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 JNAProductions wrote:
You keep saying the UM tactic sucks. And yet models with FLY are considered pretty damn good, if they're shooty.

If it functioned as actual fly keyword (this would actually be silly because they aren't harlequins) I wouldn't complain. Typically when you lose combat you are gonna get wrapped. Not because they don't want you to be able to shoot - but they don't want to get shot by the rest of your army. It really isn't hard to wrap units ether. You can't really wrap a fly unit. Also the minus -1 penalty is another silly weakness. For such a conditional trait it should really be removed. I don't know how you can argue otherwise. Fly keyword is handed out like candy in other armies and they sure aren't paying much for it ether. +1 LD? I can honestly say the leadership is almost entirely worthless. 1 out of 20 games it will matter. Where as every other trait will matter in pretty much every game. I always considered it being a balancing factor for Gman and I just kinda accepted it. With gman being nerfed to doing nothing any other chapter can do. There is absolutely no reason for such a weak trait. They even made a stratagem for you to ignore the -1 to hit from your trait when you fall back. Insult to injury - that is acknowledging the fact they know the trait is garbage but think you should have to spend CP to make your trait not garbage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Xeno your entire codex got bonus AP across the whole army…. wounds, attacks and multiple point drops plus all sorts of strats. Do you even have the book yet?

How you can complain is beyond me.. You codex has a bad unit in it? Woopse friggin doodle. welcome to 40k where most codex have 60% of their entries dog gak.

Heaven forbid you have to think and use right weapons for right targets rather than spam 40 intercessors with g man and expect to win purely through ROF re-roll everything... Most of us having to choose bwteen fine cast or gtfo units would kill their first borns for a kick ass codex and constant stream of new releases...

True - I am getting a healthy dose of plastic crack compared to eldar for marines but I play all the armies. you have my sympathy if all you want is new eldar minis to build and paint. Have you considered quins? I have a fair sized eldar force too. All ulthwe. Realistically I use the same strategy with eldar as well - except I don't have to rally around a 6" bubble buff. I deep strike 20-40 gaurdians and shoot the doomed target + I take starcannon warwalkers because I plan to shoot them at doomed target. I take 2-3 fireprisims and use linked fire. Reliability is the name of the game.

Imagine you spent like 500 quid on 3 repuslors and 2 executioners. Got them all painted and then suddenly they both get nerfed by about 15% point cost - when they already werent that great flying around with 3+ saves and no invunes. I think you'd be equally bitter as me. Your favroite and best painted model by far gets nerfed into oblivion (Guilliman). Your chapter tactic (which might as well not even exist in most games) is ignored while every other chapter tactic gets buffed (when they were already better). It is a pretty depressing day to play Ultramarines. They did get some neat new rules but it isn't nearly cosolidation for the losses. The army got weaker and it was already pretty freaking weak. A not ass chapter tactic really should have come with the nerf to gman.

I literally could not beat tau or admech or eldar with space marines. Granted all I face is really well built armies. It seems to me there is a giant disconnect between the rules makers and people who actually understand how the game is played.

It seems you like a hard stomping tabling style of play..

I'm a purist so only CWE units for CWE army(quins should be part of our book but hey ho...). I tend to make lists out of units I like which normally people say they suck and try to make them work for me. It's usualy a 50/50 toss up and people often just don't expect to be dealing with the mobility of warp spiders for example. My next crazy idea is for a warlock conclave on foot and some other wriath shenanighans. My rangers don't even have an infiltrate style deployment so that sucks..

It sucks for you, I get it. But nobody put a gun to your head and told you to Spend £500 on 5 models. You made the choice and banked on the new hotness winning you games and it is not delivering...
When ynnari got nerfed, people dumped their whole armies on ebay so you can cheer yourself up with that.

My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

So you outright admit you don't actually play to the mission, you just look to table?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

So you outright admit you don't actually play to the mission, you just look to table?

I don't ignore it. I want to win ofc. However early in the game if I have a choice to go for kills or points. I'm going to go for kills. If I can do both at the same time all the better. Also taking points away from opponents is a net positive. As Ultramarines though in the past - I pretty much had to table to win.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

I'm sorry ma dude but what you say I do not get.. You either play to win or you don't. If you do, then getting flustered because your way of playing doesn't win seems odd, because you can change the way you aim to play, and play the mission rather than table... And if you don't, then why does it even matter? You cant have your cake and eat it too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

you realize repulsors now have a tactic that allows them to deal 1d3 mortal wounds right? that might be why they raised the cost BTW, specificly to dischourage repulsor spam.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

you realize repulsors now have a tactic that allows them to deal 1d3 mortal wounds right? that might be why they raised the cost BTW, specificly to dischourage repulsor spam.

They can take the orbital relay?

Also - repuslors spam bad but command tank spam okay?

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

you realize repulsors now have a tactic that allows them to deal 1d3 mortal wounds right? that might be why they raised the cost BTW, specificly to dischourage repulsor spam.

They can take the orbital relay?

no it's a stratigium. hunter-slayer missile Hunter Slayer Missile: Repulsor, target vehicle /monstrous creature potentially takes d3 mortal wounds, once per repulsor

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

you realize repulsors now have a tactic that allows them to deal 1d3 mortal wounds right? that might be why they raised the cost BTW, specificly to dischourage repulsor spam.

They can take the orbital relay?

no it's a stratigium. hunter-slayer missile Hunter Slayer Missile: Repulsor, target vehicle /monstrous creature potentially takes d3 mortal wounds, once per repulsor

If it was a 1 time use ability that didn't cost CP yeah...that might be worth 10-15 points but it cost CP. So should not affect point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My goal in every game I play is to table my opponent. Much like in chess or starcraft or any other type of strategy game I enjoy. I have a lot more fun destroying the other guys toys than standing on a poker chip that I got to first. But hey - everyone enjoys the game differently I don't have any problem with that. My repuslors still look friggen sweet so it's not like I wasted the money. The point is everyone has more fun when everyone has an equal chance to win. In this new codex it seems like there is less emphasis on making what was good - no longer good.

I'm sorry ma dude but what you say I do not get.. You either play to win or you don't. If you do, then getting flustered because your way of playing doesn't win seems odd, because you can change the way you aim to play, and play the mission rather than table... And if you don't, then why does it even matter? You cant have your cake and eat it too.

Nah man I lose to eldar and tau because they are better armies than marines buffed by gman. I can't cap objectives when my army is gone.

So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

Justyn wrote:
So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

16 points for a thunderhammer on a sergent's not abd when you consider that a sergent can get a good 4 attacks on a charge. that'll be eneugh to put the hurt on something. with the ability to make sergent weapons masterwork in the codex supplements (it's costly guys don't freak out) that's something worth considering.

So, me and my friend decided to do a 2000pts game last Friday after all of the "official" GW previews had come out. Marine on marine. At this point none of the codex leaks/stratagems/wargear etc. Had been leaked, so it was simply the doctrines and angels of death rules with the enhanced chapter tactics.

My friend played Ultramarines and myself Minotaurs masquerading as Crimson Fists. He had a battalion with a repulsor, executioner, Gman, librarian, vindicare assassinand 3 ten man squads of bolt intercessors. I ran a Brigade with 6 5 man intercessor squads, 3 5 man hellblaster squads, 3 3 man inceptors squads, redemptor dread with gatling/flame, Apothacary, ancient, captain in gravis, lieutenant and Chaplin. All primaris.

I absolutely rekt him. By the end of the third turn, he decided to concede, as we were doing a custom ITC mission with primary/secondry/tertiary objectives, and he was at 1 primary point by that time with me outscoring him badly. He was relying on Gman for full rerolls and the repulsor/executioner to do the heavy lifting, but it didn't palm out. My inceptors deepstriking with -2AP was incredibly bpowerful at deleting his intercessors and vindicare. His unwanting to change from devastator to tactical was baffling as it only buffed his executioners main gun.

While this is a completely abstract and one game example, it shows just how much of a crutch the full reroll Guilliman build was. It's tactically inflexible and armies can and will run rings/out distance you. The codex has really changed the way marines play and I'm positive it's for the good. Because people using guilliman to make anti infantry anti tank was obnoxious as anything and tactically very lazy IMHO.

I've got a tournament coming up in September, and I'm gonna take pictures and write a full report for DakkaDakka. Hopefully the new Codex will help marines be better...

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

Thanks much!

I saw one review that showed the points page, but couldn't make out the Thunderhammer numbers. One character with a Thunderhammer is not so big a deal. But that might make two or three start to seem expensive.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
So, me and my friend decided to do a 2000pts game last Friday after all of the "official" GW previews had come out. Marine on marine. At this point none of the codex leaks/stratagems/wargear etc. Had been leaked, so it was simply the doctrines and angels of death rules with the enhanced chapter tactics.

My friend played Ultramarines and myself Minotaurs masquerading as Crimson Fists. He had a battalion with a repulsor, executioner, Gman, librarian, vindicare assassinand 3 ten man squads of bolt intercessors. I ran a Brigade with 6 5 man intercessor squads, 3 5 man hellblaster squads, 3 3 man inceptors squads, redemptor dread with gatling/flame, Apothacary, ancient, captain in gravis, lieutenant and Chaplin. All primaris.

I absolutely rekt him. By the end of the third turn, he decided to concede, as we were doing a custom ITC mission with primary/secondry/tertiary objectives, and he was at 1 primary point by that time with me outscoring him badly. He was relying on Gman for full rerolls and the repulsor/executioner to do the heavy lifting, but it didn't palm out. My inceptors deepstriking with -2AP was incredibly bpowerful at deleting his intercessors and vindicare. His unwanting to change from devastator to tactical was baffling as it only buffed his executioners main gun.

While this is a completely abstract and one game example, it shows just how much of a crutch the full reroll Guilliman build was. It's tactically inflexible and armies can and will run rings/out distance you. The codex has really changed the way marines play and I'm positive it's for the good. Because people using guilliman to make anti infantry anti tank was obnoxious as anything and tactically very lazy IMHO.

I've got a tournament coming up in September, and I'm gonna take pictures and write a full report for DakkaDakka. Hopefully the new Codex will help marines be better...

To be entirely fair it sounds like your opponent did make some questionable choices for no real reason and in hindsight invalidated his doctrines with the assassin. There may some legs in the tanks and gman yet, but not as a 1 trick pony, people will spend time trying out combos and lists and in a few months when the dust settles we'll have a bigger picture.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
So, me and my friend decided to do a 2000pts game last Friday after all of the "official" GW previews had come out. Marine on marine. At this point none of the codex leaks/stratagems/wargear etc. Had been leaked, so it was simply the doctrines and angels of death rules with the enhanced chapter tactics.

My friend played Ultramarines and myself Minotaurs masquerading as Crimson Fists. He had a battalion with a repulsor, executioner, Gman, librarian, vindicare assassinand 3 ten man squads of bolt intercessors. I ran a Brigade with 6 5 man intercessor squads, 3 5 man hellblaster squads, 3 3 man inceptors squads, redemptor dread with gatling/flame, Apothacary, ancient, captain in gravis, lieutenant and Chaplin. All primaris.

I absolutely rekt him. By the end of the third turn, he decided to concede, as we were doing a custom ITC mission with primary/secondry/tertiary objectives, and he was at 1 primary point by that time with me outscoring him badly. He was relying on Gman for full rerolls and the repulsor/executioner to do the heavy lifting, but it didn't palm out. My inceptors deepstriking with -2AP was incredibly bpowerful at deleting his intercessors and vindicare. His unwanting to change from devastator to tactical was baffling as it only buffed his executioners main gun.

While this is a completely abstract and one game example, it shows just how much of a crutch the full reroll Guilliman build was. It's tactically inflexible and armies can and will run rings/out distance you. The codex has really changed the way marines play and I'm positive it's for the good. Because people using guilliman to make anti infantry anti tank was obnoxious as anything and tactically very lazy IMHO.

I've got a tournament coming up in September, and I'm gonna take pictures and write a full report for DakkaDakka. Hopefully the new Codex will help marines be better...

Do you think the lists or the CT / doctrines were the most important part of your victory ?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Justyn wrote:
So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

LOL 40 point thunderhammers. GW is bonkers.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Justyn wrote:
So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

LOL 40 point thunderhammers. GW is bonkers.

It's an appropriate price for a model with WS2 and more attacks (plus another attack now). Smash captains have been overtly strong for a while now. Taxing them another 19 points isn't going to break the bank.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Justyn wrote:
So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

LOL 40 point thunderhammers. GW is bonkers.

basically a GW equivalent to slapping a child about the head and saying "stop that nonsense" to the whole concept of SmashCaptains. Maybe they're just pissed because they didn't get to copyright that name.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Justyn wrote:
So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

LOL 40 point thunderhammers. GW is bonkers.

It's an appropriate price for a model with WS2 and more attacks (plus another attack now). Smash captains have been overtly strong for a while now. Taxing them another 19 points isn't going to break the bank.

It was already quite expensive though. I really don't think the thunderhammer was the problem. Stratagems enhancing their power 4 fold is the problem. I totally agree - smash captain are too strong with all the combinations.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It was already quite expensive though. I really don't think the thunderhammer was the problem. Stratagems enhancing their power 4 fold is the problem. I totally agree - smash captain are too strong.

Put it this way - those stratagems wouldn't be worth using if there wasn't a thunderhammer there.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It was already quite expensive though. I really don't think the thunderhammer was the problem. Stratagems enhancing their power 4 fold is the problem. I totally agree - smash captain are too strong.

Put it this way - those stratagems wouldn't be worth using if there wasn't a thunderhammer there.

Or if the thunder hammer costs a arm, leg and liver.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It was already quite expensive though. I really don't think the thunderhammer was the problem. Stratagems enhancing their power 4 fold is the problem. I totally agree - smash captain are too strong.

Put it this way - those stratagems wouldn't be worth using if there wasn't a thunderhammer there.

Why not just increase the cost of the stratagem that gives bonus attacks? Or fix the busted CP system. It seems like they are trying to do that as in this codex space marines basically lost the ability to bring allies because it takes away doctrines. At the same time they make a thunder hammer 40 points. Basically you can't take it at that price. If a power fist is 9 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Justyn wrote:
So anyone have the scoop on the new Thunderhammer point costs? I saw someone said 40pts, but they seemed to be questioning it not stating it.

Thanks much.

16 pts on non-characters. 40 pts on Characters. These are 100% verified from images of the codex points pages.

LOL 40 point thunderhammers. GW is bonkers.

basically a GW equivalent to slapping a child about the head and saying "stop that nonsense" to the whole concept of SmashCaptains. Maybe they're just pissed because they didn't get to copyright that name.

Kinda like they doubled the cost of most titans. It's a statement "don't use this".

Still better than putting them on DC. Just sayin.

Vet intercessors sgts are going to have 5 attacks granted they'll be swinging on 4s but it's still solid imo

I'll admit, 40ppm Hammers for characters is a bit much, but 30ppm would have hit the right tone. Characters always get more out of melee weapons because of their better WS, Atx and inherent rerolls (most of the time) and the Hammer having reliable D3 is huge.
21ppm was an auto-take option, so bumping up to 30ppm would have left room for other options like Fists or Relic blades.

I suspect CA2019 will tone down the TH price for Characters, but likewise bump the cost on units to 20ppm (since you are now getting Sgts with the same number of attacks as some Characters)

-

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It was already quite expensive though. I really don't think the thunderhammer was the problem. Stratagems enhancing their power 4 fold is the problem. I totally agree - smash captain are too strong.

Put it this way - those stratagems wouldn't be worth using if there wasn't a thunderhammer there.

Or if the thunder hammer costs a arm, leg and liver.

If the smash captain is able to make it to combat unmolested, which is expected for him to work, then he's hitting like a truck. That you have to pay 21 more points doesn't change that he;ll still hit above his weight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Why not just increase the cost of the stratagem that gives bonus attacks? Or fix the busted CP system. It seems like they are trying to do that as in this codex space marines basically lost the ability to bring allies because it takes away doctrines. At the same time they make a thunder hammer 40 points. Basically you can't take it at that price. If a power fist is 9 points.

Then take a power fist if you think the cost is too high. When a fist was less than half a TH people STILL didn't take it, because they're going to make sure they maximize damage.

What did HTHs end up getting nerfed to? 50ppm?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What did HTHs end up getting nerfed to? 50ppm?

Hammers on characters are 40 points. Hammers on non-characters are unchanged.