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
2018/10/31 07:25:13
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
Just because chaos is worse than the emperor doesn’t mean that a person might not be justly horrified at the idea of the Emperor being the immortal figurehead of humanity for the foreseeable future, especially after the brutal and sometimes genocidal conquests of the Great Crusade.
Not to the point of being such a moron that you'd kill the Emperor and remove the only thing serving as effective protection against the forces of Chaos.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
He didn’t set up camps, like that makes them completely different, as you say that’s just one thing. They are in many ways the same/similar in their conquering.
Many times you’ve said ‘conquering’ isn’t evil. But inherently it is. Whether you’re doing it for what you perceive is best for people or not.
You keep saying ‘but they are from Forge World books’ but they are still valid, I’m guessing it’s just because you’ve not read them?
And you’ve said you have read up to 20 books, but are trying to come off as the most knowledgeable of the lore, but that’s less than half the books, so just remember some people are more steeped in lore from these books and have been reading for many many more years etc..
I just think you’re not really reading the other posters arguments properly, and making picking out a couple of words/sentences to argue against, or quote something vaguely close to it as a reply.
I can see where you are coming from, but I think you’ve read one point of view and straight away took that as truth, irrelevant of what else there may be, so anything coming up after then must be untruth.
Just an alternate way to consider your posting.
Just for everyone else, from looking at all his threads it made me think of it;
Onething’s post layouts and repetition comes across very similar to someone I know with mild autism, which have repetition of points and sentences, and the overuse of certain phrases in a description (1st Edition Rogue Trader for example or the ‘ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT).
Now this is no slight or dig at Onething, and I’m not saying anything about him personally here, or that it is the case with him specifically, as people can type/talk that way whether they do or not (so don’t want to cause you offence Onething here, and I can remove this part of my post if you’d like - so let me know)
But.. everyone needs to be aware of the fact they don’t know who is on the other side of the screen as it were. Whether irrelevant in this topic or not (I’ve seen similar in many other posters from lots of topics and forums in general, I just notice people get their backs up quick a lot of the time, and wanted to mention it.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
2018/10/31 13:13:44
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
agurus1 wrote: Just because chaos is worse than the emperor doesn’t mean that a person might not be justly horrified at the idea of the Emperor being the immortal figurehead of humanity for the foreseeable future, especially after the brutal and sometimes genocidal conquests of the Great Crusade.
Not to the point of being such a moron that you'd kill the Emperor and remove the only thing serving as effective protection against the forces of Chaos.
There are some people who would rather live free, however briefly, than under unjust or tyrannical rule. Oll Perrson (in the context of this specific fan theory that might not even be true) might just feel that whatever time humanity has left might be better served being able to make decisions for itself.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
Its much closer billions, and only if you use the Forgeworld books, because that is where the examples of the Emperor destroying planets comes from, pretty much exclusively.
The Forgeworld books are also different from the HH books in a lot of what they do.
The Emperor should have done more to Angron than just give him a slap on the wrist for an atrocity, I'll give you that.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
Of course he didn't. You don't need concentration camps if you just kill all the aliens and everyone who doesn't accept your rule.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
The Emperor did chastise Angron, but to be fair, he only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity.
But off topic.
This thread was created to be about what the Imperium knows about Old Earth. I have learned they know very few things about Old Earth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
What are you saying? ADB outright said we can safely say the Emperor is NOT from the DAOT.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 15:50:16
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
Wasn't the reason why though because it would have cost too much time and manpower to bring the Laer to compliance. Later on in Fulgrim after his encounter with Eldrad, Fulgrim then goes on to destroy a number of Maiden Worlds, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Each destruction bought about by an expedition force is done in the Emperors name.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
No, but another writer might say so. ADB has changed stories so he can put his own take on things, other writers might decide that the Emperor is as a result of DAOT tech. ADB's word is not the be all and end all of Heresy writing irrespective of how good ADB is as a writer.
Which is where you seem to take a lot of threads I have noticed and I have generally tried to stay away. You seem to post a snippet of information without much explanation as to what you want you want US to do with it if anything. If you are tying to show something rather than discuss it perhaps you should start an article blog on Dakka. If you do want a discussion and for the thread to not go off topic so much I would highly recommend that you have an idea what you would like to discuss rather than let the reader guess and ask us for our opinion on the point you are trying to make.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
Wasn't the reason why though because it would have cost too much time and manpower to bring the Laer to compliance. Later on in Fulgrim after his encounter with Eldrad, Fulgrim then goes on to destroy a number of Maiden Worlds, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Each destruction bought about by an expedition force is done in the Emperors name.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
No, but another writer might say so. ADB has changed stories so he can put his own take on things, other writers might decide that the Emperor is as a result of DAOT tech. ADB's word is not the be all and end all of Heresy writing irrespective of how good ADB is as a writer.
Which is where you seem to take a lot of threads I have noticed and I have generally tried to stay away. You seem to post a snippet of information without much explanation as to what you want you want US to do with it if anything. If you are tying to show something rather than discuss it perhaps you should start an article blog on Dakka. If you do want a discussion and for the thread to not go off topic so much I would highly recommend that you have an idea what you would like to discuss rather than let the reader guess and ask us for our opinion on the point you are trying to make.
To be fair, a lot of my threads have people jumping to other topics and talking with somone other than me for pages.
No, but another writer might say so. ADB has changed stories so he can put his own take on things, other writers might decide that the Emperor is as a result of DAOT tech. ADB's word is not the be all and end all of Heresy writing irrespective of how good ADB is as a writer.
And that will more than probably never happen. And there is a problem with that if it did come up. How do you explain Perpetuals Oll Persson and Damon Prytanis? Perpetual Oll Persson talked to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past. They would have to find a way to patch that if they did make the Emperor DAOT tech (and BL will more than probably never do that).
The point is that the Council never intended to destroy the Laer, and thought about making them a protectorate (and Fulgrim had a reason for destroying them other than being alien).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 16:15:13
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
Its much closer billions, and only if you use the Forgeworld books, because that is where the examples of the Emperor destroying planets comes from, pretty much exclusively.
The Forgeworld books are also different from the HH books in a lot of what they do.
The Emperor should have done more to Angron than just give him a slap on the wrist for an atrocity, I'll give you that.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
Of course he didn't. You don't need concentration camps if you just kill all the aliens and everyone who doesn't accept your rule.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
The Emperor did chastise Angron, but to be fair, he only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity.
But off topic.
This thread was created to be about what the Imperium knows about Old Earth. I have learned they know very few things about Old Earth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
What are you saying? ADB outright said we can safely say the Emperor is NOT from the DAOT.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
Its much closer billions, and only if you use the Forgeworld books, because that is where the examples of the Emperor destroying planets comes from, pretty much exclusively.
The Forgeworld books are also different from the HH books in a lot of what they do.
The Emperor should have done more to Angron than just give him a slap on the wrist for an atrocity, I'll give you that.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
Of course he didn't. You don't need concentration camps if you just kill all the aliens and everyone who doesn't accept your rule.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
The Emperor did chastise Angron, but to be fair, he only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity.
But off topic.
This thread was created to be about what the Imperium knows about Old Earth. I have learned they know very few things about Old Earth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
What are you saying? ADB outright said we can safely say the Emperor is NOT from the DAOT.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
I was talking to someone else.
It was much closer to billions.
I am not discounting the Forgeworld books. I am saying most of the examples come from there.
There were hardly any friendly aliens during the Crusade. Horus in Horus Rising mused that the Interex is the first time he has come across friendly aliens, and other Legions like the Thousand Sons muse about this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 16:58:06
2018/10/31 17:29:31
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
It's pretty clear by anyone who can read through the subtext that it was pretty much assumed that xenos = unfriendly. You cherry pick the what two times out of several thousand encounters the IOM even attempted to work out something other than genocide and both ended up with the aliens dead.
2018/10/31 17:50:14
Subject: Re:What the Imperium knows about Old Earth
HoundsofDemos wrote: It's pretty clear by anyone who can read through the subtext that it was pretty much assumed that xenos = unfriendly. You cherry pick the what two times out of several thousand encounters the IOM even attempted to work out something other than genocide and both ended up with the aliens dead.
And you have plenty of xenos that almost destroyed the Imperium. The Forgeworld books (which has been quoted from) say Rangdan could have destroyed the Imperium.
And the Imperium never intended to destroy the Laer before Fulgrim butted in (who has a reason for destroying them, and it was not because they were alien)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: It's pretty clear by anyone who can read through the subtext that it was pretty much assumed that xenos = unfriendly. You cherry pick the what two times out of several thousand encounters the IOM even attempted to work out something other than genocide and both ended up with the aliens dead.
And the Emperor never sought to rule over humanity. Malcador said that the Emperor never wanted to rule, but that he thought humanity would never be independent of him.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 18:00:48
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
I was talking to someone else.
Yet you made the reply to me. See how that's confusing?
It was much closer to billions.
No it wasn't. Trillions is the accepted figure for the Horus Heresy. If you think the 200-year crusade that involved genocide on a system-wide scale only killed billions you're deluded.
I am not discounting the Forgeworld books. I am saying most of the examples come from there.
If you're not discounting them then you accept them as sources of information? So why does it matter where the info comes from?
There were hardly any friendly aliens during the Crusade. Horus in Horus Rising mused that the Interex is the first time he has come across friendly aliens, and other Legions like the Thousand Sons muse about this.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The implications of the Imperial Truth are pretty clear and the reality of the Imperium's contact with aliens is demonstrated more than once in the HH novels. Aliens are seen as things to be exterminated, no matter how enlightened or peaceful they may be. Your attempts to justify such genocide are exactly the sort of excuses tyrants and dictators make when confronted with a group they'd rather not deal with - declare them hostile/evil/dangerous and kill them on sight. The existence of genuinely hostile aliens in the galaxy doesn't justify the extermination of all aliens.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
I was talking to someone else.
Yet you made the reply to me. See how that's confusing?
It was much closer to billions.
No it wasn't. Trillions is the accepted figure for the Horus Heresy. If you think the 200-year crusade that involved genocide on a system-wide scale only killed billions you're deluded.
I am not discounting the Forgeworld books. I am saying most of the examples come from there.
If you're not discounting them then you accept them as sources of information? So why does it matter where the info comes from?
There were hardly any friendly aliens during the Crusade. Horus in Horus Rising mused that the Interex is the first time he has come across friendly aliens, and other Legions like the Thousand Sons muse about this.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The implications of the Imperial Truth are pretty clear and the reality of the Imperium's contact with aliens is demonstrated more than once in the HH novels. Aliens are seen as things to be exterminated, no matter how enlightened or peaceful they may be. Your attempts to justify such genocide are exactly the sort of excuses tyrants and dictators make when confronted with a group they'd rather not deal with - declare them hostile/evil/dangerous and kill them on sight. The existence of genuinely hostile aliens in the galaxy doesn't justify the extermination of all aliens.
The vast majority of aliens in 40k ARE hostile. I just quoted the Nephilim, who were a minor xenos species.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
How do you know trillions is the accepted figure? Do you have proof?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for your information, its an irrefutable fact the Emperor wants to save humanity. He wants humanity to psychically evolve and surpass the Pre-fall Eldar in its psychic potential. This has always been the case since the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 18:26:31
Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
Here's the part that you're unable or unwilling to wrap your head around: IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Genocide is genocide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 18:48:08
Sterling191 wrote: Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
Here's the part that you're unable or unwilling to wrap your head around: IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Genocide is genocide.
No matter that it is legit justified? Alright. It does not matter.
I know that it doesn't matter. The point is that the Imperium has its reasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote: Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
Here's the part that you're unable or unwilling to wrap your head around: IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Genocide is genocide.
And did you just ignore my link to the Nephilim? They were a minor xenos race. And the Forgeworld books say that the Rangdan came close to destroying the Imperium.
They were a crap load of aliens during the Crusade that were, irrefutably, without any doubt, hostile, and capable of destroying the Imperium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 18:53:49
Sterling191 wrote: Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
Almost like his threads are a microcosm of this...
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
I know that it doesn't matter. The point is that the Imperium has its reasons.
So did Hitler. And Stalin. And Mao. And Hirohito. And Caesar. And Jackson. And every other murderous donkey-cave who built their power with the barrel of a gun.
Stop being a fascist apologist for two seconds and you might understand why trying to justify the, even fictional, systematic extermination of a species for no other reason than it exists is an act of pure irredeemable evil.
I know that it doesn't matter. The point is that the Imperium has its reasons.
So did Hitler. And Stalin. And Mao. And Hirohito. And Caesar. And Jackson. And every other murderous donkey-cave who built their power with the barrel of a gun.
Stop being a fascist apologist for two seconds and you might understand why trying to justify the, even fictional, systematic extermination of a species for no other reason than it exists is an act of pure irredeemable evil.
I hope you are not implying there were no hostile aliens during the Crusade. There were plenty. Some came very close to destroying the Imperium.
And the Imperium has encountered dangerous aliens, not like Hitler, Stalin, and so on.
By the way, Hitler clearly believed in Aryan supremacy. Why would he not? Its a fact. Racism and genocide existed before him.
This is not Star Trek or real life. This is Warhammer 40k. The Imperium has justified reasons for being the way it is.
Did you know that many aliens betrayed humanity during the Age of Strife? There were even alien slavers in Sol system on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter.
What Caeser did was NOT genocide. That was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemy peoples of Rome. That's not genocide. That was ancient warfare.
