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Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
None of this is verified BTW, it's second hand info from B&C forum but I personally believe it all. The FLG guys have said that the Iron Hands supplement is one of the strongest.

- The Iron Father gives units within 6 inches of him a 5+ invulnerable save.


Oh sure, the marines get a 6" 5+ invul bubble, but necrons have to make do with a 3" bubble that doesn't even work in close combat.
Goddammit GW


He atleast you will get probably still a proper 2.0 update

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Not Online!!! wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
None of this is verified BTW, it's second hand info from B&C forum but I personally believe it all. The FLG guys have said that the Iron Hands supplement is one of the strongest.

- The Iron Father gives units within 6 inches of him a 5+ invulnerable save.


Oh sure, the marines get a 6" 5+ invul bubble, but necrons have to make do with a 3" bubble that doesn't even work in close combat.
Goddammit GW


He atleast you will get probably still a proper 2.0 update


Yeah, hopefully that's the case. Maybe they'll catch on that necrons aren't as strong as their early playtesters thought. Apparently the first team they had hated necrons for some reason.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator






Spoletta wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
Spoiler:
The Newman wrote:[I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. I said Marines still have an issue with durability and you seem to be countering with an argument about how Marines aren't very durable.
He is making you're point.

Spoletta wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.


Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
either one or the other would've been fairer.
Yes, why should an Assault rifle that fires RPGs be able to shoot through a basic flak vest? Why indeed...


Because a flak vest will save you in case of indirect fire.
Sure, if you are hit straight on you are fine red mist, but the shrapnel of something being hit by that near you will be stopped by the vest, so a 5+ is a correct representation.

Also, the fact that guards outshoot marines point by point is old math now heavily wrong.
Nowadays a tac marine costs 12 ponts and has shock attack and bolter drill. It will shred guards point per point, and let's not talk about intercessors.
Sure, if you just put them standing still at 12" you will lose (with tacs, not with intercessors) but why would you ever do that???
It's like saying that a kabalite with a blaster pistol outshoots a leman russ command tank point per point, so the tank is underpowered. Range matters.

If you pit 10 tacs against 3 infantry squads (equal points), the math easilly shows that the 10 tacs kill 24 points of guards (plus morale), while the guards kill 18 points of marines. If you factor in cover, this becomes hugely skewed in favor of the marines. This is balanced by the fact that marines are more susceptible to bigger weapons, so after all this buffs, marines are absolutely on the same level of guards when it comes to shoot outs between basic troops (which is a useless analysis, but since it was thrown in here i wanted to rectify the mistakes).

I would like to see your math on that. I get that 40 points of dead marines, not 18. Do get me wrong, in an open shooting match guard should beat marines. Marines should only outshoot guard when cover, doctrines, bolter discipline, etc. come into play. But marines barely outshoot guard when ones of those is active, and not at all when you trade 1 guard squad for a company commander to get FRFSRF, as all guard players do. Say doctrines alone put marines almost equal to guard with no orders, this means marines need to be 4/3rds more survivable to equalize them against guard. Something like a one-time FNP on a 5+ would balance them, maybe while putting them back to 13 ppm.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yes?

There's CSM, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sisters of Battle, vehicle units as a broad category, some Eldar units, etc. And even then, the mirror match matters a lot.

The proliferation of AP2 is, in my opinion, terrible for the balance of toughness, armor, and wounds as metrics of resilience. A fundamental principle of AP is that the more armor you have, the more you're affected by a point of AP. Guardsmen or Orks have paper for armor, and their resilience comes from wound count in the unit, they don't really feel the additional AP. Marine units, however, feel the AP a lot more. Armor is already the weakest defense mode, and wounds is already the strongest; proliferating AP, especially AP2, further encourages massed light infantry and units that have a high wound density over units with armor.

The relative difference between the way a Space Marine and a Guardsmen felt against a Boltgun wound between this edition and last edition was a matter of a Guardsman taking 200% more wounds. Now, Guardsmen take only 100% more wounds by default, and when you start introducing AP it drop to 66% more and then 50% more.

This is also further affecting vehicle unit's relative immunity to light arms. Vehicle's armor saves are already a formality against AT systems and only really existed to neutralize the effect of infantry against them; and AP-2 infantry is also dismantling that.

I think the solution should have been a measure that improve Marine's troops' offensive and defensive capabilities against light troops without seriously affecting heavy infantry units. This is hard to actually find a special-rules based solution, because wounds and shots are the "base value" and effectively the most important factors and will almost always be less affected than systems relying on quality. Quality effects improve the value of each shot or wound, but they don't substitute for more wounds or shots.

So really all these new AP rules will only make marine armies even more fragile against each other, rip GK DA BA SW CSM. I have SS as a DW player, but they can only do so much. I can't think of a good rule to fix durability either. A FNP for marines is the best solution I can come up with, and that's a pretty bad solution. It only increases the quantity of wounds in a statistical manner, and that doesn't address the real problem. Unless the real problem is that marines have too few wounds to manage given the current game rules. Custodes have a baseline of 3 wounds, and that is before a good invuln and a FNP during the psychic phase.

Points cuts for marines is probably the worst solution, marines at an all-time low price (tacs used to be 15 points each) and it turns them into guardsmen who've eaten an extra protein bar. If you don't want angles of death style rules, then marines need basic statline changes.


I don't see why there's a problem with points cost reductions. Reducing the cost both improves the viability of bringing large numbers of Marine infantry [saturation] or leaves more space for toys like tanks or plasma guns or thunder hammer WGPL's. Fundamentally, if the unit is cheap, I can buy capability if it needs it in the form of sergeant power swords, plasmaguns, or WGPL's with hammers; and if I don't need the capability they can be cheap and no drag on my army when they're sitting in the back on an objective or getting blasted off the board while trying to take a forward objective. If the unit is expensive, I can't make them less capable if my plan for them doesn't require that capability, and I also can't afford the capability I really want [wolf guard pack leaders with hammers, or multiple plasmaguns], because instead a bunch of points went towards trying to enforce a 3 guardsmen to 1 marine equivalency rate when the profile's been devalued to about 2 to 2.5 guardsmen per marine.

The thing is, whenever I prep a new Space Wolves list, I wind up at 2k points and half the stuff I wanted to/was planning to have, because everything is so damn expensive. I would like less heroism, more efficiency, because I'm not expecting heroism out of cannon-fodder grade units and HQ's who won't be getting near the fight because they're buffing mostly immobile heavy weapons bearers and cheap tanks and would like to instead be able to buy and extra Long Fang squad or something so I don't have to worry about the one I have being zonked, or more cheap IFV's.

Appreciably, all of these random rules went towards making Marines killier, which IMO wasn't the problem, so much as their resilience was really poor for a troop choice and their support units were really glass cannony. All the tanks are T7 and can be fairly easily harassed or inconvenienced by infantry arms. I think fixing it would have been properly re-assessing a marine's actual worth, as opposed to trying to make him worth the cost they're charging.

Have you tried playing guard or some other hoard army, maybe even admech or eldar? I think they're the armies for you.

Marines are an elite army, you should not be taking any unit as cannon fodder. Imagine going up against a guard player and having almost as many models as they do, it would be insane. Are even playing a 40k game at that point? Custodes showed that elite armies can be durable, marines need the same treatment. They needed universal statline changes at the beginning of 8th, but it is too late for that now. If marines are going to go the angles of death route (i.e. lots of small rules instead of big statline changes), then they need a rule to increase their durability. As I've said earlier, I think the best rule would be a one-time FNP. It would not take away from IH and DG (who have a repeatable FNP), mitigate the 2 damage weapon weakness on primaris, and be most beneficial on 1 wound marines.


Quite easy math actually.
27 laser shots from 3 squads, 13,5 hits, 4,5 wounds, 1,5 kills- Multiplied by 12 ppm that is 18 points.
2 squads with FRFSRF lose a lot of durability but raise the output to 24 points, getting on par with the tac marines.
Obviously this is not within 12", which was the point i was making in the first place.
I see. I wouldn't just assume marines always get bolter discipline, it's something you have to make a big sacrifice to use (ultramarines aside). I would expect them to handily outperform guard when it is active. It is when no special variables are involved that people get worried about how much hordes dominate marines. Again, that's the way it should be. But now there is an excessive difference. Marines need to be buffed to the point where active doctrines will almost equalize them against hordes. And the solution is not to make marines into their own horde army. If marines were 13 points again, had a one-use 5+ FNP (times 1.333 wounds), and tactical doctrine was active, Guard would outshoot them by 1.2 points in rapid-fire range, marines would win by .2 points outside of rapid-fire range.
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

What game are you playing where 2 damage is wasted on most targets? LOL. You don't really play this game do you?

Lets just ignore the fact it starts the game in range and at AP-3 compared to barely in range and AP-1.

Less also ignore the "In my personal opinion"


Probably the same one I'm playing. There aren't a lot of multiwound infantry out there, and most of the multiwound infantry are 3W custodes which D2 is inefficient again. There are a healthy amount of Primaris and Wulfen in the like 5 different Space Wolf players, but mostly there's W1 models like Guardsmen, Boyz, Death Company, Genestealers, etc.


That said, AP-3 D2 infantry-carried weapons are what I didn't want to see and why I dislike all these changes. AP-3 against basic infantry isn't super useful, since you were at the point of effectively eliminating armor saves already at AP-2. An AP-3 D2 infantry-carried sniper rifle is quickly approaching the realm where infantry can fight tanks without having squad light antitank weapons, which is one of the things I just don't think should be an option.

Like, I don't really want basic infantry buffed to the point of tank hunting with assault rifles. Doctrines should have given +1BS to the weapon category or something



That is oddly enough what is going to press me to use some stalker teams as assault rifle tank hunters using kraken rounds for the Death watch. I mean it's silly but add in 2+ to wound MCs from same rifles with 2 damage and it's just too versatile to over look on the cheap.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

What game are you playing where 2 damage is wasted on most targets? LOL. You don't really play this game do you?

Lets just ignore the fact it starts the game in range and at AP-3 compared to barely in range and AP-1.

Less also ignore the "In my personal opinion"


Probably the same one I'm playing. There aren't a lot of multiwound infantry out there, and most of the multiwound infantry are 3W custodes which D2 is inefficient again. There are a healthy amount of Primaris and Wulfen in the like 5 different Space Wolf players, but mostly there's W1 models like Guardsmen, Boyz, Death Company, Genestealers, etc.


That said, AP-3 D2 infantry-carried weapons are what I didn't want to see and why I dislike all these changes. AP-3 against basic infantry isn't super useful, since you were at the point of effectively eliminating armor saves already at AP-2. An AP-3 D2 infantry-carried sniper rifle is quickly approaching the realm where infantry can fight tanks without having squad light antitank weapons, which is one of the things I just don't think should be an option.

Like, I don't really want basic infantry buffed to the point of tank hunting with assault rifles. Doctrines should have given +1BS to the weapon category or something



That is oddly enough what is going to press me to use some stalker teams as assault rifle tank hunters using kraken rounds for the Death watch. I mean it's silly but add in 2+ to wound MCs from same rifles with 2 damage and it's just too versatile to over look on the cheap.


Poor Rubric Marines... they just keep getting worse and now the meta will have an inherent bias against them...
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




sieGermans wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

What game are you playing where 2 damage is wasted on most targets? LOL. You don't really play this game do you?

Lets just ignore the fact it starts the game in range and at AP-3 compared to barely in range and AP-1.

Less also ignore the "In my personal opinion"


Probably the same one I'm playing. There aren't a lot of multiwound infantry out there, and most of the multiwound infantry are 3W custodes which D2 is inefficient again. There are a healthy amount of Primaris and Wulfen in the like 5 different Space Wolf players, but mostly there's W1 models like Guardsmen, Boyz, Death Company, Genestealers, etc.


That said, AP-3 D2 infantry-carried weapons are what I didn't want to see and why I dislike all these changes. AP-3 against basic infantry isn't super useful, since you were at the point of effectively eliminating armor saves already at AP-2. An AP-3 D2 infantry-carried sniper rifle is quickly approaching the realm where infantry can fight tanks without having squad light antitank weapons, which is one of the things I just don't think should be an option.

Like, I don't really want basic infantry buffed to the point of tank hunting with assault rifles. Doctrines should have given +1BS to the weapon category or something



That is oddly enough what is going to press me to use some stalker teams as assault rifle tank hunters using kraken rounds for the Death watch. I mean it's silly but add in 2+ to wound MCs from same rifles with 2 damage and it's just too versatile to over look on the cheap.


Poor Rubric Marines... they just keep getting worse and now the meta will have an inherent bias against them...


As a space wolf player, I've always had a bias against rubrics, the meta just caught up. I kid, but seriously, I don't think they'll like this at all.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Rubric Marines at least can avoid a point of AP basically on all the Rapid Fire weapons? I dunno.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubric Marines at least can avoid a point of AP basically on all the Rapid Fire weapons? I dunno.


Regular csm will hate it more, especially when tacs show up.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubric Marines at least can avoid a point of AP basically on all the Rapid Fire weapons? I dunno.


Regular csm will hate it more, especially when tacs show up.

Seeing that the Chaos Marine entry should've been deleted a long time ago, I don't care too much.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
None of this is verified BTW, it's second hand info from B&C forum but I personally believe it all. The FLG guys have said that the Iron Hands supplement is one of the strongest.

- The Iron Father gives units within 6 inches of him a 5+ invulnerable save.


Oh sure, the marines get a 6" 5+ invul bubble, but necrons have to make do with a 3" bubble that doesn't even work in close combat.
Goddammit GW


Deredeo dreadnoughts had that ability since the start of 8th edition, just FYI.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubric Marines at least can avoid a point of AP basically on all the Rapid Fire weapons? I dunno.


Regular csm will hate it more, especially when tacs show up.

Seeing that the Chaos Marine entry should've been deleted a long time ago, I don't care too much.

Well Considering for the future aslong as 8the runs you are stradled with them and a worse Version at higher cost then yeah sure.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

It's got 20 hitting on 5+, Re-roll 1's autocannons in overwatch can your rhino survive?

I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of the codex but I see people calling for unit nerfs when it's only 1 chapter that makes it this disgusting.

It's also funny that they are one of the best chapters for any fly vehicals too.
Are they so well known for their landspeeders and flyers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 09:48:09


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Ice_can wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

It's got 20 hitting on 5+, Re-roll 1's autocannons in overwatch can your rhino survive?

I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of the codex but I see people calling for unit nerfs when it's only 1 chapter that makes it this disgusting.

It's also funny that they are one of the best chapters for any fly vehicals too.
Are they so well known for their landspeeders and flyers?


By my math the Rhino survives

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but Imo vehicle-heavy armies tend to have some major drawbacks. It'll certainly make for a couple nasty units, but I think there will be enough ability to counter the army as a whole. I mean, not long ago I was building armies to go against 3++ 28W Knights anyways. I feel like the tools to deal with IH are lying around.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

It's got 20 hitting on 5+, Re-roll 1's autocannons in overwatch can your rhino survive?

I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of the codex but I see people calling for unit nerfs when it's only 1 chapter that makes it this disgusting.

It's also funny that they are one of the best chapters for any fly vehicals too.
Are they so well known for their landspeeders and flyers?


By my math the Rhino survives

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but Imo vehicle-heavy armies tend to have some major drawbacks. It'll certainly make for a couple nasty units, but I think there will be enough ability to counter the army as a whole. I mean, not long ago I was building armies to go against 3++ 28W Knights anyways. I feel like the tools to deal with IH are lying around.

I agree though after combat it's very close to dead hot dice or a smite or two could be enough to have it shooting next turn.

I don't think it's a game breaking problem, I'm more worried that GW do a true GW and jack the cost of the units for a stack that only ironhands players can play.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.


Easier play, drive a rhino into the techmarine three inches from it hauling the uber-relic, and powerslide on the pile-in.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW gonna GW.

Honestly it baffles me that they've managed to put the less exciting spoiler second when any sensible person should realize you put WS or RG before UM or IH to ramp up the hype instead of spiking the hype and then letting it dribble away prior to the actual release. It's almost like they have no idea what the players will get excited about.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Newman wrote:
GW gonna GW.

Honestly it baffles me that they've managed to put the less exciting spoiler second when any sensible person should realize you put WS or RG before UM or IH to ramp up the hype instead of spiking the hype and then letting it dribble away prior to the actual release. It's almost like they have no idea what the players will get excited about.

Actually stopping and thinking about it I would be a great buff if knights were still meta defining, disco lords and Thousand Sons supreme commands get nerfed by this but knights are already dropping off.

They're pitching it in the context of the meta of about the last FAQ.
   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




The Newman wrote:
GW gonna GW.

Honestly it baffles me that they've managed to put the less exciting spoiler second when any sensible person should realize you put WS or RG before UM or IH to ramp up the hype instead of spiking the hype and then letting it dribble away prior to the actual release. It's almost like they have no idea what the players will get excited about.


Personally I'm more excited about RG than IH because it fits my custom chapter so much better (I'll be having the RG and WS supplements and play them with whatever rules I feel like at the moment). My dudes are feral hunters and assassins in power armor, not half-machines. I'mma have lots of fun sniping other peoples' Mary Sues Anyway, GW don't tease stuff in order of power level, that should be quite well known at this point. And as is also well known, Dakkadakka seems to think that everyone is a competitive tournament player, which is actually far from the case.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





People are excited for differant things, I suspect GW has an idea on chapter popularity better then we do. especially as they likely have long term indicators of popularity. IMHO an exciting inital release and an exciting final release are the important factors and I'd be willing to bet, long term the Scions and Gulliman and the Sons of Dorn are proably the most popular subfactions.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I guess I can see it from a Marketing perspective. I'm not a tournament player, but I would still have been more excited about the WS/RG previews if I hadn't had the much more exciting UM/IH previews right before them, but I also wouldn't have given them any further thought at all once the UM/IH previews dropped. As-is the WS/RG are still on my mind. Mostly for the 'wtf' factor, but at least I'm still thinking about them.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The Newman wrote:
GW gonna GW.

Honestly it baffles me that they've managed to put the less exciting spoiler second when any sensible person should realize you put WS or RG before UM or IH to ramp up the hype instead of spiking the hype and then letting it dribble away prior to the actual release. It's almost like they have no idea what the players will get excited about.


Or people are over blowing it, because they don't have all the rules from the books and can't see the full picture. And GW's goal is to excite people for each faction. People who play RG are still going to play RG. WS will still play WS. Meta chasers will play IH until they take a nerf, if necessary.

...it's almost as if this has happened before...huh...dejavu, I guess.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Iron hands look great so far, very tempted to pick up the supplement and run my marines as iron hands for now as I run 2 repulsors and 2 dreads in my list which would hugely benefit from the doctrine and also the FNP on them which is brilliant.

I have a relic contemptor dread with 4 lascannons who will sit in cover next to the executioner and stalker bolt rifle squad and just pump out fire and let the other half of my force roll forward and engage at medium range where we are most deadly.
   
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Norn Queen






This Codex Cycle in a Nutshell
Spoiler:
It's almost good enough to make Marines viable again. Almost.

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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

It's got 20 hitting on 5+, Re-roll 1's autocannons in overwatch can your rhino survive?

I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of the codex but I see people calling for unit nerfs when it's only 1 chapter that makes it this disgusting.

It's also funny that they are one of the best chapters for any fly vehicals too.
Are they so well known for their landspeeders and flyers?


By my math the Rhino survives

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but Imo vehicle-heavy armies tend to have some major drawbacks. It'll certainly make for a couple nasty units, but I think there will be enough ability to counter the army as a whole. I mean, not long ago I was building armies to go against 3++ 28W Knights anyways. I feel like the tools to deal with IH are lying around.

With rerolls its dead. 50% hit. 50% wound with reroll 1's you'll get 6 wounds. AP-3 in dev doct. So you take 10 wounds making one 6+ save. Then 7 heavy flamer shots 3 wounds at AP -2. Probably take 12 wounds or more. So more than half the time it kills a rhino in overwatch. Plus it would still need to survive a round of combat. And I think we've seen a stratagem it can fall back and shoot on for 2 CP.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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I never go Heavy Flamers for the Levi. Heavy Bolters mesh better with the preferred range unless you're going melee.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.


6+ fnp has been around since thr beginning of 8th(well, lots longer and with better rolls previously); it is pretty good, but not really fame breaking. As you showed: ups the survivability by 2 wounds in this case.

Half damage strat is only for the phase(or maybe turn) that the strat is popped; and only going to effect multi-damage wounds(effectively doubling the shots required for the same damage that phase). This costs CPs, and isn't as borken as you might think.

The real gem is the character sitting behind it with an iron stone, -1 damage all the time for no CP cost.but all this really does on some cases is remove desire to supercharge the guns that potentially explode and keep heavy bolters as kings of anti-tank scratch damage(or any multi-shot S5-6 AP -1 1D weapons)

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I never go Heavy Flamers for the Levi. Heavy Bolters mesh better with the preferred range unless you're going melee.

I don't believe you have a choice or I am doing something wrong.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:

With rerolls its dead. 50% hit. 50% wound with reroll 1's you'll get 6 wounds. AP-3 in dev doct. So you take 10 wounds making one 6+ save. Then 7 heavy flamer shots 3 wounds at AP -2. Probably take 12 wounds or more. So more than half the time it kills a rhino in overwatch. Plus it would still need to survive a round of combat. And I think we've seen a stratagem it can fall back and shoot on for 2 CP.



Eh?

20 * .388 * .5 * .833 * 2 = 6.5
7 * .333 * .5 = 1.2

It's possible to kill the rhino, but average seems to leave it on 2 wounds. Not the safest thing ever obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I never go Heavy Flamers for the Levi. Heavy Bolters mesh better with the preferred range unless you're going melee.

I don't believe you have a choice or I am doing something wrong.


No HBs for Levi - maybe the chaos one?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 15:10:44


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