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Karol wrote:
Well I bought models, they are there to play games. Having paid money for an army, and not playing it and getting something out of playing the game would be a huge waste.
And to a degree I do think, that I would have been better if I bought a tablet like my sister did. Only time she was not happy with it, was when it broke for a week.

On the other hand nothing in the rules says you have to like people you play against. In general I don't like people, mostly because I don't understand social interactions. But I would never say I hate people. I don't think there are only two states, hate or like. I mean most people are just indifferent

... so you dislike socializing with people and you wonder why your experiance with a board game is.. sub optimal? dude, it wouldn't matter if your army was radically over powered (in fact I suspect you'd be absolutely toxic if it was). if you don't enjoy socializing with someone To be blunt, 40k isn't for you.

It could be free and the usual group of people complaining would be griping about downloading and printing.

FFS I have seen some I sane reaches to claim mandatory purchase of something we haven't seen and don't know how it is being rolled out.

Claim it's mandatory when we know how it works. Until then people are just inventing reasons to whinge.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It could be free and the usual group of people complaining would be griping about downloading and printing.

FFS I have seen some I sane reaches to claim mandatory purchase of something we haven't seen and don't know how it is being rolled out.

Claim it's mandatory when we know how it works. Until then people are just inventing reasons to whinge.

It's honestly pretty entitled too. demanding that if GW puts out a product they should give them the part they want for free...

BrianDavion 779687 10557836 wrote:
... so you dislike socializing with people and you wonder why your experiance with a board game is.. sub optimal? dude, it wouldn't matter if your army was radically over powered (in fact I suspect you'd be absolutely toxic if it was). if you don't enjoy socializing with someone To be blunt, 40k isn't for you.

I don't understand "socializing" most of the time, and when I was starting , I got invited by people from school, and my therapist said it is a good idea to have a hobby.
I think that if my army worked better, I would feel a lot better about the money I spent. I can't be 100% sure of it, but I think it would be so. Right now playing Grey Knights is not very fun, on top of it most the people I started with either left the game and moved to something else, or started playing in tournaments.
Plus I think there is a language barrier here, what is the thing between hate and not liking people in english?

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well I bought models, they are there to play games. Having paid money for an army, and not playing it and getting something out of playing the game would be a huge waste.
And to a degree I do think, that I would have been better if I bought a tablet like my sister did. Only time she was not happy with it, was when it broke for a week.

On the other hand nothing in the rules says you have to like people you play against. In general I don't like people, mostly because I don't understand social interactions. But I would never say I hate people. I don't think there are only two states, hate or like. I mean most people are just indifferent

... so you dislike socializing with people and you wonder why your experiance with a board game is.. sub optimal? dude, it wouldn't matter if your army was radically over powered (in fact I suspect you'd be absolutely toxic if it was). if you don't enjoy socializing with someone To be blunt, 40k isn't for you.

Karol plays in what has to be the worst meta ever. They have stated numerous times that if your opponent doesn't like something they'll break your models(or so has been related before). Everyone apparently plays super spam lists and anyone not doing the same is ridiculed. Since they play GK (which GW has pissed all over in 8th) and do not have the money to change it it extra blows for them.

I'm sure if they were in a different meta with even a mediocre army, they'd have an entirely different outlook.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
First off, it's an opinion, so it can't be right or wrong, just mine or yours.

Note that one can be of the opinion that the earth is flat and be entirely wrong.

Warhammer is a little less clear cut, but the notion that opinions are unassailable or always of equal weight is a major problem with society these days.

I'd say angryangel80 is right, all opinions have equal merit. the problem is people confuse their beliefs about what facts are true with opinions. An opinion is something entirely subjective, such as cake is nice/bad. Those have equal merit, because it's personal taste, i.e. an opinion. Saying the earth is flat is proclaiming a belief that the earth is a certain shape. This belief is wrong, as anyone with half a brain can tell the earth is round, you need only look at a ship going over the horizon, but people think their beliefs and opinions are one and the same.

I was going to respond but you did it well enough for me, thank you. I was never really sure the earth is flat when we know it to be round can be an opinion. After all we all know the earth is hollow, silly people.

Did GW release new stuff?

No. -> Complain about lack of releases.

Yes, but it was not for my faction. -> Complain about your faction being ignored.

Yes, and it is for my faction. -> Complain about GW forcing you to spend money on the new stuff.

 Crimson wrote:

Did GW release new stuff?

No. -> Complain about lack of releases.

Yes, but it was not for my faction. -> Complain about your faction being ignored.

Yes, and it is for my faction. -> Complain about GW forcing you to spend money on the new stuff.

I think you missed the on when people complain that the new stuff they had to buy is bad, or invalidated by a FAQ/errata a few months later.

 Crimson wrote:

Did GW release new stuff?

No. -> Complain about lack of releases.

Yes, but it was not for my faction. -> Complain about your faction being ignored.

Yes, and it is for my faction. -> Complain about GW forcing you to spend money on the new stuff.

As funny side note, I've never complained GW didn't release something. I've also never complained they didn't release things for my faction ( well except for plastic rough riders, I still want those ) also never really complained about the cost. If its too much it'll just not be picked up. I'm sure there are others who also break that generalist mold as well. I mean people can have complaints and still see the bigger picture. Trying to down play it all as baseless whining for whining sake is a little silly.

Whining abouthow required a product is for your army beforr the product is even given a full reveal is the definition of baseless whining.

I'd be more annoyed Marines just got the kind of Codex we all would want for our faction of choice and the next year of releases is knocked out by Marine Supplements and these Campaign scraps for everyone else.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Whining abouthow required a product is for your army beforr the product is even given a full reveal is the definition of baseless whining.

Whining about whining is also pretty baseless my guy. I know you gotta get your little snipes in but unless you are lost in the sauce, you'd know these books will be buffs and most will consider them must haves because of those buffs so please, how about you look at past releases and take some guidance from those. Unless you really believe that those books, which feature two factions , won't have any significant buffs for the armies they are revolving around in some mad scheme to sell the books. As I have to say, if thats the case I'd be mind blown.

Well, except for GK, they probably would not improve them just out of pure meanness.

The only question is, how will they buff them, and how much of a buff will they be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
I'd be more annoyed Marines just got the kind of Codex we all would want for our faction of choice and the next year of releases is knocked out by Marine Supplements and these Campaign scraps for everyone else.

If I played chaos I'd be pretty annoyed. Though Who knows what the schedule looks like but I'd assume the rest of this year will be marines, these awakened books and sisters least as far as 40k is concerned with a smattering of AoS drops and specialist games, the usual end of year large army boxes etc. That's me guessing mind you with how long they are drawing out this marine drop.

Counting the number of supplement books GW has released over the years, most of them were flops that barely got played.

Even their campaign books are widly hit or miss.

Trying to judtify complaining before seeing the rules, price point or really anything about this release other than a notice that it's coming is just silly.

And you're right, I am complaining about people complaining because it's gotten past silly. GW could mail each of their customers a stack of money and people would still find a way to complain about it.

When GW screws up I get it. I even get criticizing a released product, but all we have is a bunch of self-gratification circle of the usual suspects crying about how mean GW is for updating armies and how everything should be handed them for free (and even them they'll complain about having to download and/or print things) before we've even seen the actual product.

The online community has been progressively getting more vocally toxic (Facebook being the worst of it) and at some point people have enough of it. I know I have. I won't insist everyone has to like everything in every release but at least have the common sense to see the product before you start complaining about it.

But sure, complain about me complaing about people making stuff up to complain about. I'm sure that won't be even more of a easte of everyone's time.

Karol wrote:
Well I bought models, they are there to play games. Having paid money for an army, and not playing it and getting something out of playing the game would be a huge waste.
And to a degree I do think, that I would have been better if I bought a tablet like my sister did. Only time she was not happy with it, was when it broke for a week.

On the other hand nothing in the rules says you have to like people you play against. In general I don't like people, mostly because I don't understand social interactions. But I would never say I hate people. I don't think there are only two states, hate or like. I mean most people are just indifferent

Did you ever stop to think that maybe this particular hobby, one that is focused around social interaction, empathy for your opponent and co-operation between people in making the experience enjoyable is perhaps not for you?

 Ishagu wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well I bought models, they are there to play games. Having paid money for an army, and not playing it and getting something out of playing the game would be a huge waste.
And to a degree I do think, that I would have been better if I bought a tablet like my sister did. Only time she was not happy with it, was when it broke for a week.

On the other hand nothing in the rules says you have to like people you play against. In general I don't like people, mostly because I don't understand social interactions. But I would never say I hate people. I don't think there are only two states, hate or like. I mean most people are just indifferent

Did you ever stop to think that maybe this particular hobby, one that is focused around social interaction, empathy for your opponent and co-operation between people in making the experience enjoyable is perhaps not for you?

They've said before that the meta in their part of Poland is brutal, both in literal and figurative terms. I do question the want to start this hobby if you're not a people person or struggle with societal interaction.

It would be as if I, hypothetically, wanted to play MTG but hated the kind of people that play it... oh wait that is real feeling so bad example.

Granted there are a decent amount of stuff you can do that doesnt involve another person. Build, paint, read lore, etc are great if you're not into people.

Racerguy180 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well I bought models, they are there to play games. Having paid money for an army, and not playing it and getting something out of playing the game would be a huge waste.
And to a degree I do think, that I would have been better if I bought a tablet like my sister did. Only time she was not happy with it, was when it broke for a week.

On the other hand nothing in the rules says you have to like people you play against. In general I don't like people, mostly because I don't understand social interactions. But I would never say I hate people. I don't think there are only two states, hate or like. I mean most people are just indifferent

... so you dislike socializing with people and you wonder why your experiance with a board game is.. sub optimal? dude, it wouldn't matter if your army was radically over powered (in fact I suspect you'd be absolutely toxic if it was). if you don't enjoy socializing with someone To be blunt, 40k isn't for you.

Karol plays in what has to be the worst meta ever. They have stated numerous times that if your opponent doesn't like something they'll break your models(or so has been related before). Everyone apparently plays super spam lists and anyone not doing the same is ridiculed. Since they play GK (which GW has pissed all over in 8th) and do not have the money to change it it extra blows for them.

I'm sure if they were in a different meta with even a mediocre army, they'd have an entirely different outlook.

Starting to read like a personal projection issue.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well I bought models, they are there to play games. Having paid money for an army, and not playing it and getting something out of playing the game would be a huge waste.
And to a degree I do think, that I would have been better if I bought a tablet like my sister did. Only time she was not happy with it, was when it broke for a week.

On the other hand nothing in the rules says you have to like people you play against. In general I don't like people, mostly because I don't understand social interactions. But I would never say I hate people. I don't think there are only two states, hate or like. I mean most people are just indifferent

Did you ever stop to think that maybe this particular hobby, one that is focused around social interaction, empathy for your opponent and co-operation between people in making the experience enjoyable is perhaps not for you?

They've said before that the meta in their part of Poland is brutal, both in literal and figurative terms. I do question the want to start this hobby if you're not a people person or struggle with societal interaction.

There's a difference between not being great at socialising and not wanting to socialise.

I am not a people person but I enjoyed playing Warhammer with people when I played at a store. But if the people there are awful then Warhammer isn't going to suddenly make them nice to be around.

There is always going to be a small but loud percentage of the 40k scene that always complain about codex creep, prices, a particular army (Knights are a prime target), competitive players and so on, and it's this group that are by far the most negative. I actually find competitive players far friendlier and more fun to play against. If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

 Elfric wrote:
There is always going to be a small but loud percentage of the 40k scene that always complain about codex creep, prices, a particular army (Knights are a prime target), competitive players and so on, and it's this group that are by far the most negative. I actually find competitive players far friendlier and more fun to play against. If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

I can't tell if the vocal minority is getting larger, or just louder in recent years but either way I find it ridiculous that they feel they can make up claims in order to play victim to the "big bad GW" and any attempt to call them out for being the toxic element in the community is dismissed as "white knighting".

What makes it worse is that this behavior makes it harder to get real criticisms heard or addressed because they're drowned out in a sea of manure. They not only prevent meaningful engagement with GW to improve the game, but they actively poison the well for new players, and can even push veteran players away. It's acting in bad faith and I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of seeing it every time I go online.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
There is always going to be a small but loud percentage of the 40k scene that always complain about codex creep, prices, a particular army (Knights are a prime target), competitive players and so on, and it's this group that are by far the most negative. I actually find competitive players far friendlier and more fun to play against. If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

I can't tell if the vocal minority is getting larger, or just louder in recent years but either way I find it ridiculous that they feel they can make up claims in order to play victim to the "big bad GW" and any attempt to call them out for being the toxic element in the community is dismissed as "white knighting".

What makes it worse is that this behavior makes it harder to get real criticisms heard or addressed because they're drowned out in a sea of manure. They not only prevent meaningful engagement with GW to improve the game, but they actively poison the well for new players, and can even push veteran players away. It's acting in bad faith and I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of seeing it every time I go online.

You could take a break from the game/community and I don't mean that in a hostile way at all. Taking a break did wonders for my enjoyment of the game and the community.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
There is always going to be a small but loud percentage of the 40k scene that always complain about codex creep, prices, a particular army (Knights are a prime target), competitive players and so on, and it's this group that are by far the most negative. I actually find competitive players far friendlier and more fun to play against. If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

I can't tell if the vocal minority is getting larger, or just louder in recent years but either way I find it ridiculous that they feel they can make up claims in order to play victim to the "big bad GW" and any attempt to call them out for being the toxic element in the community is dismissed as "white knighting".

What makes it worse is that this behavior makes it harder to get real criticisms heard or addressed because they're drowned out in a sea of manure. They not only prevent meaningful engagement with GW to improve the game, but they actively poison the well for new players, and can even push veteran players away. It's acting in bad faith and I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of seeing it every time I go online.

In a community where you have a vocal toxic population it tends to enchourage new faces to adopt the same toxicity (often in an attempt to fit in) well driving away the moderates. I've observed it in MMO communities too where the toxic elements almost take over and the moderate elements just stop interacting because it's not worth the time. To be honest I wish the moderators here would be a liiiitle more active in managing this. when codex space marines came out we had five "I hate Primaris and you should too" threads. it would have been nice to see them all merged into a single thread.

If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

I've a theory for why we have people whom hate on 40k, do not play 40k any longer, have no intreast in reading the books etc. but continue to basicly troll the 40k forums with their hate.
It's ESSENTIALLY a sunk cost fallacy. they've put time and money into 40k in the past, and thus can't admit that they've moved beyond 40k and thus continue to basicly run around talking about it, but at the end of the day they have nothing to say beyond "I dislike it"

pm713 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
There is always going to be a small but loud percentage of the 40k scene that always complain about codex creep, prices, a particular army (Knights are a prime target), competitive players and so on, and it's this group that are by far the most negative. I actually find competitive players far friendlier and more fun to play against. If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

I can't tell if the vocal minority is getting larger, or just louder in recent years but either way I find it ridiculous that they feel they can make up claims in order to play victim to the "big bad GW" and any attempt to call them out for being the toxic element in the community is dismissed as "white knighting".

What makes it worse is that this behavior makes it harder to get real criticisms heard or addressed because they're drowned out in a sea of manure. They not only prevent meaningful engagement with GW to improve the game, but they actively poison the well for new players, and can even push veteran players away. It's acting in bad faith and I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of seeing it every time I go online.

You could take a break from the game/community and I don't mean that in a hostile way at all. Taking a break did wonders for my enjoyment of the game and the community.

I only recently came back from a break and I have to say there is an issue if you need to take breaks from your hobby (which is supposed to be a leisure activity).

yeah sometimes stepping away from the communioty really is useful. it tends to help with ones prespective

BrianDavion wrote:

In a community where you have a vocal toxic population it tends to enchourage new faces to adopt the same toxicity (often in an attempt to fit in) well driving away the moderates. I've observed it in MMO communities too where the toxic elements almost take over and the moderate elements just stop interacting because it's not worth the time. To be honest I wish the moderators here would be a liiiitle more active in managing this. when codex space marines came out we had five "I hate Primaris and you should too" threads. it would have been nice to see them all merged into a single thread.

I appreciate the less censored tone here compared to other communities since it lets us discuss things with less fear of reprisal, but I agree that could have been a super thread especially since it was largely the same group in each of them.

And you're right, the toxic nature can cause quite a problem with the overall tone of a community, which is why I feel it needs addressing when it comes up.

BrianDavion wrote:

If you hate GW that much, eBay your stuff or just stick to modelling and painting.

I've a theory for why we have people whom hate on 40k, do not play 40k any longer, have no intreast in reading the books etc. but continue to basicly troll the 40k forums with their hate.
It's ESSENTIALLY a sunk cost fallacy. they've put time and money into 40k in the past, and thus can't admit that they've moved beyond 40k and thus continue to basicly run around talking about it, but at the end of the day they have nothing to say beyond "I dislike it"

This seems like a likely cause of the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah sometimes stepping away from the communioty really is useful. it tends to help with ones prespective

In my case it gave me a perspective that I don't have to tolerate the toxicity that I see spewed all the time. Just because someone doesn't like something it doesn't give them a free pass to try and ruin that thing for others.

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah sometimes stepping away from the communioty really is useful. it tends to help with ones prespective

What's bizarre to me is that I've never once encountered this kind of whining in the real world. That's not to say I haven't met people who have lamented many of Games-Workshop's decisions/releases, but I've never seen anything like the level of outrage often expressed here. A typical example of a conversation I've had with friends/acquaintances at a game store might go something like this:

"What do you think of that new Primaris walker?"
"I think it's rubbish. It's goofy looking and makes no sense"
"Really? I like it. Gonna pick one up for my Raven Guard successors."
"Fair enough."

Or

"These new Vigilus detachments are great!"
"Yeah? I haven't tried them. Can't really afford any new books at the moment. It's impossible to keep up with everything they're releasing. I wish they'd slow down a bit."
"Yeah. Sure you can borrow mine for a bit."
"Yeah, sound. I'll have a look so."

Can you imagine spending time with people who not only complain, but repeat the same complaints over and over ad nauseum to a group of people with absolutely no power to address those complaints? That would suck!

 Ginjitzu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah sometimes stepping away from the communioty really is useful. it tends to help with ones prespective

What's bizarre to me is that I've never once encountered this kind of whining in the real world. That's not to say I haven't met people who have lamented many of Games-Workshop's decisions/releases, but I've never seen anything like the level of outrage often expressed here. A typical example of a conversation I've had with friends/acquaintances at a game store might go something like this:

"What do you think of that new Primaris walker?"
"I think it's rubbish. It's goofy looking and makes no sense"
"Really? I like it. Gonna pick one up for my Raven Guard successors."
"Fair enough."

Or

"These new Vigilus detachments are great!"
"Yeah? I haven't tried them. Can't really afford any new books at the moment. It's impossible to keep up with everything they're releasing. I wish they'd slow down a bit."
"Yeah. Sure you can borrow mine for a bit."
"Yeah, sound. I'll have a look so."

Can you imagine spending time with people who not only complain, but repeat the same complaints over and over ad nauseum to a group of people with absolutely no power to address those complaints? That would suck!

Yes, maximum suckage.

I found this community becomes significantly more pleasant when you add a few key people to the ignore list.

It's just a shame that so many topics and threads get detailed in the same way.

It would be nice to have a forum for people who enjoy the hobby and get excited by new releases.

 Sentineil wrote:
I found this community becomes significantly more pleasant when you add a few key people to the ignore list.

It's just a shame that so many topics and threads get detailed in the same way.

It would be nice to have a forum for people who enjoy the hobby and get excited by new releases.

agreed it would. I mean it's one thing to have the occasional criticism but when a new major release is literally greated with "OMG! GW! MAKING ME BUY NEW STUFF! THATS HORRIABLE!" .... it's a bit absurb.

I mean "HHOW DARE GW MAKE ME BUY SOMETHING" makes you sound silly and to be blunt, entitled. Simply saying "I hope the new content is intreasting but not OP so as to be truely optional" should suffice

On that note, it seems like this thread has run its course, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it.