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Made in it
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity




Italy

I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


There's actually a good reason why burna boyz are D3 instead of D6.
You can take 15 burnaboyz in a squad. The random dice roll is applied to the squad.
If you roll a 6 for 15 boyz, that means you would get 90 auto hits. Which is just...insane.
45 autohits from a full squad a lot more palatable.


90 autohits with a a significant amount of lack and for a unit that is made by t-shirt saves guys. 15 burnaboyz are 180 points, IMHO fair for a glass cannon unit that has a 8'' range and also needs a 120 point BW.

They should definitely have D6 autohits for 12ppm, otherwise they'd be fine at 8-9 ppm like kommandos or stormboyz.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 13:24:05


Orks 9000
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




They could at the very least have given them reroll wound rolls against infantry
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





the_scotsman wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


...as opposed to the Snazzwagon which loses slightly less than half it's chaff clearing ability over 6"?


I actually did the math on that one... nine snazzwagon staying at 24 range are better at killing Castellan Knights than a stompa and more durable and cheaper. That's how bad the stompa is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?


You are probably missing the FAQ which clearly states that you can't roll a six when auto-hitting because you are not rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: Added the tournament winner and a credits section to the first post

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 14:08:42


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Blackie wrote:
I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?



Yeah, the clause that explicitly states auto-hit weapons don't get DDD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?


You are probably missing the FAQ which clearly states that you can't roll a six when auto-hitting because you are not rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: Added the tournament winner and a credits section to the first post


You don't even need a FAQ. Read the DDD entry in the codex carefully, especially the last line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 14:09:50


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




You're stretching preeeeetyy hard here. The Dakkajet costs 1.5 times as much...and kills over 3x as many geq. The str to ap conversion breaks the Dakkajet even against all t3 chaff and makes it better against any invulnerable or 6+sv chaff.

And if you damage it and degrade it's bs it becomes the same as a snazzwagon, and only deals roughly twice as much for 1.5x the cost.

Yeah. This thing has no role that isn't filled by Kbb or Dakkajet.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Which to me is a problem. Why take anything else to clear chaff if you can just take a KBB or a dakkajet? A KBB is the same price as a snazzwagon, and yet it performs better. There's no point in having that many options if some of them are useless.
Then again, it is still early. Maybe the KBB and dakkajet have some practical flaws on the table that the other options don't have. I still think the snazzwagon is meant to be more of a hit and run unit than a direct frontal assault unit, like the kbb.
If I had the time or money, I would totally get one of everything and experiment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 18:28:18


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Well every codex is bound to have some redundant units. They could easily just say that the burna bottles auto-hit if they want to give the BDSW some more punch. How hard is it to hit with molotovs anyways? I have no idea, but treat them like flamers and it's suddenly a lot more viable
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

PiñaColada wrote:
Well every codex is bound to have some redundant units. They could easily just say that the burna bottles auto-hit if they want to give the BDSW some more punch. How hard is it to hit with molotovs anyways? I have no idea, but treat them like flamers and it's suddenly a lot more viable


Well yeah, but that still doesn't mean its a good thing. Everything should have a use.
Throwing a molotov is harder than you think, actually. You still have to throw them, and if your hand-eye coordination is terrible it might not go exactly where you want.
They do ignore cover though, which is nice but also weird how it appears to be the only flame type weapon to do so.
Though that does give me a thought - has anyone ran the calculation of how effective the KBB would be against units that are in cover?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 18:40:56


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Well every codex is bound to have some redundant units. They could easily just say that the burna bottles auto-hit if they want to give the BDSW some more punch. How hard is it to hit with molotovs anyways? I have no idea, but treat them like flamers and it's suddenly a lot more viable


Well yeah, but that still doesn't mean its a good thing. Everything should have a use.
Throwing a molotov is harder than you think, actually. You still have to throw them, and if your hand-eye coordination is terrible it might not go exactly where you want.
They do ignore cover though, which is nice but also weird how it appears to be the only flame type weapon to do so.
Though that does give me a thought - has anyone ran the calculation of how effective the KBB would be against units that are in cover?

Jidmah did in the old thread, the KBB is still vastly more effective than the BDSW
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Well damn, there goes that idea.
Well, another thing to write to GW about I suppose. Maybe in the next chapter approved they'll make the BDSW and buggy cheaper. And give spannas their own points cost, because it is pretty silly how it is right now. The whole unit character upgrade system is fundamentally flawed, really.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





If the snazzwagon would provide the same amount of shooting per points as the KBB (quick napkin math came out to about 70 points) it would be true sidegrade since you could get three snazzwagons for the price of two KBB. While the KBB would still be better in raw power, the snazzwagons would have all the little utility advantages and actually be more durable per point spent.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

How are you getting 3 snazzwagons for the price of 2 KBB?
2 KBB are 200 points. At 70 points 3 snazzwagons would be 210 points. They would have to be 65 points to do that.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





Yeah, that's a ten point difference for getting one more buggy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

That sounds fair. Quantity is a quality of its own, so the saying goes.
Now, what to do with the buggy...I guess give it more utility? I don't think they were adventurous enough. They should have added squigs that grant cover, remove overwatch, apply debuffs, heal, etc.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




wolverhampton

What do we think of big trakks with super skorchas now? I used to load them up with tankbustas and make things do the burny dance and they were awesome, do they still have a competitive place or are there just better cheaper options now?

mean green fightin machine 
   
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It's a tough call. Prior to the codex, it was one of the few ways we could do damage in shooting consistently and reliably against the -1 to hit factions like Alaitoc and Alpha Legion. Now that those traits might be changed soon with the upcoming CA, and the fact that DDD! and Mek Gunz changes exist, its pricing certainly makes it less appealing. I'd say it still has its niche, as a transport-gunwagon hybrid. I'd say it's best in a Freeboota list to help proc off the kultur for other units, given that its almost guaranteed to kill off most screens or small objective holding units. That or maybe Blood Axes, to give it a chance to fire back at anything trying to tie it in close combat.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
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BAN wrote:
What do we think of big trakks with super skorchas now? I used to load them up with tankbustas and make things do the burny dance and they were awesome, do they still have a competitive place or are there just better cheaper options now?
suppa skorchas are still amazing however wait til chapter approved (point changes) before I compare them to cheaper transports like battle wagons.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




Honestly, looking at the Squigbuggy and Boomdakka I think they're both in the same tier for totally different reasons.

The boomdakka is a mediocre unit in the background - yellow tier solidly - if it wasn't DIRECTLY competing with units at about the same points range in the same role that are very simply proven to be superior.

The squigbuggy, I can see where it's role is supposed to be. It's an all-purpose anti-elite platform designed to be taking on the heavy infantry of any faction no matter what makes them "heavy" - high toughness, shoot them with poison squigs. High save, shoot them with biteys. 2-wound, shoot them with booms. That's a role that we don't have TONS of competition for in the ork dex, most of our heavier weapons quickly slot right into the Rokkit profile.

The squigbuggy is just abominably priced. At 90pts, I think it'd have a niche. Not a huge niche, but at least a more interesting one than "anti-chaff shooty unit with very mediocre fire output #125362"
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

Huh, that's an interesting though.
That would explain the low fire rates, as heavy elites tend not to be that numerous.
The 140pt price tag is a killer though.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




I'd rather have it slightly more expensive than 90 (but still way less than 140) and all of its random amount of shots maxed out. Getting 2d6 shots at BS4 and 1d6 at BS5 is just too unreliable. The KBB works because half its firepower is auto-hit and the other half is 6 powerful shots. Not some d6 or 2d3 nonsense
   
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Well, the mek speshel is 24" range, so at 36" range the KBB outdamages it

The big shoota is 36".

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the mek speshel is 24" range, so at 36" range the KBB outdamages it

The big shoota is 36".

Lol well ideally I'd like to know the difference at 36, 24 then as close as possible without being in melee.
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.

I ran my KBB as a count as BDSW in a game because I haven't bought a BDSW yet. It's not terrible, it really isn't. It's just a bit underwhelming, speaking from my very limited experience. Sure, it's more durable with the -1 to hit. My opponent ignored it for 2 turns but even with 3 turns of shooting (I went first) it didn't do enough. The models fantastic and it's not a liability in your force really but it's tough to see the upside over the KBB, and even that buggy isn't some god-tier unit.

Edit: I just really wish it was S6, that would help alot versus chaff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 23:11:27


 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






PiñaColada wrote:

I ran my KBB as a count as BDSW in a game because I haven't bought a BDSW yet. It's not terrible, it really isn't. It's just a bit underwhelming, speaking from my very limited experience. Sure, it's more durable with the -1 to hit. My opponent ignored it for 2 turns but even with 3 turns of shooting (I went first) it didn't do enough. The models fantastic and it's not a liability in your force really but it's tough to see the upside over the KBB, and even that buggy isn't some god-tier unit.

Don't worry, I'm really not expecting a God tier performance out of the unit lol.

The upside over the KBB is its greater flexibility at >8" to <25" range. I have had times in games where that'd be useful.

Like I said, I'll report back when I've run it in game. Experience is what educates me best.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Quick battle report for the holiday weekend,

1500 pts - scorched earth

Me - 5 HQ's (killa klaw brutal but kunnin) with some warbikers, 10 tankbustas/5 BC nobs in trucks, unit of smasha gunz, (a lot of Vehicles at my local) 40 grots and 10/30 boyz. Evil sunz w/2nd detachment as badmoons.

Him - -1 to hit outside of 12in Eldarz, 3 casters, 20 guardians, 5 dire avengers,3 transports with bright lances, warithguard passengers...15 in all I think, 10 d-syth/5 axes.

T1 - he goes first and shoots off my warbikerz, a kannon dies, truck almost dies, the rest is not in range. I drive up to his vehicle's he parked on the points with my warboss/wartrike(fisted) and pick em up, consolidated into some of the warithguard passengers. Kannons kill 4 guards not in transport (a 3++ inv. and he gets 3 2's and a 1)
VP Orks 4/Eldar 3

T2 - fearing the HQ's he put everything he got into em, But orks is never beaten helps me shoot up some nearby guardians before trike goes down, and my warboss was in combat after he was charged at 1 wound left also fights, Definitely one of our best choices for 2 CP to get the most out of our HQ's with fist of gork as a plus. the rest shoot into the 40 jumped boys, get them to 25 count or so. I make all my close charges and pick up most of the flesh/wraith-bone, he got a 4 wound transport with 1 HQ hidden in ruins left, hand shake...

Fun game anyway... and short for how long it took to set everything up, lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/25 00:16:01


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.


It's fine to use a substandard unit. Seriously, it's OK. I use Vets in my guard list all the time, and they do fine, but from a competitive tier list standpoint there is no reason veterans should not be "red, never use" - they just compete with better options.

The fact of the matter is, the dakkajet costs 1.5x what the bdsw is, and has identical defenses...except for 1.5x the wounds. it does 3x the damage when undegraded, 2.5x the damage when degraded. That is pretty simple, straightforward math. the strength to AP conversion is an advantage, or breaking even, against any target either unit likes to be shot at, because almost all light infantry is T3.

It does not make sense to change the rating of a unit on a competitive tier list because you want to buy the model and would feel bad if it were rated "red."
   
Made in us
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Nebraska, USA

there is a valid tactic of using the less optimal units in a list.

People have a bad habit of ignoring the subpar units, allowing them to perform above expectations. This is sorta the reason my killakanz own people locally, they all think "kanz suck i'd rather kill the 3 dreads or shoot at the wagon" and in the end those 6 kanz did an insane amount of damage...because they were ignored and nothing else really.

I imagine most people would, for the most part, ignore the BDSW the first couple turns in favor of killing that character-sniper SJD or the rokkit spammer MTSJ. Meanwhile the BDSW is just roaming freely killing things for longer than it feasibly should.

Generally when someone uses a lesser unit and it performs very well, this is why. Most of the time when i hear "Are you guys crazy i run X unit all the time and it owns!" its because its being ignored, not its amazing. Hell i ran 5x piranhas as tau in 6th/7th not because they were great but because they were JUST good enough for 200pts to royally piss people off and effectively waste their time removing them. Because if you ignored them, they'd still mulch your face, but if you didnt you often put more dakka into them than you'd like to admit using to remove them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/25 04:55:08


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

9000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
4000pts Admech/Knights 
   
Made in it
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity




Italy

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.


Nah, buggies aren't priority targets, they should be ignored for a couple of turns at least. Everytime I fielded my scrapjets, KBBs and dragsters all the enemy shooting was towards battlewagons, bonebreakas or the tankbustas/nobz trukks. Of course if you don't have target saturation the -1 to hit that BDSWs have can make the buggy more valuable. But in my experience KBB always work as a support for the more valuable hitters.

I agree that BDSWs are not trash tiers but since there's another buggy that does the same job for the same cost but is also more efficient there's no reason why in a competitive game an ork player choses BDSWs over KBBs.


Orks 9000
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






the_scotsman wrote:
The fact of the matter is, the dakkajet costs 1.5x what the bdsw is, and has identical defenses...except for 1.5x the wounds. it does 3x the damage when undegraded, 2.5x the damage when degraded. That is pretty simple, straightforward math. the strength to AP conversion is an advantage, or breaking even, against any target either unit likes to be shot at, because almost all light infantry is T3.

It does not make sense to change the rating of a unit on a competitive tier list because you want to buy the model and would feel bad if it were rated "red."

Some of the statements above worry me because they are wrong. The units have completely different profiles and shapes, therefore their defuses are not identical.

Your damage calculation on the Dakkajet is also bogus because it seems like you're assuming it's firing against T3 models only. You're also assuming it's firing against the same unit to get the 4+ BS.

I dont want it as a red unit because I don't believe it's a red tier unit. It's pretty simple. I disagree with your assessment. From the thread it doesn't look like I'm the only one either. I have already purchased the model, I got it day of release along with all other buggies except the Squig buggy. The reason I didn't get the Squig buggy was mostly for aesthetic reasons.

By the way it looks like the rating has changed as its now a yellow tier. The dakkajet and KBB are 2 tiers higher.

 Blackie wrote:


Nah, buggies aren't priority targets, they should be ignored for a couple of turns at least. Everytime I fielded my scrapjets, KBBs and dragsters all the enemy shooting was towards battlewagons, bonebreakas or the tankbustas/nobz trukks. Of course if you don't have target saturation the -1 to hit that BDSWs have can make the buggy more valuable. But in my experience KBB always work as a support for the more valuable hitters.

My lists are all about target saturation. I don't run Battlewagons/Bonebreakers and I always put my valuable Trukks out of LOS as best I can. The buggies are decent targets for enemy fire because they are easy kill points.

 Blackie wrote:
I agree that BDSWs are not trash tiers but since there's another buggy that does the same job for the same cost but is also more efficient there's no reason why in a competitive game an ork player choses BDSWs over KBBs.



I really don't think the KBB and BDSW have the same job. I am not firing a 6 shot Str 7-2 AP 2D weapon at a Guardsmen and other chaff. When did that become tactically sensible? Or do we consider Primaris chaff? Terminators are chaff? I'm firing the Rivet Cannon at Sentinels, Vypers and other light vehicles.

As I said earlier, let's see the maths at the different ranges I stated. There will be times you can't get within 8" of a screen, 24" is much more manageable.
   
 
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