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Made in gb
Executing Exarch






stratigo wrote:
 Argive wrote:
stratigo wrote:
I will wait until I see what is core and not in a marine codex compared to other army codexes.

If all marine infantry is core, but only eldar troop choices get to be, that'd be a bummer.


I would imagine all troops choices and transports will be Core for most factions as a base line.
But then I fear a circuimvention next year I.e. If you take character/trait X All units X now have the core keyword.

For example Iyanden could well have wraiths as core if yriel leads them or something..

To be fair guardians (or anything) not gaining core means diddly squat to us. Nobody really used the Autarch since EC(outside of a rush beat-stick). And people used him rarely even before and not primarily for the aura. Pretty sure hes the only aura we have(outside of avatar) so it doesn't really matter. Other stuff is keyword dependant anyway already. We need a ground up re-workd for our codex anyhow so none of this really applies to CWE I think unless they choose to FAQ Doom/guide for reasons in which case its just another nerf so nothing new.


I am pre supposing that doom and guide and other such powers will benefit core in the future eldar codex.

I also don't think anyone is going to have their auras and powers change in an FAQ, this will all be based purely on rolling books. It's less a problem than having a ton of the same equipment do different things, and note they are only faqing equipment marines use and not literally any other equipment being left in the dust by the overall weapon buff, which will probably see a bunch of weapons buffed as we get new codexes


Runes of Battle can predominantly affect infantry and bikers anyway so that will be mostly core stuff looks like.
Not sure I can see doom staying as current doom*(even for core) if the plan is to curb re-rolls. It would make sense but who knows at this point.. Will see. Maybe we will get a stratagem or two and some relics :p haha

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 01:26:16


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 H.B.M.C. wrote:


GW are also terrible at the execution of said great concepts, so this may end up being fething awful for the game, no matter how good it looks "on paper".



Agreed in concept if not in words. Everyone is already moving to Eradicators. If they're still in it does nothing unless there's some other piece we're missing.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I didn't call you a breathless white knight, but more that whenever people bring up the "Dakka Bingo Card" it is almost always an attack on those who aren't immediately brimming with supreme happiness at whatever GW has done this week.

As for "everyone" moving to Eradicators, I think this may be overblown.

 Argive wrote:
Potatos patats..
Hardly. Linking army special rules and structure to special characters is something they did several editions ago, and it was awful.

And you're really against different factions granting CORE to units that are intrinsic to their playstyle?

Iyanden giving CORE to Wraith constructs (not the Wraithknight obviously), or a Hemonculus Coven (or whatever they're called) giving CORE to Grotesques, or a Ravenguard army getting CORE on Land Speeders don't seem like bad ideas to me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 01:30:55


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't call you a breathless white knight


Grumpy gakhole is acceptable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 01:39:27


   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't call you a breathless white knight, but more that whenever people bring up the "Dakka Bingo Card" it is almost always an attack on those who aren't immediately brimming with supreme happiness at whatever GW has done this week.

As for "everyone" moving to Eradicators, I think this may be overblown.

 Argive wrote:
Potatos patats..
Hardly. Linking army special rules and structure to special characters is something they did several editions ago, and it was awful.

And you're really against different factions granting CORE to units that are intrinsic to their playstyle?

Iyanden giving CORE to Wraith constructs (not the Wraithknight obviously), or a Hemonculus Coven (or whatever they're called) giving CORE to Grotesques, or a Ravenguard army getting CORE on Land Speeders don't seem like bad ideas to me.



this is how it should be, each faction has a specific way of warfighting and the lists/traits/abilities should reflect that. wait doesnt that kinda sound like Rites of War in 30k?
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Racerguy180 wrote:
Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't call you a breathless white knight, but more that whenever people bring up the "Dakka Bingo Card" it is almost always an attack on those who aren't immediately brimming with supreme happiness at whatever GW has done this week.

As for "everyone" moving to Eradicators, I think this may be overblown.

 Argive wrote:
Potatos patats..
Hardly. Linking army special rules and structure to special characters is something they did several editions ago, and it was awful.

And you're really against different factions granting CORE to units that are intrinsic to their playstyle?

Iyanden giving CORE to Wraith constructs (not the Wraithknight obviously), or a Hemonculus Coven (or whatever they're called) giving CORE to Grotesques, or a Ravenguard army getting CORE on Land Speeders don't seem like bad ideas to me.



this is how it should be, each faction has a specific way of warfighting and the lists/traits/abilities should reflect that. wait doesnt that kinda sound like Rites of War in 30k?

Yes, and we should be so lucky.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Racerguy180 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't call you a breathless white knight, but more that whenever people bring up the "Dakka Bingo Card" it is almost always an attack on those who aren't immediately brimming with supreme happiness at whatever GW has done this week.

As for "everyone" moving to Eradicators, I think this may be overblown.

 Argive wrote:
Potatos patats..
Hardly. Linking army special rules and structure to special characters is something they did several editions ago, and it was awful.

And you're really against different factions granting CORE to units that are intrinsic to their playstyle?

Iyanden giving CORE to Wraith constructs (not the Wraithknight obviously), or a Hemonculus Coven (or whatever they're called) giving CORE to Grotesques, or a Ravenguard army getting CORE on Land Speeders don't seem like bad ideas to me.



this is how it should be, each faction has a specific way of warfighting and the lists/traits/abilities should reflect that. wait doesn't that kinda sound like Rites of War in 30k?


Not a 30k player so you will have to elaborate

But generally speaking I get where you guys are coming from.. But im not sure I'm sold on this becase there's a lot riding in execution and implementation from GW (Ha...) so no idea really as we just don't have the information currently. I don't want to be back in the position where as a player you end up running the same trait/army list because if you don't you are handicapping yourself. Iyanden should synergise with wraiths but not the point where you just wouldn't take wraiths otherwise. Army composition shenanigans just don't sit well with me in a game in which list writing is probably the most vital part..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 02:01:59


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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The more I think about it the more I like the idea of Captains/CMs and LTs no longer being "just what you do". Or not regretting your lord being out of range of Obliterators. It may even allow GW to redo Exalted Sorcerers to give them an ability more arcane than just simply reroll 1s.

Marines also have a ton of spells that almost no one uses. Techmarines barely see time, too. Getting them on the table seems like it could make for more variety (ultimately the competitive lists will probably settle into one particular dynamic).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh man...if Hellblasters are not CORE...characters with plasma beware as well. So many implications.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 03:05:09


   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




My biggest concern with this new core keyword ruleset is how will it affect auras that impact mobility such as Warboss Waaagh! or the Locus of Slaanesh. If these characters are not affected by their own auras it means they can easily fall behind their troops and become completely exposed to get units into melee.




 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I wonder if they'll make the Techmarine's ability "Core only" by accident, meaning he can't repair anything.


A Captain cannot benefit from an Lt, but the Lt should be able to benefit from the Captain. So should the Chap/Libby/Techmarine/etc., right?

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Ghaz wrote:
Am I the only one expecting a "Core if" mechanic (e.g., Necron Destroyers are core if the warlord is a Destroyer Lord)?


If Ravenwing/Terminators are troops IF Belial/Sammael I’d expect it, else not for an edition or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ScarletRose wrote:


I can definitely see that working for Dark Angels: termies (and maybe some gravis) become core if Deathwing, bikes,speeders and other FA become core if Ravenwing.


Termies are already core, and core doesn’t affect FOC slots. I think what you mean is Troops IF terminator Captain (or Belial if they half ass it again)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?


No, I think it’s whining about Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?


How threatening is double shooting without rerolls? It also doesn't solve much in regards to dreads.

Aggressors double tapping with full rerolls on to T4 = 71
Without rerolls = 48
Without double tap, but with rerolls = 35
Without double tap or rerolls = 24

Seems like you might crater Aggressors with their slow movement and low range.


That’s ok, they’re marine units. Cratering anything good they have is usually the goal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:

Yeah no-one is going to be crying if Agressors disappeared from play.

The balance has been so out of orbit imbalanced since marine 2.0 codex simply put it's the one gimic list that wasn't gutted rules qise in the change from 8th to 9th.

Count yourself luck people arn't dancing on the grave of codex marines as a competitive codex, as I think a lot of people are at that point of fed up. Heck when you have one of the biggest Self proclaimed Primaris Fanboys outright come out and say Marines especially Primaris are OP you know GW went Tooooooooooooooo far.


See.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:


Honestly this is typical for GW though, typically they talk up the buffs first and then discuss the inevitable nerfs and changes. Losing re-roll aura's on your tanks tends to hurt less when you're excited about 2 shot 1d6+2 damage multi-melta's


Not that a lot of people were taking SM tanks to begin with. Repulsors and raiders are just bad.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 03:58:09


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Then there's also the weirdness of things like devastators (assuming they don't get <CORE> ) being worse at hitting stuff than a space marine in a tac squad armed with the same weapon. Which feels really dumb. But on the other hand, if you do give devastators <CORE>, then that has its own host of problems re: making infantry even more clearly superior than tanks as an anti-tank platform.
Hot Take: Zero First Born units get 'Core'. Only Primaris units.
That's a pretty bad Hot Take given that 2 of the 3 know Core Units are First Born (Terminator Squad and Bike Squad)
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Does it seem odd to anyone else that the supposed "tank edition" is becoming increasingly hostile to tanks? Damage inflation, smaller boards, king-of-the-hill scenario design, and now no rerolls?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





I’m also seeing a lot of people assume transports are going to be core. Like the Razorback, and the Repulsor.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Breton wrote:
I’m also seeing a lot of people assume transports are going to be core. Like the Razorback, and the Repulsor.



Repulsor seems somewhat unlikely since they specifically don't want Captains baby sitting tanks and the Repulsor Executioner is used as an example of things that don't get aura bonuses now.
But, they do specifically say:
WarCom Article on Core wrote:Even some Vehicles will be Core units too, where appropriate.

I'm guessing Rhino is probably candidate #1, maybe Razorback and Impulsor.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 alextroy wrote:
That's a pretty bad Hot Take given that 2 of the 3 know Core Units are First Born (Terminator Squad and Bike Squad)
It was a joke. Hence the " ".

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 AnomanderRake wrote:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that the supposed "tank edition" is becoming increasingly hostile to tanks? Damage inflation, smaller boards, king-of-the-hill scenario design, and now no rerolls?


This subsequently means it is a little less hostile to hordes as the scarier blast weapons will not be on CORE units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote:
I’m also seeing a lot of people assume transports are going to be core. Like the Razorback, and the Repulsor.


I don't see why they would be.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 05:50:16


   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





To me the core vehicles thing implies stuff like leman russes, not so much transports.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 05:46:55


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Rhinos are pretty core to Marines.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rhinos are pretty core to Marines.


Yea, but that's being liberal with the concept of core, I think.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Is it?

They said some vehicles, and whilst I doubt Rhinos would derive much benefit from the re-rolls in question, I can't think of a vehicle more intrinsic to Marines than the Rhino.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is it?

They said some vehicles, and whilst I doubt Rhinos would derive much benefit from the re-rolls in question, I can't think of a vehicle more intrinsic to Marines than the Rhino.


Dreadnoughts? Or more specifically Boxnaughts? I don't know which one I'd call more intrinsic as the vehicle. Although I'd be fine with no dedicated transports in the marine line-up getting core, I could see arguments for either side though.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




One more questionable change that is inspired from the need to tune down certain factions. Instead of fixing those factions they prefer to make all to take the hit. Comparing Archon reroll 1 with certain 2 CP stratagem that give full rerolls or integrated in character datasheet auras is insane. Nerfing 4-5 attack characters because they created SM characters with insane amount of attacks and damage than can take down knights ...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is it?

They said some vehicles, and whilst I doubt Rhinos would derive much benefit from the re-rolls in question, I can't think of a vehicle more intrinsic to Marines than the Rhino.

That assumes any vehical in yhe Marine codex will be getting core, which depending upon how you read the WHC statement on vehicals could be read as implying it's refering to another codex.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Considering they were talking about two books, this means the vehicle core options would have to come from the necron codex. So which necron vehicles do you think are going to get the core rules, the arks maybe?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Ice_can wrote:
That assumes any vehical in yhe Marine codex will be getting core, which depending upon how you read the WHC statement on vehicals could be read as implying it's refering to another codex.
They said some vehicles. It's far harder to assume that no Marine vehicles will be core than at least one of them will.

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Voss wrote:
Breton wrote:
I’m also seeing a lot of people assume transports are going to be core. Like the Razorback, and the Repulsor.



Repulsor seems somewhat unlikely since they specifically don't want Captains baby sitting tanks and the Repulsor Executioner is used as an example of things that don't get aura bonuses now.
But, they do specifically say:
WarCom Article on Core wrote:Even some Vehicles will be Core units too, where appropriate.

I'm guessing Rhino is probably candidate #1, maybe Razorback and Impulsor.


I agree it won’t be the repulsor, I do t think it will be transports. It’d be hard to explain why the Impulsor can and the Repulsor can’t. I’m thinking speeders, dreads, warsuits, and TFC’s. Stand alone units with iconic, limited synergy, and/or marginal status


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rhinos are pretty core to Marines.


Rhinos have only been “core” when they were free. At a cost of about 2 and a half obsec troops and costing you roughly 4x the shots per turn they’re embarked plus game length now going to 5 turns instead of 6+ making each turn that much more vital... they’re just getting more expensive.

Sure they’re iconic, maybe they get the keyword. But who is going to care? Will re-rolling 1-2 storm bolters make you take 3 rhinos instead of another tac squad? How do you fluff this sort of tank getting it, and that more tank less APC not?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 07:20:25


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Having a greater ability to measure what auras will affect is only a good thing. It makes it easier to balance and cost the effects as well as allowing for greater variety in the design of the characters. All round a good change, pending the execution.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Umbros wrote:
...pending the execution.


Devil in the details. GW has plenty of good ideas but almost universally poor execution.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

I love the change. Less re-rolls = more fun!

My orks don't have a single re-rolling aura anyway and with SW the only change I see is Bjorn/Wolf Lord being unable to give the re-roll to a couple of razorbacks but if they are CORE units my lists are 100% unaffected by this change.

Nothing gamebreaking anyway. There isn't a single unit that becomes unplayable because now it doesn't have access to re-roll 1s auras.


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