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Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





Karol wrote:
Games aren't simulations, but a bunch of heavy bolters shouldn't be better then a single lascanons in points vs tanks.
The whole D6 or D3 dmg for anti tank weapons was, in my opinion, a huge mistake. Weapons like multi meltas, lascanons should do flat damge. If a MM did 6 dmg and double or 9 at half range it would start being a formidable anti tank weapon. d3 or d6 dmg should be limited to luck or multi shot weapons, to represent a projectile doing a lucky shot . d3 damage on an assault canon or a hvy bolter make sense.

the more jack of all trades weapons like auto cannons or rocket launchers could have flat dmg too only on the lower end of the dmg spectrum. I think that would be much better for the game.


Hard agree, Meltaguns being my only anti-tank infantry weapon in my army definately needs buffs. I've been towing around with the idea of meltaguns having a high flat damage that decays with range like every 3 or 6 inches for melta/multi-meltas so at max range its not going to do much damage but get in close its going to shred vehicles but that would probalby be needlessly complex and lead to too many arguments over a MM difference.

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.
Because shooting sure needed the buff, right?

Make it 3 and 6, for max and half range. And if Melta is still not taken, then nerf things like Lascannons till everything is an option.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sherrypie wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

It being added isnt the issue, it's toughness really doesn't matter as much as they changed the wounding chart but not Toughness values T tops at 10 on a Warlord Titan FFS.


A Warlord titan has T 16, but please carry on

Sorry your correct it's T10 for a reaver but that's still pretty pathetic you have to admit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.
Because shooting sure needed the buff, right?

Make it 3 and 6, for max and half range. And if Melta is still not taken, then nerf things like Lascannons till everything is an option.

You can nerf lascannons all yoy like but not shure what your hoping to achieve as it's not like they are taken that often anyway.
It is uaually autocannons etc that I see played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/21 15:12:05


 
   
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Because the -1AP on autocannons is always useful and they can potentially klll 2 primaris, whereas lascannons are getting into invuln land with -3 AP and can only ever kill 1 primaris. And cost a lot more.
   
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In My Lab

The point is, it's a shooting game, and it should be more balanced. The overall power of shooting should go down-and a 12 damage Melta is NOT that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/21 17:11:39


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






I'd rather see Multimeltas get Blast like they did in the old days.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in it
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Ice_can wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
Please don't bring realism into this. In reality a few dudes could run up to a tank, climb on top of it, and start throwing grenades into every nook and cranny.

Game - wise, if small arms fire didn't have a chance to hurt heavy armor, any time you bring lots of infantry VS a knights list you would just scoop.

The issue was never small arms fire broadly. The issue was always marines. They can stack so many rerolls and bonuses to hitting and wounding and damage that their bolters turn into anti tank weapons.

It feels like most problems with the game often boil down to "marines push this to a broken level".

Marines take it to a broken level yes but to stick with Guard

A Russ with a Vanquisher Cannon
Does on avarage 3.5 wounds after saves against a T7 3+ save vehical, the maths goes more in the Punishers favour vrs T8 the wounding system is broken before we even go near marines.



The vanquisher cannon is really bad at that job, and yet the punisher is even worse at it (3,35 wounds at any T6+ 3+ target rerolls included, your previous math is wrong). I don't see a problem with the punisher AT capabilities.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
Please don't bring realism into this. In reality a few dudes could run up to a tank, climb on top of it, and start throwing grenades into every nook and cranny.

Game - wise, if small arms fire didn't have a chance to hurt heavy armor, any time you bring lots of infantry VS a knights list you would just scoop.

The issue was never small arms fire broadly. The issue was always marines. They can stack so many rerolls and bonuses to hitting and wounding and damage that their bolters turn into anti tank weapons.

It feels like most problems with the game often boil down to "marines push this to a broken level".

Marines take it to a broken level yes but to stick with Guard

A Russ with a Vanquisher Cannon
Does on avarage 3.5 wounds after saves against a T7 3+ save vehical, the maths goes more in the Punishers favour vrs T8 the wounding system is broken before we even go near marines.



The vanquisher cannon is really bad at that job, and yet the punisher is even worse at it (3,35 wounds at any T6+ 3+ target rerolls included, your previous math is wrong). I don't see a problem with the punisher AT capabilities.

Will have to where the -1 AP comes from next time I am playing that guard player then.

But the fact that it's drawing level is rediculous it shouldn't even be viable to shoot a dedicated anti infantry weapon at a tank and achieve the same or better results than anti armour weapons. It should be a last resort as shooting a vanquisher/lascannon at infantry shure isnt equally as effective.

Whats worse about this is Guard atleast got free double shooting on their weapons everyone else'sstill suck.

Because it's way to cramped a design space if it wasnt wounding everything upto T10 on a 1in 3 chance it would be a lot less objectionable.
   
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RoF is king in 8th. Single shot weapons turn everyone into orks due to how swingy they are.
   
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Italy

Martel732 wrote:
RoF is king in 8th. Single shot weapons turn everyone into orks due to how swingy they are.


I agree, what kills the game is RoF. Re-rolls, shooting twice abilities, easy AP buffs... they all contribute to break the game.

I'd love single weapons like lascannons and meltaguns to be more effective, but not in the actual context where shooting gets too many buffs. One of the things I like about 8th is that vehicles can't be instant killed anymore like the paper boxes they used to be. If superbuffed low-mid strenght weapons get nerfed a lot (I mean like they should lose 60-70% of their killyness) then I'd really like some single shot or blasts/templates weapons like flamers to become more deadly.

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Vehicles should be instakilled by the appropriate weapons. That's the whole point of an AT gun.

This can't be resolved with invulns in the game, though.
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
Vehicles should be instakilled by the appropriate weapons. That's the whole point of an AT gun.

This can't be resolved with invulns in the game, though.
So shouldn't Sniper weapons instakill characters? That's the whole point of sniper weaponry, after all.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.


All I'm hearing is 'don't bring vehicles EVER because meltaguns have a guaranteed instapop on anything rhino chassis or lower'. Unless you want a trooper with a meltagun to cost 150 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Vehicles should be instakilled by the appropriate weapons. That's the whole point of an AT gun.

This can't be resolved with invulns in the game, though.


This was how it was in 7th edition and it was f***ing stupid. All it means is that you never take vehicles because they end up popping like balloons. This is a bad idea and you should feel bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/21 19:13:38


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
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ERJAK wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.


All I'm hearing is 'don't bring vehicles EVER because meltaguns have a guaranteed instapop on anything rhino chassis or lower'. Unless you want a trooper with a meltagun to cost 150 points.

Yes the balance is off but the concept does have some legs in the concept of Making a Melta Flat Damage 3/4 and remove the wound melarky and just make them do double damage in melta range. Would also help fix a lot of issues with Lascannons etc. If a lascannon was flat 5 or 6 damage pointing them at centurions bikers etc would be definataly worthwhile.
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Ice_can wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.


All I'm hearing is 'don't bring vehicles EVER because meltaguns have a guaranteed instapop on anything rhino chassis or lower'. Unless you want a trooper with a meltagun to cost 150 points.

Yes the balance is off but the concept does have some legs in the concept of Making a Melta Flat Damage 3/4 and remove the wound melarky and just make them do double damage in melta range. Would also help fix a lot of issues with Lascannons etc. If a lascannon was flat 5 or 6 damage pointing them at centurions bikers etc would be definataly worthwhile.
So how much deadlier should melee get, then?

Because your'e significantly upping the lethality of shooting.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




ERJAK wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.


All I'm hearing is 'don't bring vehicles EVER because meltaguns have a guaranteed instapop on anything rhino chassis or lower'. Unless you want a trooper with a meltagun to cost 150 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Vehicles should be instakilled by the appropriate weapons. That's the whole point of an AT gun.

This can't be resolved with invulns in the game, though.


This was how it was in 7th edition and it was f***ing stupid. All it means is that you never take vehicles because they end up popping like balloons. This is a bad idea and you should feel bad.


It's not a bad idea. GW just sucks at math.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.


All I'm hearing is 'don't bring vehicles EVER because meltaguns have a guaranteed instapop on anything rhino chassis or lower'. Unless you want a trooper with a meltagun to cost 150 points.

Yes the balance is off but the concept does have some legs in the concept of Making a Melta Flat Damage 3/4 and remove the wound melarky and just make them do double damage in melta range. Would also help fix a lot of issues with Lascannons etc. If a lascannon was flat 5 or 6 damage pointing them at centurions bikers etc would be definataly worthwhile.
So how much deadlier should melee get, then?

Because your'e significantly upping the lethality of shooting.

Not actually changing most of it as single shot weapons never see play as they aren't reliable enough due to the multiple points of single failure.
Don't see why you think this is a nerf against meleee especially not against infantry melee.
   
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In My Lab

Ice_can wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well that is an intersting idea. Would both entice the getting close part of melta weapons, make melta guns and multi melta real options that both have good sides.

Maybe just make it half damge. MM does 12 at 12" and 6 over 12". Meltaguns do 12 at 6" and 6 at over 6". And inferno pistols would do flat damage all the time.


All I'm hearing is 'don't bring vehicles EVER because meltaguns have a guaranteed instapop on anything rhino chassis or lower'. Unless you want a trooper with a meltagun to cost 150 points.

Yes the balance is off but the concept does have some legs in the concept of Making a Melta Flat Damage 3/4 and remove the wound melarky and just make them do double damage in melta range. Would also help fix a lot of issues with Lascannons etc. If a lascannon was flat 5 or 6 damage pointing them at centurions bikers etc would be definataly worthwhile.
So how much deadlier should melee get, then?

Because your'e significantly upping the lethality of shooting.

Not actually changing most of it as single shot weapons never see play as they aren't reliable enough due to the multiple points of single failure.
Don't see why you think this is a nerf against meleee especially not against infantry melee.
It's an upping of shooting's lethality. If you buff the unused guns to make them more powerful, shooting gets stronger. And it's already a shooting game over a mixed one.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Remove the dang rerolls for days to reduce the lethality of shooting.

But having armies whole anti tank ability be non functional for 2 entire editions just because no-one took a step back to re-examin the issue isn't helping, it leads to more of the buckets of dice with bad odds are better than anti tank weapons with to much swing.
   
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This is compounded by the fact that GW doesn't understand that the FIRST point of AP is the most valuable, not going from -3 to -4
   
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British Columbia

Or just use your keyword system and have any weapon without the correct keyword be unable to wound Vehicle/Monster on better than a 6+.

One size fits all weapons are stupid and needing low shot high impact weapons to combat heavies eases the strain on lighter units that the "more mid strength bullets works against everything" weapons are causing.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
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Single shot weapons are:

a) unreliable because of die roll variance

b) paying for AP they frequently don't get to use

These are two separate issues, and just throwing on more rerolls just makes the high ROF weapons pull ahead further.
   
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Halifax

The AI/AT/AA system from Epic Armageddon worked great.

   
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Martel732 wrote:


It's not a bad idea. GW just sucks at math.


Well, feel free to prove your idea with some math and points.

   
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As soon as they pay me. Also, I don't need to prove it. It's how AT guns work in real life. Sometimes they get a one shot knockout.
   
Made in us
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Martel732 wrote:
As soon as they pay me. Also, I don't need to prove it. It's how AT guns work in real life. Sometimes they get a one shot knockout.


An that would inherently disincentive vehicles. Unless you can prove otherwise your idea is just...not valid.

   
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So reality is not valid? Okay, there's no real comeback to that.

Just because the Germans had 88s, that didn't discourage allied vehicle production.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/21 20:39:19


 
   
Made in it
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Italy

Martel732 wrote:
Single shot weapons are:

a) unreliable because of die roll variance

b) paying for AP they frequently don't get to use

These are two separate issues, and just throwing on more rerolls just makes the high ROF weapons pull ahead further.


IMHO these aren't drawbacks, it's how things should be in a dice game. It's the access to cheap/free and spammable mid strength mid AP weapons with high rate of fire that makes them unworthy, and that is what should be limited.

Single shot weapons aren't even bad, I play with lascanons and missile launchers but they are ouclassed by some insanity that allows basic troops to bypass the rapid fire limit, while getting a free AP-2 on a solid plarform and re-rolling everything or a 6 man elite squad with a points cost of 200 points to throw 140 dice with high accuracy, and example like these. I simply refuse to play primaris because they're broken and wrong on any possible level.

With orks single shot weapons are fine. Smasha gunz, KMK and traktors are all solid, rokkits and KMB are also fine. Big mek's SAG is gold, and it basically deals the damage of 1-2 lascannons. Even the crappy gunwagon if upgraded with its kustom job becomes a solid option. Most of these weapons are D3 or D6 and not single shot but with ork BS they aren't any different than an imperium unit firing a few powerful but more accurate shots. Ork anti tank options are fairly balanced because access to cheap high rate of fire mid S and mid AP weapons is very limited.

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Why the bloody hell are we bringing real life into a game with chainsaw swords and magical demon wizards.
   
 
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