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Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Tyel wrote:
It may be negative, but it is hard to see how the Lord of Change is much (if any) better than a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince, who even after the respective price changes, is 55-65 points cheaper.


Pretty much any named character psyker is a better psyker than a LoC and costs 1/2 as much or less.

The daemon Prince is far better for the simple fact that he gets 18 powers to choose from plus his Cult power as a bonus.

Personally I blame the upsizing, which worked out good for GUOs and Bloodthirsters but not for LoCs. Theyve always kind of been the weedier, support greater daemons, and 8th eds psychic power system just doesnt scale well, because it's a success/fail roll, and they decided all psychic powers had to deal MWs rather than just being a regular attack method.

Since most psykers are just a different flavor of support hq that works fine most of the time, but it means there's not really such a thing as "big impressive magic" because then your little weeny herald would have the same spell, and if you had some kind of magic fire spell that would allow a LoC to sweep away a squad of puny guardsmen, he could also oneshot a custode squad with the same spell.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

They need to create a "Greater Lore of X" which is only available to specific units in the Daemons list (Greater Daemons and unique variants of, basically).

In there you can put a load of ultra powerful spells befitting what should be the most powerful psykers in the game.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I mean, they managed to make Magnus a super psyker with just 3 casts per turn.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
They need to create a "Greater Lore of X" which is only available to specific units in the Daemons list (Greater Daemons and unique variants of, basically).

In there you can put a load of ultra powerful spells befitting what should be the most powerful psykers in the game.


I like this idea, another way to rework spells would be to give psykers a stat to influence the likelihood and/or strength of a psychic power rather than the current system of everyone rolls against the same fixed value to cast. This way a powerful psyker would be more likely to succeed with a strong spell whereas a weaker psyker would still be able to attempt the power, but chances of success would be less.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Galas wrote:
I mean, they managed to make Magnus a super psyker with just 3 casts per turn.


Heres a little exercise.

Let's take a rougly 120 point unit that does shooting. Lets say a basilisk.

Compare its damage output in shooting to a 450 point shooting unit, let's say a Shadowsword.

And now compare a 120 point psyker unit like Tigurius with Magnus

It feels to me, like the distinction between a heavy D6, S9 AP-3 DD3 gun and a Heavy 3D3, S12, AP-5 D2D6 gun is more meaningful than the difference between 2 casts, 2 denies, 3 powers, +1 to cast with a reroll, and 3 casts, 3 denies, 3 powers, +2 to cast with no reroll and a D6 damage smite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aash wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
They need to create a "Greater Lore of X" which is only available to specific units in the Daemons list (Greater Daemons and unique variants of, basically).

In there you can put a load of ultra powerful spells befitting what should be the most powerful psykers in the game.


I like this idea, another way to rework spells would be to give psykers a stat to influence the likelihood and/or strength of a psychic power rather than the current system of everyone rolls against the same fixed value to cast. This way a powerful psyker would be more likely to succeed with a strong spell whereas a weaker psyker would still be able to attempt the power, but chances of success would be less.


That would be a universal rule, and that would be heresy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 13:29:27


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Personally I blame the upsizing, which worked out good for GUOs and Bloodthirsters but not for LoCs. Theyve always kind of been the weedier, support greater daemons, and 8th eds psychic power system just doesnt scale well, because it's a success/fail roll, and they decided all psychic powers had to deal MWs rather than just being a regular attack method.

Since most psykers are just a different flavor of support hq that works fine most of the time, but it means there's not really such a thing as "big impressive magic" because then your little weeny herald would have the same spell, and if you had some kind of magic fire spell that would allow a LoC to sweep away a squad of puny guardsmen, he could also oneshot a custode squad with the same spell.


I think you could mess around with "big impressive magic" by having more spells that have special effects on say an 11/12+ to cast. You then play around with the odds to take into account a herald could roll a double six - but they take a perils (however you choose to deal with it) and it isn't going to happen very often. Whereas with +2 or more to cast, you are going to get this happening fairly frequently.

You could have the Rod of Sorcery give an extra 12" not just to smite, but to all spells, so the LoC could throw out say infernal gateway a reasonable distance.
For 250 points you should also really get 3 spells (if not 4), rather than just two - but while it gets into the "we only have 6 spells" problem, it would go someway to creating a master of magic. Especially if they added more spells to pick from.

I agree the LoC shouldn't be stepping on assault toes - but if you can't buff the magic, he shouldn't do less than half the damage of a KoS who is also a 2 cast psyker and quite a bit cheaper.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





A fairly easy fix would be to give all the tzeentch powers "crit" effects, and allow Lords of Change to ignore the Psychic Focus rule. Then youd be fine with just 6 powers.

Obviously id rather see GW give them a whole distinct greater daemon psychic list, but they only have so much creative energy and they had to come up with ideas for the Ultramancy Discipline and Iron Handsomancy.

How would iron hands players feel like they were achieving that real fluff fantasy if they didnt have the vaunted psychic mastery the iron hands have always been known for?
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






I agree that Daemons should have more ranged units and some of those should be primarily shooting, with very little melee and not primarily melee with a little bit of shooting or 50/50 split like the Soul Grinder is.

I don't like Soul Grinders, I think the half-machine half-daemon aesthetic is out of place, something that'd fit in if it was the standard, but it seems more like a possessed version of the CSM Defiler, same as a possessed Marine which is a CSM unit, so why is a possessed Defiler a CSD unit? The lore in the 8th ed codex doesn't justify it very well IMO. I wish that either everything that wasn't wholly Daemonic became a CSM unit (so just Soul Grinder) or Possessed became CSD and GW expanded CSD to include more such possessed models, like a Possessed AM Hellhounds or something.

I think it'd be nice if CSD had a number of units like the Mutalith Vortex Beast, weaponizing the power of the warp in ways other than psychic powers. That would also mean fewer of the boring Daemons in lists and more interesting stuff, right now their psychic powers are the only thing which sets Daemons apart from every other army. With a bit of warp enhancement you could also have medieval weapons be terrifying like what the Thousand Sons goats on discs have. Hopefully, Psychic Awakening makes Daemons more interesting.

If Tzeentch doesn't get more powers I think they should ignore the Smite spam nerf on some or all their units. An idea I had for more Tzeentch psychic powers:
Spoiler:

The DAEMON faction keyword should be replaced with the NEVERBORN faction keyword and they should all get the DAEMON unit keyword. All NEVERBORN TZEENTCH PSYKERS may know up to one power from the Soul Blaze discipline in addition to any other psychic powers they know. Roll 1d6 at the end of each turn for each unit with 1+ Soul Blaze tokens, on a 4+ the unit suffers a mortal wound, on a roll of 1-5 you remove 1 Soul Blaze token.

Soul Blaze/Rainbow Discipline
Red Fire assumed to be Smite.

Orange Fire of Transition (Warp Charge 5+)
If manifested apply 1 Soul Blaze token to each enemy unit within 1" of the psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase re-roll up to one hit roll, wound roll and/or damage roll each time the psyker's unit attacks.

Yellow Fire of Transformation (Warp Charge 5+)
If manifested, pick a friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON unit within 18" of the psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, the target has a 5+ invulnerable save and each time it passes a saving throw against a melee attack apply one Soul Blaze token to the attacking unit.

Green Fire of Mutation (Warp Charge 6+)
If manifested, pick an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. Roll a D6 for each model in the unit, apply 1 Soul Blaze token to the target for each roll 6+.

Blue Fire of Metamorphosis (Warp Charge 4+)
If manifested, pick an enemy unit within 24" and visible to the caster, apply 1 Soul Blaze token to the target. You cannot pick an enemy CHARACTER with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 unless no enemy units other than CHARACTERS with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 is closer to the psyker.

Indigo Fire of Change (Warp Charge 5+)
If manifested, the psyker can immediately attempt to summon a unit of Horrors to the battlefield using the Daemonic Ritual ability as if it were the Movement phase. The psyker will not suffer any mortal wounds as a result of doubles or triples being rolled for this Daemonic Ritual. If you roll a triple for this Daemonic Ritual apply D3 Soul Blaze tokens to the closest visible enemy unit within 18" of the summoned Horrors.

Violet Fire of Tzeentch (Warp Charge 6+)
If manifested, pick an enemy unit within 18", apply D3 Soul Blaze tokens to the target.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 14:17:26


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Those powers are incredibly bad. I appreciate the restraint, but an average of 1 MW per round if you have two Soul Blaze Tokens on a unit is... Not good.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






 JNAProductions wrote:
Those powers are incredibly bad. I appreciate the restraint, but an average of 1 MW per round if you have two Soul Blaze Tokens on a unit is... Not good.

It's even worse, it's 0,5 mortal wounds regardless of how many counters are on the unit. I didn't do enough math on this and never playtested it so I agree it's too restrained. The basic idea is that I think Tzeentch Daemons should have more powers and a focus on damage and fire would be neat. Numbers would be pretty easy to change, take it from 4+ to deal damage and 6+ to continue to 3+ or even 2+ to deal damage and/or 5+ or 4+ to continue and the whole discipline becomes a lot stronger. You could also play around with WC values to make it fair.

Edit: it's per turn so I guess it is 1 per round.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/22 14:38:10


 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 vict0988 wrote:
...The basic idea is that I think Tzeentch Daemons should have more powers and a focus on damage and fire would be neat...


I disagree. The "psychic phase" is trying to simulate too many things right now; the Rule of One exists to push big fancy individuals casting single game-changing powers, and it feels bizarre to play an army of all psykers (Tzeentch Daemons, GK, Thousand Sons) when the psychic phase is set up to make taking more psykers worse than taking a few psykers. I'd rather see more effects that are fluffwise "psychic" but rules-wise are just passive special rules or ranged weapons, like 4e Warlock powers. Or like how the 30k Ruinstorm Daemons have a bunch of different sorts of ranged attacks that aren't attached to having specific models built with guns.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in au
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult






Brisbane, Australia

It's not like Daemons had any actual psychic powers anyway before the last (6th ed) codex. They had Gifts instead that didn't require a psychic test even if they had the same name and function of psychic powers available to Chaos Space Marines (oh old Pavane of Slaanesh how I miss thee)

Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






 AnomanderRake wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
...The basic idea is that I think Tzeentch Daemons should have more powers and a focus on damage and fire would be neat...


I disagree. The "psychic phase" is trying to simulate too many things right now; the Rule of One exists to push big fancy individuals casting single game-changing powers, and it feels bizarre to play an army of all psykers (Tzeentch Daemons, GK, Thousand Sons) when the psychic phase is set up to make taking more psykers worse than taking a few psykers. I'd rather see more effects that are fluffwise "psychic" but rules-wise are just passive special rules or ranged weapons, like 4e Warlock powers. Or like how the 30k Ruinstorm Daemons have a bunch of different sorts of ranged attacks that aren't attached to having specific models built with guns.

Tzeentch is the god of sorcery, I think there should be a lot of psychic tests and denials going on when a Tzeentch Daemon army hits the field. I also think there should be units both for Tzeentch and other units which have abilities that aren't psychic powers, but IMO Tzeentch Horrors and Heralds should be able to do psychic powers and not just have abilities. It's random and I think it's supposed to be, I liked the warpstorm table except for the fact where it took 2-5 minutes and the impact was too large sometimes. I made a CSD fandex for 7th which had a table with 6 results instead of 10, the table was also structured to be easy to remember with 1 and 6 lowering/increasing saves for one unit and 2-5 dealing damage and them being ordered according to the order of the Chaos Pantheon (Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh) so that you can remember the table after a game or two. Between all the games my buddy played with 7th ed CSD he never remembered the official table, 10 is too many results and there wasn't much rhyme or reason to the table (I know it's Chaos but looking things up in tables isn't any more Chaos than having a bit of structure so you can remember from memory).
   
 
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