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Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes




U.k

There are options that have made us convert or spend money on making and they are no longer there and are completely useless now, like Iron priests on TWC
.

Now I might be being obtuse here but you keep saying that things are completely useless as you said above. But here we have a useable and legal datasheet. Some players and tournaments might not like it but it’s useable. This is the misinformation you are spreading. As well as gamesworkshop doesn’t sell models it has no rules for. That is also not true. You can make a meganob and call it a warboss. It’s just a meganob really. There’s nothing specifically warboss about it. In fact it would be a tiny warboss.

And as I’m such I nice person I’ve looked on the gw site and on the interwebs and can’t find any statement saying the index units will be invalidated anytime soon.

So I may be obtuse but I am at least factually accurate. I accept some people won’t play using the index but that is hardly GWs fault.
[Thumb - 85D66CA7-467E-406B-9FC6-49C7C58595B7.jpeg]

   
Made in gb
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




Mm. I had a cursory look through the GW Webstore and [to my suprise] I couldn't actually find anything in any faction that doesn't have rules. Granted, it's a lot smaller than when I last looked, but everything up there does indeed appear to have its own data sheet for whatever it's worth.

[Disclaimer - I didn't go through every single unit with a fine tooth comb, just areasonable sample.]

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Andykp wrote:
There are options that have made us convert or spend money on making and they are no longer there and are completely useless now, like Iron priests on TWC
.

Now I might be being obtuse here but you keep saying that things are completely useless as you said above. But here we have a useable and legal datasheet. Some players and tournaments might not like it but it’s useable. This is the misinformation you are spreading. As well as gamesworkshop doesn’t sell models it has no rules for. That is also not true. You can make a meganob and call it a warboss. It’s just a meganob really. There’s nothing specifically warboss about it. In fact it would be a tiny warboss.

And as I’m such I nice person I’ve looked on the gw site and on the interwebs and can’t find any statement saying the index units will be invalidated anytime soon.

So I may be obtuse but I am at least factually accurate. I accept some people won’t play using the index but that is hardly GWs fault.


Yeah because they will be useless. They are going to go the way of the dodo and you saying they aren't is you being obtuse. They sell models that are no longer going to have rules I mean seriously, you can only justify your argument over semantics. You aren't factually accurate, the rules are not in the codex, what does that mean to you. To you it means 'they might keep the codex's forever' which is absurd to suggest or 'They'll make models for them in the future' which is just as absurd. From this point on, my argument is based on them not making models for these units or keeping the indexes, so stop being semantic over the comments I make and assume they are regarding that fact.

As for the mega nob, its not just a mega nob they have parts just like in the nob set that are designed to use for warbosses and GW have always worked with that understanding and you know it. GW have models/kitbashed warbosses and the like in their own codex army display pics and white dwarf etc. But regardless even if they don't they are still doing away with rules that we have bought kits to make for and in some cases bought multiple kits to make these models.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 21:22:00


 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

cmspano wrote:

Glaives/Blood Glaive - Wyches aren't supposed to be hard hitters. They're infantry killers and attrition fighters. They force infantry to stay in melee with them, hold them with a net, and clean them up while surviving with their 4++ save. I wouldn't expect a Succubus to have a thunder hammer.


So why do Glaives need a -1 to hit at all?

It literally just makes them terribad Power Fists.

Also, if Succubi are supposed to be infantry-killers, why do they have the fewest attacks of any of our HQs?


cmspano wrote:

Shardnet and Impailer for a Succubus is a decent character hunter. Hold them them with the net and a 3++ save and stick them with a D2 weapon. Not amazing but not bad.


A D2 weapon with S3 and AP-1. Most characters are going to punch the weakling Succubus to oblivion - 3++ or not - long before they fall to her worthless Impailer.


cmspano wrote:

Razorflails I think can be ok if you build a specific Succ for it. The WL trait that gets exploding hits, STR boosts, etc. It's definitely not a good general weapon for a Succ.


But if you're going that route, you might as well just give her the Agoniser artefact.

One thing that really makes me sad is that you can't have Hydra Gauntlets and a Pistol. I'd really love to have Hydra Gauntlets, the Warlord Trait that does Mortal Wounds on 6s to wound, and the relic pistol.


cmspano wrote:

I don't really miss the old codex options like soul trap.


Fine. But I do.

cmspano wrote:
They were kind of neat but I don't really care. I play DE for a really fast transport army with good firepower.


Here's the thing - you always had the option to not take those items. I now have no option to still take them.

You lose nothing by those wargear options remaining in the codex. I (along with anyone else who liked them) do lose when they're removed.


cmspano wrote:
The 2 wyches and 2 archons I take are, to me, a tax for a double battalion. They're hard to get into transports and are a little underwhelming. They have their uses but delivery can be a pain.


See, this is another point - I'd really like HQs that are actually worth taking on their own merits. I don't want DE HQ choices to keep being absolute garbage in every edition.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes




U.k

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
There are options that have made us convert or spend money on making and they are no longer there and are completely useless now, like Iron priests on TWC
.

Now I might be being obtuse here but you keep saying that things are completely useless as you said above. But here we have a useable and legal datasheet. Some players and tournaments might not like it but it’s useable. This is the misinformation you are spreading. As well as gamesworkshop doesn’t sell models it has no rules for. That is also not true. You can make a meganob and call it a warboss. It’s just a meganob really. There’s nothing specifically warboss about it. In fact it would be a tiny warboss.

And as I’m such I nice person I’ve looked on the gw site and on the interwebs and can’t find any statement saying the index units will be invalidated anytime soon.

So I may be obtuse but I am at least factually accurate. I accept some people won’t play using the index but that is hardly GWs fault.


Yeah because they will be useless. They are going to go the way of the dodo and you saying they aren't is you being obtuse. They sell models that are no longer going to have rules I mean seriously, you can only justify your argument over semantics. You aren't factually accurate, the rules are not in the codex, what does that mean to you. To you it means 'they might keep the codex's forever' which is absurd to suggest or 'They'll make models for them in the future' which is just as absurd. From this point on, my argument is based on them not making models for these units or keeping the indexes, so stop being semantic over the comments I make and assume they are regarding that fact.

As for the mega nob, its not just a mega nob they have parts just like in the nob set that are designed to use for warbosses and GW have always worked with that understanding and you know it. GW have models/kitbashed warbosses and the like in their own codex army display pics and white dwarf etc. But regardless even if they don't they are still doing away with rules that we have bought kits to make for and in some cases bought multiple kits to make these models.


You have claimed that GW sell models with no rules, untrue.
You claimed models with rules were useless. Untrue.
I never claimed that the indexes were here forever, you just said that they are “definitely” going based on suspicion alone.

As it happens I think at some point the indexes will become useless, probably if and when a new edition comes out. Until then they will keep saying to just use those rules in the index. Back to my original points, the ORK range is still as customisable and convertible as ever. It does seem that to okay with non codex models (index or converted/himebrew) then you are going to need a more casual group that is happy to play by non match play rules. I don’t really see how GW can do much more, they say clearly which rules are used in which games etc.

The new style of less options on kits is that. The new style. In the past we had metal models where you had to repeat the same models in a squad. Then the git the plastic kits that were monopose. Then the modular plastic kits, that were interchangeable but that created some ugly looking models, like marauders, now we move to one or two pose plastic kits that are prettier and more dynamic than the interchangeable kits. They still provide variety and poseabilty but less than before. It’s a trade off. And one that’s worth it. Compare the kairic acolytes to the marauders. I’m currently building a load more primaris marines, less interchangeable than other marines but with a bit of cutting and filling still easy to convert and kitbash.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Andykp wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
There are options that have made us convert or spend money on making and they are no longer there and are completely useless now, like Iron priests on TWC
.

Now I might be being obtuse here but you keep saying that things are completely useless as you said above. But here we have a useable and legal datasheet. Some players and tournaments might not like it but it’s useable. This is the misinformation you are spreading. As well as gamesworkshop doesn’t sell models it has no rules for. That is also not true. You can make a meganob and call it a warboss. It’s just a meganob really. There’s nothing specifically warboss about it. In fact it would be a tiny warboss.

And as I’m such I nice person I’ve looked on the gw site and on the interwebs and can’t find any statement saying the index units will be invalidated anytime soon.

So I may be obtuse but I am at least factually accurate. I accept some people won’t play using the index but that is hardly GWs fault.


Yeah because they will be useless. They are going to go the way of the dodo and you saying they aren't is you being obtuse. They sell models that are no longer going to have rules I mean seriously, you can only justify your argument over semantics. You aren't factually accurate, the rules are not in the codex, what does that mean to you. To you it means 'they might keep the codex's forever' which is absurd to suggest or 'They'll make models for them in the future' which is just as absurd. From this point on, my argument is based on them not making models for these units or keeping the indexes, so stop being semantic over the comments I make and assume they are regarding that fact.

As for the mega nob, its not just a mega nob they have parts just like in the nob set that are designed to use for warbosses and GW have always worked with that understanding and you know it. GW have models/kitbashed warbosses and the like in their own codex army display pics and white dwarf etc. But regardless even if they don't they are still doing away with rules that we have bought kits to make for and in some cases bought multiple kits to make these models.


You have claimed that GW sell models with no rules, untrue.
You claimed models with rules were useless. Untrue.
I never claimed that the indexes were here forever, you just said that they are “definitely” going based on suspicion alone.

As it happens I think at some point the indexes will become useless, probably if and when a new edition comes out. Until then they will keep saying to just use those rules in the index. Back to my original points, the ORK range is still as customisable and convertible as ever. It does seem that to okay with non codex models (index or converted/himebrew) then you are going to need a more casual group that is happy to play by non match play rules. I don’t really see how GW can do much more, they say clearly which rules are used in which games etc.

The new style of less options on kits is that. The new style. In the past we had metal models where you had to repeat the same models in a squad. Then the git the plastic kits that were monopose. Then the modular plastic kits, that were interchangeable but that created some ugly looking models, like marauders, now we move to one or two pose plastic kits that are prettier and more dynamic than the interchangeable kits. They still provide variety and poseabilty but less than before. It’s a trade off. And one that’s worth it. Compare the kairic acolytes to the marauders. I’m currently building a load more primaris marines, less interchangeable than other marines but with a bit of cutting and filling still easy to convert and kitbash.


I claimed they 'will' be useless and already told you that, but keep repeating that I don't really care you can think that's what I said all you want.

If you don't think there is a problem you very much have implied that you think the indices are staying, why else would you say there isn't a problem or 'will never be' a problem.

"As it happens I think at some point the indexes will become useless, probably if and when a new edition comes out. " - exactly, so you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you could have said that earlier on, we wouldn't have wasted all this time.

As for the casual group, what if you can't find people that are willing to bend on the rules? What if all your friends are tight arses or overly competitive and won't bend.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 23:29:41


 
   
Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes




U.k

This is the point. You said the models with index rules aren’t useable NOW. Your words not mine. That’s not true. If your group play by the rules then the indexes are fine as they are still legal. You are that one making definite statements that are guess at best or lies at worst. About iron priest for example. “completely useless NOW”. Not true. So you are moaning about GW not addressing an issue that is created by the players. You apparently being as guilty as the rest. So I don’t think there’s a problem because the rules says it’s ok and GW haven’t said they plan on changing those rules anytime soon.

I have said that as it stands all the units are still playable legally. We don’t know for sure when or if they are going. I think for the duration of 8th they are here to stay. So no I don’t think there is a problem. Like I say I only play open and narrative style, prob some where between the two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you can’t find people who are willing to use index rules or even on occasion homemade rules, look for new people or maybe look at why nice open minded people don’t want to be friends with you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/14 23:38:47


 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Andykp wrote:
This is the point. You said the models with index rules aren’t useable NOW. Your words not mine. That’s not true. If your group play by the rules then the indexes are fine as they are still legal. You are that one making definite statements that are guess at best or lies at worst. About iron priest for example. “completely useless NOW”. Not true. So you are moaning about GW not addressing an issue that is created by the players. You apparently being as guilty as the rest. So I don’t think there’s a problem because the rules says it’s ok and GW haven’t said they plan on changing those rules anytime soon.

I have said that as it stands all the units are still playable legally. We don’t know for sure when or if they are going. I think for the duration of 8th they are here to stay. So no I don’t think there is a problem. Like I say I only play open and narrative style, prob some where between the two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you can’t find people who are willing to use index rules or even on occasion homemade rules, look for new people or maybe look at why nice open minded people don’t want to be friends with you.


Are completely useless now, as in from this point on we know they will no longer be in the codex. I normally debate with people that assume that 'that's what they are talking about' that have the ability to think past the text on the screen, never talked to someone where you have to be completely literal. you're a clown mate, I'm not even going bother, just keep repeating things I'm not gonna reply.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 23:45:47


 
   
Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes




U.k

Not kidding. Interested to see if could defended your position. Again you refuse to which suggests it is flawed. Not a leg to stand on.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Andykp wrote:
Not kidding. Interested to see if could defended your position. Again you refuse to which suggests it is flawed. Not a leg to stand on.


Defend what, how can you defend anything when you ignore every point that has been made. Again its useless NOW as in from the point of the codex we understand that it is USELESS because in the future there won't have any rules. This is ridiculous now I mean are you just messing with me?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 23:49:26


 
   
Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes




U.k

Useless means with out any uses. Now tends to mean now, as in not in the future or past, but the present. As in, now.

So if by useless now, you actually meant useless some time in the future possibly or can be used now but isn’t in one particular book but is still legal now then that’s ok. It’s not really English but it’s ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, a little bit. But my point still stands.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/15 00:18:09


 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Delvarus, nobody is ignoring any point you have made.

You just didn't make any point, at all.

Your base claims are unbased future speculation at best, while some are outright false. Any "conclusion" you draw from such failed assumptions doesn't even need to be addressed as it is not anchored in reality.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes




U.k

What boomwolf said.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Camkierhi wrote:
GW don't want you to be creative, they want you to buy their kits, and their kits only. The Orks where created in a time of wonder when the developers liked creativity, indeed regularly encouraged scratch building, but now they are a liability. I honestly believe they would drop them if they could.

I take you never bothered to watch WC youtube channel? You know, the one full of conversion videos? That often encourages 'illegal' units or builds solely because they are creative?

Mind if I ask why they are doing that if they hate creativity like you said?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compare the level of bitz and variety between regular marines and the new kits they produced now.

You mean, like a tactical marine can take bolter, bolter, or even bolter?

I'll take primaris with their multiple poses and multiple options on every single guy over tacticals coming with squat, squat, or squat (and above-mentioned bolter) any day. Really, all primaris need is giving their sarge access to sarge weapon options (and maybe new melta/flamer squad) to make old kits look completely obsolete in comparison...
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


As for the mega nob, its not just a mega nob they have parts just like in the nob set that are designed to use for warbosses and GW have always worked with that understanding and you know it. GW have models/kitbashed warbosses and the like in their own codex army display pics and white dwarf etc. But regardless even if they don't they are still doing away with rules that we have bought kits to make for and in some cases bought multiple kits to make these models.


There are no Warboss specific parts in the Meganob kit Sprues include
3 Power klaws
6 Kill sawz
Various kombi options
a KMB for the big mek
KFF for the big mek
a tellyporta gun for the big mek
a grot oiler
various bitz to add character

None of these are warboss specific options, they are options a warboss can take, but at that point it is just counting a mega nob as a mega boss. There are no instructions in the package for building said boss either.

The point remains that GW is only producing rules for models that can be built using bits from a single kit and leaving the rest for the index at this time. Those may go away at some point. IT stinks from the stand point of a long time player who owns those models. It is good practice for selling the game going forward, to new people because it is frustrating to need to buy 3 different kits to create an option in your codex.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the other hand being forced to buy a 10man strike squad just to be able to play an escalation league, is just as bad as being forced to buy 2 single model kits. The whole GK line is bogus though. No HQs other then specials and a walker, that doesn't have the designation of being an HQ on the box. One HQ is resin the other one is the big 3 box. there is no model for librarians, chapters masters, champions, ancients etc And maybe that is way GW also makes those options not worth taking. I do sympitize with people that have important list units or models hidden in index or FW, with a good chance of them being gone soon.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





It is not though, the issue with needing multiple boxes is that a new player has no way to know they need to purchase those boxes. They look in the codex and see an option, then look for the kit needed and see no available kit, or see options for a squad only to buy the box and not have those options. GK are actually good on that front, their kits contain all the upgrades they have available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The issue with GK is they started as an army with inquisition supplementing their model line, then inquisition was removed but nothing was really added.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/15 13:25:52


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




 vipoid wrote:


So why do Glaives need a -1 to hit at all?
-I agree with you there, they don't need a -1 to hit. Even if you hit on 1+ by turn 3.

Also, if Succubi are supposed to be infantry-killers, why do they have the fewest attacks of any of our HQs?
-They're also dirt cheap


cmspano wrote:

Shardnet and Impailer for a Succubus is a decent character hunter. Hold them them with the net and a 3++ save and stick them with a D2 weapon. Not amazing but not bad.


A D2 weapon with S3 and AP-1. Most characters are going to punch the weakling Succubus to oblivion - 3++ or not - long before they fall to her worthless Impailer.
-Well yeh, you don't take it as S3, you take it as S5. Cursed blade and combat drugs are +2 S

cmspano wrote:

Razorflails I think can be ok if you build a specific Succ for it. The WL trait that gets exploding hits, STR boosts, etc. It's definitely not a good general weapon for a Succ.


But if you're going that route, you might as well just give her the Agoniser artefact.
-Cause when you're S5 you wound most characters on a 3+. Not a lot of characters that matter have a good armor save but no invul save, so the Agonizer's -3 AP doesn't matter so much.

cmspano wrote:
They were kind of neat but I don't really care. I play DE for a really fast transport army with good firepower.


Here's the thing - you always had the option to not take those items. I now have no option to still take them.

You lose nothing by those wargear options remaining in the codex. I (along with anyone else who liked them) do lose when they're removed.
-That's true, if I had the power I would keep the options. I'm just saying I personally don't care. It would be nice to have them for those who do.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

cmspano wrote:

-They're also dirt cheap


But this is the thing I never asked for Succubi to be dirt cheap. I don't see why they can't be more expensive but actually good in combat with access to meaningful weapons.

Alternatively, make the Glaive more expensive, but bring it up to Power Fist standards. That way anyone wanting a Cheap succubus can just swap out the Glaive for Wych weapons or such if they prefer.


cmspano wrote:
-Well yeh, you don't take it as S3, you take it as S5. Cursed blade and combat drugs are +2 S


But if you do that then you're wasting one of the best combat drugs for Wych/Hellion squads on your HQ, and she's still a poor-man's duellist.


cmspano wrote:

-Cause when you're S5 you wound most characters on a 3+.


I guess, but the opportunity cost to get her to that point seems excessive, to say the least.

cmspano wrote:
Not a lot of characters that matter have a good armor save but no invul save, so the Agonizer's -3 AP doesn't matter so much.


Eh, I've seen quite a lot of characters with an armour save 2 better than their invulnerable save. (Also, minor correction - the Agoniser is only AP-2).

Regardless, even for a budget Succubus, I really don't see the appeal of Razorflails over the Hydra Gauntlets. You already hit on 2s rerolling 1s, so all you're getting is d3 extra attacks. Meanwhile, the Gauntlets have the same AP, give +1 attack and let you reroll all failed to-wound rolls. Even with the warlord trait that lets you generate extra attacks on 6s to hit, you're still only getting (on average) 1 extra base attack over the Gauntlets. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

cmspano wrote:

-That's true, if I had the power I would keep the options. I'm just saying I personally don't care. It would be nice to have them for those who do.


I'm pleased that we can at least agree on this.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Andykp wrote:
Useless means with out any uses. Now tends to mean now, as in not in the future or past, but the present. As in, now.

So if by useless now, you actually meant useless some time in the future possibly or can be used now but isn’t in one particular book but is still legal now then that’s ok. It’s not really English but it’s ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, a little bit. But my point still stands.





Anyways,

What makes everyone so sure the Indexes are going away? We were told the Indexes will exist so that people who have those models no longer supported in the official line can still play with them for ever.
   
Made in gb
Screamin' Stormboy





 Togusa wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Useless means with out any uses. Now tends to mean now, as in not in the future or past, but the present. As in, now.

So if by useless now, you actually meant useless some time in the future possibly or can be used now but isn’t in one particular book but is still legal now then that’s ok. It’s not really English but it’s ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, a little bit. But my point still stands.





Anyways,

What makes everyone so sure the Indexes are going away? We were told the Indexes will exist so that people who have those models no longer supported in the official line can still play with them for ever.


Lack of further support in the form of:
Lack of updating rules on dattasheets for future editions/changes/faqs
Lack of new models
Creep

These are things observable in both AOS and 40K already.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Togusa wrote:

What makes everyone so sure the Indexes are going away? We were told the Indexes will exist so that people who have those models no longer supported in the official line can still play with them for ever.


My guess is that people are simply preparing themselves for the worst.

It's possible that Indexes will stick around forever . . . but if that's the case, then what exactly was the point of not just including those options in the codices? That way, GW wouldn't have had to release an entire flowchart to explain to people what options they can still take.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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UK

I fully expect Index's to vanish in time. Just like all the old options vanish with time.


Basically GW is aiming their current line at having 1 codex/battletome that has all the models for an army within it at the point of printing. A new gamer will pick that up and go with it and won't even consider the index because GW won't produce any model that isn't in the codex already.

New models will, of course, be added over time and will appear in revised codex and stand alone (AoS at least has the rules for all models in the box and we can expect GW to do the same for new 40K models released between codex editions).


The index are not even listed on the GW stores once a codex is released for an army. GW clearly intends to run down stock of them and chances are they will go off sale at some point, but might stick around as PDFs or the like.



From a gamer angle it makes sense that the index will go away; certainly I can see tournaments restricting them and banning them, esp as the game keeps evolving and the Index do not get updated to remain balanced nor enter into FAQ and other balance adjustments. That attitude will filter down into matched play and general play at most clubs.

Of course many people will still be happy for players to break out some "retro" or custom models for some fun games now and then; and some clubs which have a more casual attitude will favour this whilst those which don't won't. So there will be some variation within the community at the club level.


There will likely be more leniency for armies found only within Index/old versions of rules; so that might mean some of the specialist Imperial Guard sub-faction groups; however they might still wind up banned at competitive events, but you're more likely to get a causal game.





But ultimately the game will evolve as it always has and old stuff that is no longer supported will be retired. Now we MIGHT well see GW bring some back. Many Tyranid players were saddened at the loss of their special character Zoanthrope, however the Neurothrope was added and many are using their old character conversions as neurothropes. Other times GW might bring back a model in its entirety - eg I can see them one day bringing back characters on bikes for Marines.
So its not all doom and gloom for gamers and there's justifiable reasons to hold onto old models.

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U.k

 Togusa wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Useless means with out any uses. Now tends to mean now, as in not in the future or past, but the present. As in, now.

So if by useless now, you actually meant useless some time in the future possibly or can be used now but isn’t in one particular book but is still legal now then that’s ok. It’s not really English but it’s ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, a little bit. But my point still stands.





Anyways,

What makes everyone so sure the Indexes are going away? We were told the Indexes will exist so that people who have those models no longer supported in the official line can still play with them for ever.


And Togusa wins!
   
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 vipoid wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

What makes everyone so sure the Indexes are going away? We were told the Indexes will exist so that people who have those models no longer supported in the official line can still play with them for ever.


My guess is that people are simply preparing themselves for the worst.

It's possible that Indexes will stick around forever . . . but if that's the case, then what exactly was the point of not just including those options in the codices? That way, GW wouldn't have had to release an entire flowchart to explain to people what options they can still take.


The answer to that is simple, they don't want new players looking at options in the codex that have no models for sale. SO the answer is they did not want to eliminate models owned by long time players at the change of edition, and so rules were provided for use by those players. My guess though is that those models may lose their rules as of 9th ed whenever that occurs.
   
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The fact they no longer sell the index is a worrying sign.

Want to play with a model from the index? Sure. You just have to try and find someone else who owns an Index and doesn't want to play with those models anymore... And as time passes the number of Index's in print will only go down.

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The dark behind the eyes.

Breng77 wrote:

The answer to that is simple, they don't want new players looking at options in the codex that have no models for sale.


See, I can't see how having options in the codex that have no models for sale is any different from having options in the index that have no models for sale.

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I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
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They were transitional books, so they have no reason to continue printing them, if you did not own those old models with the index, they don't intend on you starting to use them now.
   
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UK

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The fact they no longer sell the index is a worrying sign.

Want to play with a model from the index? Sure. You just have to try and find someone else who owns an Index and doesn't want to play with those models anymore... And as time passes the number of Index's in print will only go down.


Aye but GW might be persuaded to release them online for free. Heck AoS has all their unit stats online for free right this very moment so its certainly an approach GW are now open to considering. Index would be legacy models and they might well not update it for a new 9th edition and further on.

I mean heck GW doesn't make rules for Squats any more; nor Zoats or a huge number of retired models. The only difference we've had recently is that GW has done this en-mass for the whole game at once rather than a very slow drip feed of faction by faction as they released new codex.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
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 vipoid wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

The answer to that is simple, they don't want new players looking at options in the codex that have no models for sale.


See, I can't see how having options in the codex that have no models for sale is any different from having options in the index that have no models for sale.


The index is a transitional book, so it includes models no longer for sale, and is only needed by those who either own those old models, or started playing this edition before the codex for their army was released. The codex is meant (much like the kits) to include only those options that are available for sale out of the box. So a new player can pick up the codex, look at a unit, and then buy that exact unit. Indices were designed to cover long term players with legacy models, the codex is not it is not hard to understand.
   
 
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