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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, I really just wanted to better understand his position and the answer he was looking for.
It more or less seemed like you were trying to undermine the question and validity through the person rather then actually discussing the topic at hand. It's attacking the person and not the argument.
   
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I like how some vague assertion of assumed hostility is worth talking about, but the guy literally insulting me outright isn't worth a word.

It more or less seems like you guys have a vendetta against me and it doesn't matter what I say or said. Because feth the topic, right?

No wonder women want no part in this community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.
For reference, this is my apparently egregious post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 07:19:26


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic.


I know. woosh. lol

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Frazzled wrote:The wife always noted that war-gaming events physically smelled bad and that whenever she came in the looks would creep her out.

She did not get this vibe taking the Boy to card or other tournaments, only when visiting me at a 40K tournament.
.


My better half has attended a few bring'n'buy hobby events with me and said the same thing about the smell/atmosphere. Sadly, it is a curse of our hobby (although some areas are worse than others!) and I don't know whether its just a case that blokes are more prepared to put up with the fog?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But it seems to be focussed more on the gaming side of things, rather than the hobby as a whole.
*snip*
I know a fair few of the Dreded Wimmins involved in the hobby. Not all of them bother with the game, being instead into the art and painting side of things.


I follow a fair amount of artists on Twitter (ones that you could class as professionals with the quality of their work), what has become apparent to me over the past few years is how many of these are now women. I would say it's gone up by a fair proportion compared to how things were 4-5 years ago?

To contrast this, in wargaming groups I frequent (usually Epic, Horus Heresy, Infinity etc.) there seem to be very few women. Not none at all, but definitely seems like a very small minority compared to blokes.



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Okay, late to the party (thread) again, but not late as in the late Paint-it-Pink, kicked the bucket, died, and gone kind of late. So all is good.

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread. I note the usual problems when a long discussion starts on the internet where nuance of things like tone are completely lost, but otherwise pretty civil

I'm not much of a Dakka contributor. i like what I like, and I'm not into GW 40K. Which brings me to my opinion.

Cost of entry.

Not just the money, but all the hidden costs for a woman that include smelly young men.

I'm a retired nurse therapist and my sense of smell is not so great, but my partner, she has a nose for smells. So when I break a piece of chocolate to eat she can smell it from across the room. Whereas I have to sniff it to enjoy the pleasant aroma.

OTOH, a dripping tap drives me nuts, whereas my beloved is blithely unaware of the drip, drip, drip. I illustrate both of these for the reason that women are supposedly more sensitive to smells and sounds.

But the answer is that women are not all created the same.

So when I say cost, I include all the stares I get when I go into a WH store or FLGS where the male assistants have no clue how long I've been making and painting models, or playing games and assume I know nothing.

I used to say I was a BattleTech player, and whip out my ipod and show them pictures of my battlemechs back in the day. But that day was so long ago I can barely remember the last time I went into a store. Or for that matter a wargames club.

The reason for my lack of involvement int he wider wargaming community is down to the hidden costs, or if you prefer a plainer description, the problem of being female, and in my case old enough to be the mother and in some cases grandmother of the boys/men playing.

I know a lot of women who play RPGs and board games, but only a handful like me who actually have an interest in playing with painted miniatures. Though truth be told, I'm mostly into just painting the miniatures.

It's a sad life, but it's my life.

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Pacific wrote:
Frazzled wrote:The wife always noted that war-gaming events physically smelled bad and that whenever she came in the looks would creep her out.

She did not get this vibe taking the Boy to card or other tournaments, only when visiting me at a 40K tournament.
.


My better half has attended a few bring'n'buy hobby events with me and said the same thing about the smell/atmosphere. Sadly, it is a curse of our hobby (although some areas are worse than others!) and I don't know whether its just a case that blokes are more prepared to put up with the fog?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But it seems to be focussed more on the gaming side of things, rather than the hobby as a whole.
*snip*
I know a fair few of the Dreded Wimmins involved in the hobby. Not all of them bother with the game, being instead into the art and painting side of things.


I follow a fair amount of artists on Twitter (ones that you could class as professionals with the quality of their work), what has become apparent to me over the past few years is how many of these are now women. I would say it's gone up by a fair proportion compared to how things were 4-5 years ago?

To contrast this, in wargaming groups I frequent (usually Epic, Horus Heresy, Infinity etc.) there seem to be very few women. Not none at all, but definitely seems like a very small minority compared to blokes.



So my wife had the EXACT reaction that Frazzled did to the games store I took her to the first time, like 12 years ago or something. I don’t think it’s unique. I also know that she has a much more sensitive sense of smell than I do and I’m almost certain there’s a sex divide on olfactory sensitivity. My wife is also the person that basically dragged me to the Warhammer cafe in Dallas so she understands that while it’s not her hobby there’s no need to be actively hostile to it.

To your point about the artist on Twitter; and I’ll extend it to YouTube the female participation has gone up. I distinctly remember when JoeyBerry started up in the hobby from zero base; and went on to join the team for Total War Warhammer. It’s anecdotal but it also shows there’s not really a barrier to both learning and becoming quite prominent in the community.

From some of the comments I’ve sort of skimmed you see the reason people gatekeep their hobbies. Some people think the fundamental fabric of the game should change. Some people don’t like dark quasi fascist war torn futures should we make 40k into in the future Friendship is Magic? Lady space marines aren’t going to make women flock to a game, and more broadly and industry that doesn’t interest them already. Wargaming falls into a category of interest that I think a low percentage of women are really interested in. Not a none percentage; but a small one. Changing the background canon of a best selling model line to cater to a marginal percentage of potential customers is financially unsuitable. There’s no reason the game designers can’t change the fluff; it’s just fluff. I could also point out that being REPRESENTED in the game world isn’t necessarily what people want. I dunno if anyone noticed but I don’t see a lot of actual Orks at the gaming table. I’ve also frequently said that if you find three SoB cosplayers at least one of them is a dude. The model lines attract people who DONT look like the models so that’s a poor excuse for why women won’t come to the game.

The essential point is that women either like or don’t like the hobby; and wargamers are…well at best fringe. I’d be interested to see what the total percentage of all males are wargamers vs what percentage of all females are wargamers and then draw a parallel to traditionally female hobbies; and other fairly fringe hobbies like MTG or DND and see the comparison. There’s a pretty large chance it was never gatekeeping; and just a lack of interest by women.




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There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.

   
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 AustonT wrote:
I dunno if anyone noticed but I don’t see a lot of actual Orks at the gaming table.


There is no group of players better represented by their faction than Ork players.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa


So my wife had the EXACT reaction that Frazzled did to the games store I took her to the first time, like 12 years ago or something. I don’t think it’s unique. I also know that she has a much more sensitive sense of smell than I do and I’m almost certain there’s a sex divide on olfactory sensitivity.


I know this isn't what the thread is about but

A.) I have almost no sense of smell
B.) My wife can also smell much better than I can, although it's a low bar in my case
C.) I've only actually been to 40K gaming stores 4 times, and even I could smell them. Is it a cliche if it's true?


One of the very few people I follow on Tiktok, and the only 40K person, is a lady who plays Orks. Maybe they are uncommon because it's so many models to transport and move? How common are horde armies on the tabletop in general?

Maybe the reason more ladies aren't interested in playing wargames like 40K is because 40K is a deeply, deeply unfun game?


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 15:57:13


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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I'm fortunate to have access to a very clean store in which smell is never a problem outside certain people. Fortunately, even there the social climate has shifted more towards encouraging these people to take better care of themselves, so even that is less common. I definitely have stories though, but generally speaking I think the growth in games and comics and other nerdery has encouraged stores to put in the effort to be brighter and more open to the public. The dark, smelly basement stores don't feel nearly as common.

There's still definitely a divide. In my own town, there's a store in which I regularly go with my daughter and test out games. She chats with the staff and is welcome as can be. The other store definitely reacts with a bit of bewilderment at why I'd bring that "thing" in with me. I can't tell how much she can tell the difference, but I definitely prefer to take her where she's accepted.
   
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 Ouze wrote:
C.) I've only actually been to 40K gaming stores 4 times, and even I could smell them. Is it a cliche if it's true?
I have yet to find myself in a store that smells as strongly as any given pub or nightclub, or a typical fast food restaurant.

Not that there won't be some truth to anything played in a cramped building with kids coming in and out off the street eight hours a day.
   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


I’m not going to read a 40 page thread about lady space marines, do you mean to say you think that thread is evidence that lady space marines would bring significantly more women to the game?

Usually when there’s a 40 page thread on something it’s the same small handful of people who are too pedantic and overly invested to know when to walk away from an online discussion, so the thread goes on far longer than it is valuable or representative of the wider community. I know because I’m often one of those people People like that seem to be more prevalent in war gaming, or specifically more present on Dakka.
   
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I think it'ss absolutely critical to compare wargaming to other hobbies.

Only about 1-2% of my local fishing association roster is female last time I had a look at the members list.
Some sources I found thinks its about 15% nationally but not sure how they would get their data as when buying a rod licence you don't input your gender...

This is a solitary hobby predominately done by Men. Every single part of the hobby can/is usually done on your own; You buy gear, research, learn how to do tackle etc. All without interacting with a single person.
Is there a problem with fishing ??

I bet you there will be some people who will say "Yes. Not enough women in fishing. Must be sexism because I cant see any other reason upon scrutiny"

In contrast my wife to be beauty salon has 100% women attendance for treatments. Lets be generous and say its 95% on the grand scale.
Is there a problem with beauty salons??

So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny? Are we going to rampage our way through society and scrutinize every hobby and demonise people if there too many of a certain demographic enjoying a certain thing?

Warhammer is also mostly solitary. You buy, assemble and paint your stuff. If you want to you'd need to interact with an opponent to play a game. But that's pretty much it. You can have as broad a community as you want or you can go at it alone if you don't like the community/ aren't a community person.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 22:43:20


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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 Argive wrote:
So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny?
Because it is the outlier; tabletop gaming as a whole has trended towards more female participation but wargaming has not.

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


I’m not going to read a 40 page thread about lady space marines, do you mean to say you think that thread is evidence that lady space marines would bring significantly more women to the game?

Usually when there’s a 40 page thread on something it’s the same small handful of people who are too pedantic and overly invested to know when to walk away from an online discussion, so the thread goes on far longer than it is valuable or representative of the wider community. I know because I’m often one of those people People like that seem to be more prevalent in war gaming, or specifically more present on Dakka.


While mostly accurate, you should consider that they often cite sources, communities of women gamers who convert female space marines, or who want female space marines, or who chose AOS over 40k because one game had representation in its flagship faction and the other didn’t. There’s some worthwhile stuff in the thread.

   
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Wait are you saying if there's no female marines AoS gets all the ladies?

I gotta get that thread closed...









(Sarcasm, if that wasn't obvious)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 01:49:39


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 Argive wrote:
So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny?


I mean, I feel like the obvious answer here is that this is a wargaming forum. Perhaps those exact same conversations are taking place on fishing forums as well, but we're just not following them.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


I’m not going to read a 40 page thread about lady space marines, do you mean to say you think that thread is evidence that lady space marines would bring significantly more women to the game?

Usually when there’s a 40 page thread on something it’s the same small handful of people who are too pedantic and overly invested to know when to walk away from an online discussion, so the thread goes on far longer than it is valuable or representative of the wider community. I know because I’m often one of those people People like that seem to be more prevalent in war gaming, or specifically more present on Dakka.


While mostly accurate, you should consider that they often cite sources, communities of women gamers who convert female space marines, or who want female space marines, or who chose AOS over 40k because one game had representation in its flagship faction and the other didn’t. There’s some worthwhile stuff in the thread.


Yeah you lost me at "40 page thread", there are few 40 page threads I'd be interested in reading on any forum

But yeah, it's impossible to tell from a thread how prevalent a desire is and how many people might be enticed into a game if there were better representation in a specific faction, the sources of specific gamers who do a thing is impossible to extrapolate out. It's always hard to say if the increased representation will bring in enough sales to counter the portion of existing players you'll piss off. Even positive moves can push certain customers away, hell, I haven't touched my Space Marines since Primaris came out (and that probably would have been a good opportunity to bring in femarines if they wanted). The difference with female Sigmarines is male-only Sigmarines never existed in the first place, so you're not upsetting the existing community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Argive wrote:
So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny?


I mean, I feel like the obvious answer here is that this is a wargaming forum. Perhaps those exact same conversations are taking place on fishing forums as well, but we're just not following them.


I think it's fine to ask why there's discrepancies, but a question on top of that is whether it's actually a problem if there is discrepancies.

Lets face it, wargaming has a pretty high barrier to entry. Unlike a board game or an RPG or whatever, a wargame you're usually going out and spending several hundred if not thousands of dollars on an army then spending 100's of hours painting little toys before you even hit the table. You're buying carrying cases, you're spending hours reading rules. It's mostly the nerdiest of the nerdy and antisocial of the antisocialites who are drawn to it, I definitely would never have started wargaming if I was introduced to it as an adult.

People's interests and desires tend to lie on a bell curve, and a hobby like wargaming appeals to the very tail of that bell curve, so if the male and female bell curves are shifted slightly it the discrepancy grows.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 07:38:05


 
   
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 Ouze wrote:

Maybe the reason more ladies aren't interested in playing wargames like 40K is because 40K is a deeply, deeply unfun game?


Its a good point. 40k is objectively a bad wargame, at best its mediocre if you prefer your wargames to be decided by factors not on the table (so the list building, CP, strategies, special rule layer). The background and universe is great, but if you applied the game rules to a historical setting you would have far fewer adherents. If the more fun games had the wide acceptance of 40k would more people play once, like it and get involved? If you are ambivalent about the environment, playing a bland intro game or pointlessly complex bigger game it is going to turn you off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
I think it'ss absolutely critical to compare wargaming to other hobbies.

Only about 1-2% of my local fishing association roster is female last time I had a look at the members list.
This is a solitary hobby predominately done by Men. Every single part of the hobby can/is usually done on your own; You buy gear, research, learn how to do tackle etc. All without interacting with a single person.
Is there a problem with fishing ??

In contrast my wife to be beauty salon has 100% women attendance for treatments. Lets be generous and say its 95% on the grand scale.
Is there a problem with beauty salons??

Warhammer is also mostly solitary.


To get the comparison you would need to have a) fishing companies wanting to sell to women and b) comparable activities to fishing int he same sector that are attracting women. Fishing would then be an outlier. Here we have companies that want to grow and women playing RPGs, boardgames, computer games, etc that are traditionally put in the same bracket of niche male pursuit. If women are playing gears of war and axis and allies in greater numbers, why aren't they doing the same for wargames?

For beauty salons is there a comparable activity in the same sector for males? Well oddly enough there is both the historical precedent (men wearing a lot of make up and wigs) and a massive marketing push to get men into buying beauty products today. Barber shops seem to increasingly diversify into offering beauty salon like services and tanning beds are increasingly used by men.

There isn't a problem in the sense of something bad is happening to someone (well unless you go to a bad salon or catch mermaids), but if this your sector as a company you want to up your market. If its your hobbey you are generally better off with greater numbers of people participating from across different social divides to maximise its sustainability and your easy future within it. Yes you can fish with a stick and some string or wargame with painted rice, but its a lot better if companies are offering good products.

Also I would say Wargaming is solitary in preparation but completely social in execution, unless you are a solo gamer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 17:45:37


 
   
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

Maybe the reason more ladies aren't interested in playing wargames like 40K is because 40K is a deeply, deeply unfun game?


Its a good point. 40k is objectively a bad wargame, at best its mediocre if you prefer your wargames to be decided by factors not on the table (so the list building, CP, strategies, special rule layer). The background and universe is great, but if you applied the game rules to a historical setting you would have far fewer adherents. If the more fun games had the wide acceptance of 40k would more people play once, like it and get involved? If you are ambivalent about the environment, playing a bland intro game or pointlessly complex bigger game it is going to turn you off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
I think it'ss absolutely critical to compare wargaming to other hobbies.

Only about 1-2% of my local fishing association roster is female last time I had a look at the members list.
This is a solitary hobby predominately done by Men. Every single part of the hobby can/is usually done on your own; You buy gear, research, learn how to do tackle etc. All without interacting with a single person.
Is there a problem with fishing ??

In contrast my wife to be beauty salon has 100% women attendance for treatments. Lets be generous and say its 95% on the grand scale.
Is there a problem with beauty salons??

Warhammer is also mostly solitary.


To get the comparison you would need to have a) fishing companies wanting to sell to women and b) comparable activities to fishing int he same sector that are attracting women. Fishing would then be an outlier. Here we have companies that want to grow and women playing RPGs, boardgames, computer games, etc that are traditionally put in the same bracket of niche male pursuit. If women are playing gears of war and axis and allies in greater numbers, why aren't they doing the same for wargames?

For beauty salons is there a comparable activity in the same sector for males? Well oddly enough there is both the historical precedent (men wearing a lot of make up and wigs) and a massive marketing push to get men into buying beauty products today. Barber shops seem to increasingly diversify into offering beauty salon like services and tanning beds are increasingly used by men.

There isn't a problem in the sense of something bad is happening to someone (well unless you go to a bad salon or catch mermaids), but if this your sector as a company you want to up your market. If its your hobbey you are generally better off with greater numbers of people participating from across different social divides to maximise its sustainability and your easy future within it. Yes you can fish with a stick and some string or wargame with painted rice, but its a lot better if companies are offering good products.

Also I would say Wargaming is solitary in preparation but completely social in execution, unless you are a solo gamer.


I can think of a few reasons why women liked Gears of War XD

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I think something like Gears of War makes it a lot easier to show interest in with some anonymity. If you've ever been in the cringe fest that is a player admitting to being a girl in those games.... it's bad. In the tabletop space, that social cost ends up getting paid upfront.
   
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Every major fishing company I know of has a women’s line and actively attempts to increase market share amongst women. Because it’s an unrealized income potential. The difference is no one is writing articles about why fishing is so problematic; or salon/spas. Those hobbies it seems acceptable to just shrug and say “it’s not for everyone.”

Unlike this extremely niche hobby that requires a pretty focused interest in a number of things women don’t especially care for.
Then it’s unacceptable to point about that this already fringe hobby may not be very attractive to women (and most men); and that’s fine.

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Perhaps its more that fishing is more a personal hobby in many ways. It's you or a friend or two against the fish.

Meanwhile with wargames when you actually game its you and another person. You have to have at least one other person. Take that to the club level and most of us find that with larger groups there's often more mutual fun potential. More people means more variation in matches; it means more skill spread and skill levels. It means more chance of having more people at your skill level to play with.


So there's a direct personal benefit to wanting to have more gamers. Be that looking at current social groups that wargame; or looking at other groups for potential gamers.

   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

So here's what i have to ask. Why do we need wargaming to appeal to women whereas things like True Blood, Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey are totally fine to appeal to women without appealing to men? Is it not ok for certain groups to prefer certain things? Why do we have to try to force certain demographics into certain hobbies?

I have a family member that mentioned he runs a chess club with a bunch of students and they tried to introduce many women in. While there was one they had that could beat all the boys most of the girls would just chat and be social to each other. I think he mentioned some wouldn't even really play the game.

As far as objectification goes anime is very popular with women despite constant ridiculous objectification.

I think you guys are often trying to attack the problem the wrong way. For instance back when i wanted to watch 300 my half sister went merely so she could see a lot of buff shirtless dudes. Maybe women would rather see the warhammer romance stories or check out a buff shirtless sanguinius or something. Just a thought.

Also if anybody thinks only men are bad at the table....ahem. Might be a bit NSFW.




I think it's mostly Veibae and Snuffy but if this was dudes you'd probably ask them to calm down a little.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 23:55:48


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That's a really good point. Nothing needs to appeal to everybody. A target audience, even if indirectly targeted, is fine.

In my experience playing 40K/WHFB the people in my area (99% male) were either incredibly socially awkward, excessively competitive (I fell into this category tbf), or otherwise odd in a detrimental way. You can't have a female friendly environment when 25%+ of the population doesn't know or is incapable of behaving like a human being when around women.

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pontiac, michigan; usa

Yeah I think that's part of it. Wargaming just tends to appeal to socially awkward dudes. Also once you reach a threshold of just men or women in any hobby like 80 to 90% you will see certain attitudes. I remember a picture of older moms holding up a billboard saying Moms that love twilight or something. The idea is that they were into a movie with a dude that was at the time fairly young and it just sent out some creepy pedo vibes with it. I'm not saying this makes it 100% ok but this will happen when the fan base is mostly of a certain demographic with probably anything and not just sex or gender.

Then there's the idea that only wargaming fanbases can be toxic or weird....except Harry potter (potter heads that say which of the 4 school groups they're in), star wars (even decades ago with religion), star trek (calling out episodes on number or going Kirk or picard) and so on and so forth. If I recall even sports has this ridiculous obsession with teams which are basically a jock version of nerdy hobbies. Not an insult but it's what they are.

Also if we are going to consider markets this inevitably will lead to opinions based in other countries or regions such as China and let's be real human rights are few and far between with such regions and they take a dim view of even more moderate views by western standards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 01:52:40


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
If I recall even sports has this ridiculous obsession with teams which are basically a jock version of nerdy hobbies. Not an insult but it's what they are.


Fantasy Leagues are pretty much modern proof all those sports fans were always nerds. Just with different interests. I’ve sat through HOURS of just stat line and list building with some dude building his fantasy football team that rivals any 40k skullduggery.

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Some of you need to get over your victim complex.

Or maybe we just need to put 'trigger warning' in the thread title? People really will get offended over anything these days.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 05:30:19


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Some of you need to get over your victim complex.


That seems like a wholly unuseful comment.
   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

Who has a victim complex? I just got here. These days I gotta pretty much walk on egg shells in any discussion because dakka or other places can't handle opinions differing from their own.

I was actually pleasantly surprised at a couple responses this time but there are those on any side which have to make everything into a fight.


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