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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Adding too, and responding to a market demand is not bad thing for a setting.
They have been doing that since the very beginning.
Why suddenly would it be a issue now ?

Also It’s not virtue signalling or anything of the sort, and not every large corporation is set to donate to specific cause.Or they may do other things they may consider to support people.

GW from my understanding is proudly making products in the UK, supporting local economy. They may consider that enough, or maybe you need to ask them to maybe expand there support to something?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Tyran wrote:
Tone. The recent Marneus Calgar comic is full of jokes of just how awful the IoM is. You cannot sell a nihilistic dystopia with fascists protagonists if your tone is serious, but you can sell the same thing if your tone is full of dark humor and self-aware irony.


Have you ever read 1984?
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 Strg Alt wrote:

Have you ever read 1984?

Would you play a game set in 1984? I wouldn't.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Apple fox 799882 11183893 wrote:
How where they forced? They responded to things happening that they probably thought where nothing but negative to them.

Asking authors about subjects they write about it is common, if there was any reason too. Someone may have asked, it’s only anti-intellectual in the way you are trying to use it now.

GW is adding more women in the settings they own, in a response to players. They wouldn’t be adding them in different ways if they didn’t think there was a market for them in some way.
The written work as well looks like testing the waters quite a lot, with how they use the work depict charecters, not just female. Edit to clarify

The stores and buyers of model around the world have to be very different then, because here practically all the players and buyers are just dudes. Only women I saw buy stuff, were either moms buying stuff for their kids or women buying gifts for someone. The twitch streams and tournaments seem to be male dominated too. I think only in WD I saw female painters, but that is a small minority comparing to the number of buyers who play the game. I don't mind female characters, and the SoB was actually fun to read, made download some of the BL SoB books. I do find the fact that somehow after 10k years most space ship captins are somehow female. Makes as much sense as every colour tester being male somehow. Funny, but has little impact on actual enjoyment of the books.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Tyran wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:

Have you ever read 1984?

Would you play a game set in 1984? I wouldn't.


It would be interesting needing to roll a d20 on the newspeak chart...



But No, not really.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Tyran wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:

Have you ever read 1984?

Would you play a game set in 1984? I wouldn't.


Absolutely yes if done properly, we already got a variation of brave new world (we happy few), mind you maybe Bioshock 1 could be considered a parody of 1984.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
Adding too, and responding to a market demand is not bad thing for a setting.
They have been doing that since the very beginning.
Why suddenly would it be a issue now ?

Also It’s not virtue signalling or anything of the sort, and not every large corporation is set to donate to specific cause.Or they may do other things they may consider to support people.

GW from my understanding is proudly making products in the UK, supporting local economy. They may consider that enough, or maybe you need to ask them to maybe expand there support to something?


GW does not respond to market demand. GW willfully manipulates its market demand by subjecting its customers and stockists to hunger games with its FOMO tactics. Or how about the 1-man store model? Or dropping specialist games? Or dropping the ball on community support on events all those years ago?

I am absolutely certain GW have not spent a sincere dollar on supporting females in the hobby. Stop being co-opted to give them anything but a big F on their report card. You've been fooled.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 19:10:10


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
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Bioshock was a parody of Atlas Shrugged, it was all about taking Ayn Rand's libertarian "utopia" to its logical conclusion.
   
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Been Around the Block





Sign me up for 1984 board game. Essentially - this was a world with 3 super states constantly at war. Part of the game is suppressing your own peoples rebellion's.

Kind of like playing sim city - except you are also trying to destroy your neighbors town. Sounds hot.
   
Made in us
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Or, if you accept the Goldstein premise from the book, you are playing all 3 countries that have to pretend to be at war with one another to consume the excess resources produced by a high-tech industrial state (so that no one's quality of life improves to the point where they can threaten the system).

So you have to win your battles, but not win TOO BIG as one side, because the status quo MUST be maintained for the powers-that-be to persist.

The Goldstein premise is heavily supported (in addition to being outright stated by the Party in a counter-free-thought book) by the fact that the three nations abruptly shift who is fighting who ("We have always been at war with East Asia!") with no major shifts of territory or anything. It's done (just like "three-faction MMOs") to preserve the balance of the artificial system.

Again, it's utterly dystopian. The promise of science and production? All excess resources and knowledge get consumed by war, rather than being allowed to make people's lives better - and this is a deliberate policy by the Powers That Be (big brother!) to aid in their continuous existence.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Sign me up for 1984 board game. Essentially - this was a world with 3 super states constantly at war. Part of the game is suppressing your own peoples rebellion's.

Kind of like playing sim city - except you are also trying to destroy your neighbors town. Sounds hot.


Would be a very strange game where each player wasn't actually trying to win just to drag to game out forever

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Also pulled this from the 18-19 report

Research and development
The Group does not undertake research activities. Development activities relate to the development of new product lines. The charge to
the income statement for the year in respect of development activities is detailed in note 9 to the financial statements.

It's pretty clear it's not a thing

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Bioshock was a parody of Atlas Shrugged, it was all about taking Ayn Rand's libertarian "utopia" to its logical conclusion.

Maybe he meant Bioshock Infinite? That has a scapegoat in the form of the Beast.

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Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
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Earth

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Bioshock was a parody of Atlas Shrugged, it was all about taking Ayn Rand's libertarian "utopia" to its logical conclusion.

Maybe he meant Bioshock Infinite? That has a scapegoat in the form of the Beast.


Which one is it where everything is controlled by a centralised group of oligarchs and they use their power to basically control every aspect of the peoples lives?
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Bioshock was a parody of Atlas Shrugged, it was all about taking Ayn Rand's libertarian "utopia" to its logical conclusion.

Maybe he meant Bioshock Infinite? That has a scapegoat in the form of the Beast.


Which one is it where everything is controlled by a centralised group of oligarchs and they use their power to basically control every aspect of the peoples lives?

Yeah, that's Bioshock Infinite. The city was flying and populated by religious fanatics who were into racism, right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 20:32:10


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
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Kansas, United States

40K should by Byronic satire, sarcasm, and parody, lampooning fascism and fascists in equal measure. The orks are the good guys, and they're football hooligans.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
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Earth

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Bioshock was a parody of Atlas Shrugged, it was all about taking Ayn Rand's libertarian "utopia" to its logical conclusion.

Maybe he meant Bioshock Infinite? That has a scapegoat in the form of the Beast.


Which one is it where everything is controlled by a centralised group of oligarchs and they use their power to basically control every aspect of the peoples lives?

Yeah, that's Bioshock Infinite. The city was flying and populated by religious fanatics who were into racism, right?


Yeah thats the one I think, been a while, Bioshock one is Rapture yeah?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Octopoid wrote:
40K should by Byronic satire, sarcasm, and parody, lampooning fascism and fascists in equal measure. The orks are the good guys, and they're football hooligans.


Something that gives me a tickle is people missing the lampooning of Hegelianism under the guise of Fascism, Communism and Socialism throughout the setting, the Imperium in its own twisted logic thinks its the Ideal society, hell even parts of the Inquisition enforce this idiotic belief (Thorians IIRC) with an iron fist, while the Emperor being a borderline utopianist and was willing to resort to any means to push that goal including mass murder and genocide thinking that the ends justify the means, that he was doing it for the greater good, that humanity needed to progress by any means necessary and his ultimate goal would benefit all.

As usual though the best intentions created nothing but death and destruction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 21:03:04


 
   
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...ugh why am I getting involved at all in this completely flying rodent gak argument that I don't know what it is anymore.

I... think bringing Hegel into it is a bit of a stretch and far deeper philosophically than any writer's intent.

First, the Emperor downfall was caused partly by an irrational dictum; trying to deny the existence of things that, while we might consider them irrational, are demonstrable phenomena in a universe where enough emotions in the right heads literally come out and kill people to feast on their soul-stuff. I actually would bring it back around to Ghostbusters - In their universe, ghosts *do* exist and trying to *deny* that a 50-story tall marshmallow attacked downtown New York would at that point be the irrational stance.

Second, a quick Wikipedia check:
"Hegel teaches [that]... each nation has its own individual spirit, and the greatest of crimes is the act by which the tyrant or the conqueror stifles the spirit of a nation." And that doesn't line up with the Emperor at all.

It is absolutely about good intentions going overboard and backfiring, but that's to make it more grimdark, not to decry rationalism as a philosophy.

The whole thing is very much anti-fascist - at least, it friggin' well better be, or else every remotely sane person should just flee this entire setting and hobby as soon as possible.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
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Earth

...ugh why am I getting involved at all in this completely flying rodent gak argument that I don't know what it is anymore.


Chill out Kasen, its just a conversation mate not need to get worked up.

I... think bringing Hegel into it is a bit of a stretch and far deeper philosophically than any writer's intent.


If someone mentions 40ks fascist themes then it makes sense to mention Hegel since his work is a route cause of that ideology, same as the other collectivist utopian philosophies, people keep claiming its a satire and I can think of no better person to lampoon that this fool.

First, the Emperor downfall was caused partly by an irrational dictum;


To us, not to him.

trying to deny the existence of things that, while we might consider them irrational, are demonstrable phenomena in a universe where enough emotions in the right heads literally come out and kill people to feast on their soul-stuff.


he did not try to deny them, he knew they existed and created an ideology and philosophy specifically designed to reduce their power and brutally crushed anyone that dared counter his false ideology, this sounds VERY much like Hegelian derived philosophies, denial of human nature and brutal suppression of any competing world views.

I actually would bring it back around to Ghostbusters - In their universe, ghosts *do* exist and trying to *deny* that a 50-story tall marshmallow attacked downtown New York would at that point be the irrational stance.


again irrational to us as we are outside looking in, to them its entirely consistent to deny these things exists until that 50 story marshmellow man appears, after it does there is not denial other than a bitter state worker who now looks like a fool, I would imagine after the fact people would very much believe ghosts exist so I do not really get this analogy sorry.

Spoiler:
"Hegel teaches [that]... each nation has its own individual spirit, and the greatest of crimes is the act by which the tyrant or the conqueror stifles the spirit of a nation."


The Imperium has its own individual spirit, the greatest of crimes is to stifle the spirit of the Imperium in its goal of uniting humanity under the imperial truth, reality is all, there is nothing outside of reality... trust us

And that doesn't line up with the Emperor at all.


Lines up perfectly to me

It is absolutely about good intentions going overboard and backfiring, but that's to make it more grimdark, not to decry rationalism as a philosophy.


Extreme rationalism is very destructive as one can rationalise the starvation of millions for the greater good, genocide to rid society of its "bad" elements, purge the mutant, the heretic and the alien because that is the rational thing to do in a universe that wants our species dead.... or is it.

The whole thing is very much anti-fascist - at least, it friggin' well better be, or else every remotely sane person should just flee this entire setting and hobby as soon as possible.


Its not pro fascist, its not anti fascist, its a story and setting that is showing what happens when you take extremes to their absolute limit but its not about that specifically, it does a bang up job of showing why extreme socialism, communism, fascism, corporatism, collectivism, over industrialisation, mass pollution etc. is not a good thing but that is a backdrop, not the main focus, which is a good thing I think as fundamentally its supposed to be entertainment and escapism, if someone is coming to 40k to impose or gain a political education then they should indeed flee the entire setting as soon as possible.

At the end of the day though such themes and tones are the reasons why talking about the lore is fun and interesting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 22:57:23


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Bioshock was a parody of Atlas Shrugged, it was all about taking Ayn Rand's libertarian "utopia" to its logical conclusion.

Maybe he meant Bioshock Infinite? That has a scapegoat in the form of the Beast.


Which one is it where everything is controlled by a centralised group of oligarchs and they use their power to basically control every aspect of the peoples lives?

Yeah, that's Bioshock Infinite. The city was flying and populated by religious fanatics who were into racism, right?


Yeah thats the one I think, been a while, Bioshock one is Rapture yeah?


Yeah, Bioshock 1 and 2 were both set in Rapture, except with different antagonists and different themes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 00:50:09


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




xerxeskingofking wrote:
I think their is room for multiple tones within the greater banner of 40K. One thing i would like to see more of is a greater push away form "absolute" truths towards "relative" truths. I feel their has been a move in many settings towards a single, defined and immutable truth, that cannot be deviated form. and honestly, I dont like it. i feel that a little wiggle room is good, it lets other add to and improve the narrative in creative ways that enrich the work as a whole.

Events and history should be blatantly biased by the storytellers viewpoint, and ideally their should be alternate versions of the event form another viewpoint that directly contradict some parts of the 1st narrative, reinforcing that these tales are just that, TALES, that details large and small might be wrong. One side should record a battle as being a defeat, form which they withdrew in good order, to conserve their forces and continue the war, while the other records the same battle as them vanquishing a fleeing and broken enemy, who never troubled the area again, etc, etc.

It would require a bit of work, namely a central "clearing house" to ensure that books written years apart can match up to report on the same events, but it would be awesome. it would add back in that ambiguity about what actually happened, allow for wiggle room in the lore, etc. Did Abaddon really launch 13 crusades, or have the efforts of his allies and underlings been blamed on him? Do most marines strictly adhere to the Codex, or do most deviate to some greater or lesser degree? are the Tau as nice as they make out or just the Imperium with better PR? you get the picture.

Also, the inherit absurdities of the girmdark setting should be acknowledged and explored. A inquisitor might crack down hard on a chaos cult in a hive, but cause such collateral damage that thousands of hivers are driven into the arms of chaos, as anything would be an improvement on their current situation, etc.



The problem with the biased story teller is thus....people crave absolutes. It is just human nature. Making conflicting lores will only serve to cause arguments among fans and (imho) cheapens the setting and story. I think the proper way to do what you want is for the structure to be like the following...

Story ( factions views of the story ) and then how that works into the overall lore. The fact that Terra was sieged should not be up for discussion. How effective that siege was can and should vary as the focus of the particular story shifts. An example. Chaos see it as a win because Terra was battered and the Emperor was forced onto the golden throne. The imperium see it as a win for them because Chaos was thrown back and the empire was secured with little to no territorial shifts. Both sides are right. But the event happened.
   
Made in au
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Table wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
I think their is room for multiple tones within the greater banner of 40K. One thing i would like to see more of is a greater push away form "absolute" truths towards "relative" truths. I feel their has been a move in many settings towards a single, defined and immutable truth, that cannot be deviated form. and honestly, I dont like it. i feel that a little wiggle room is good, it lets other add to and improve the narrative in creative ways that enrich the work as a whole.

Events and history should be blatantly biased by the storytellers viewpoint, and ideally their should be alternate versions of the event form another viewpoint that directly contradict some parts of the 1st narrative, reinforcing that these tales are just that, TALES, that details large and small might be wrong. One side should record a battle as being a defeat, form which they withdrew in good order, to conserve their forces and continue the war, while the other records the same battle as them vanquishing a fleeing and broken enemy, who never troubled the area again, etc, etc.

It would require a bit of work, namely a central "clearing house" to ensure that books written years apart can match up to report on the same events, but it would be awesome. it would add back in that ambiguity about what actually happened, allow for wiggle room in the lore, etc. Did Abaddon really launch 13 crusades, or have the efforts of his allies and underlings been blamed on him? Do most marines strictly adhere to the Codex, or do most deviate to some greater or lesser degree? are the Tau as nice as they make out or just the Imperium with better PR? you get the picture.

Also, the inherit absurdities of the girmdark setting should be acknowledged and explored. A inquisitor might crack down hard on a chaos cult in a hive, but cause such collateral damage that thousands of hivers are driven into the arms of chaos, as anything would be an improvement on their current situation, etc.



The problem with the biased story teller is thus....people crave absolutes. It is just human nature. Making conflicting lores will only serve to cause arguments among fans and (imho) cheapens the setting and story. I think the proper way to do what you want is for the structure to be like the following...

Story ( factions views of the story ) and then how that works into the overall lore. The fact that Terra was sieged should not be up for discussion. How effective that siege was can and should vary as the focus of the particular story shifts. An example. Chaos see it as a win because Terra was battered and the Emperor was forced onto the golden throne. The imperium see it as a win for them because Chaos was thrown back and the empire was secured with little to no territorial shifts. Both sides are right. But the event happened.


If you make it specific that it is someone telling a story in setting, you can get away with that. But it is hard to do right and when done wrong it really just ends up slightly annoying.

One thing they did in white wolf books for World or darkness, that I think is fantastic for a setting. Was have a what this group/faction thinks of the other groups in the setting. The closer the group, the more specific they got.
They conflict, with some groups going we like this group as they do things we like. But that didn’t mean the other liked them back, or had a positive outlook.
It could be a way to flesh out the factions a lot. Space marines book could has the ultramarines talk about the different craftworlds, some are left to do there thing when found. Others should be be made sure to back down.
Dark Eldar, they don’t know why that group as a whole is so different, but they are. And other Eldar have never given strait answers or even conflicting information back.
A Guard regiment have, eldar of the iyanden craftworld always avoid conflict with us, biel-tan only appear to destroy worlds.
They are more simplistic in how they may view them, so they may even just have some Eldar turn up and then leave, others cause chaos for little reason than to hear our cry’s. We don’t understand them
I think it would be super cool to see, but it’s easy to write and could even put some new character in there.
Can even be used in a way to make note of specific conflicts, and different tones the factions may be seen to harbour.

May work well enough for Games workshop if they do it similar for each faction.
   
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I think it should be kinda nonsensical and bright and overly edgy. That is the charm for people like me who like RT and 2nd Ed. The designs for it is what is special.

There is only the Emperor, and he is our shield and protector.  
   
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 Irkjoe wrote:
The shift to focusing on named characters makes up at least of half of what killed the tone of 40k.


Yep, this really annoys me. How are all these characters everywhere across the galaxy? How do they often just run into each other when there's suppose to be at minimum a million Imperial worlds to fight over?

It just makes the setting feel more like a Saturday morning cartoon than a fully developed setting.
   
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Jarms48 wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
The shift to focusing on named characters makes up at least of half of what killed the tone of 40k.


Yep, this really annoys me. How are all these characters everywhere across the galaxy? How do they often just run into each other when there's suppose to be at minimum a million Imperial worlds to fight over?

It just makes the setting feel more like a Saturday morning cartoon than a fully developed setting.


One of the interesting part of this, is warmachine is often mentioned in similar. But I think has more charecters spread about its factions. And has specific in world reasons for why they could come into conflict more often in setting on a battlefield.
It’s also one of the reasons the assassination mechinac makes sense in game. The loss of a warcaster or warlock is a monumental disruption to a battle line.

GW uses its characters more like advertising, and they must be where there needed around the galaxy. Even if there is characters there that would be more appropriate.
I also think they don’t want writers making a new character that ends up a fav, when they have others that they have models for they want to sell.
   
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Jarms48 799882 11186459 wrote:Yep, this really annoys me. How are all these characters everywhere across the galaxy?


Prognosticators and the lore litterally saying that if the battle is important the person breaks through the veil of warp and enters real world for the time of the battle, and some time after it, after they re enter warp and are ready to teleport to another part of the galaxy, while in the mean time burning nurgles garden or destroying the floating mirror cities.

Litteraly writen in the lore. But I am not going to lie. I would like to see guardian suits used off planet .

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

If you're going to have named characters in a story, then they have to die.

I always compare BattleTech to 40k, because for the longest time the former was a story, and the latter was a setting.

In BTech things moved forwards. The main players leading the various factions are not the same ones as those that started. They're not even the same ones that took over from the first generation. We're 3 (maybe even 4) generations of characters into the story now, with everyone from the first two long dead.

Meanwhile, 40k is currently set a fair bit beyond 999.M41 at this stage (but kept fuzzy because GW still treats 40k like a setting half the time), and all the characters we had before are still there. Nothing's really moved forward, other than there being a big split in the galaxy and Guilliman rocking around with a bunch of Nu-Marines. I mean, when the Black Templar book comes around, what's the bet that Helbrecht and Grimaldus will still be leading the Chapter?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that named characters are a mistake in 40k, but they just have to be used correctly. Right now, using them in a story (rather than a setting) is not using them right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 06:47:12


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One way they could support charecters death on the table top would be to include there builds into the generic leader models.

Wouldn’t work great for the primarchs, but most of the others in the setting could work.
Or have new characters pick up the legacy with a almost idencial load out with items passed down to be used again.
   
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Lincolnton, N.C.

Goose LeChance wrote:Gothic, Grimdark, Ironic, Unironic, Horror, Action, whatever.

Anything but Marvel or Disney please.




Yeah... I don't get this at all as Marvel and Disney have done gothic, grimdark, and have done some seriously dark gut punches in their IPs before. Matter of fact Disney and Marvel could DO 40K on screen darker than the abyss of hell. Make Event Horizon look like Barney.

That said. Gothic and Grimdark with a silver lining or a bit comic irony is the best. I love the idea of sword fights in space, with explosions in the back ground as the ideal 'look' of 40K. And the idea of life being cheap. Worlds burning, post-apoc here, while cities gleam over there. All that works. But 40K can get up it's own rear with it's grimdark sometimes. Like the execution of every non-power armored person that fought on Armageddon against the World Eaters. Or the utter trash of the Bloodtide event with the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle.

My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba
Order of Saint Pan Thera


DR:80S+++G+M+B++IPw40K(3)00-D++A+++/cWD233R---T(M)DM+ 
   
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What is wrong with the bloodtide thing? The Grey Knights acted exactly the way they always act to perform their job. If the only protection at hand is relics and fetishs made from the Emperors faithful, they do it. It makes perfect sense for them to act like that and in world lore it works too. GK are not just psykers, they learn sorcery and warp magic not just to combat it, but to use it too. Name magic, like the stuff that was used to bring down Horus, is core of how they fight their demonic opponents.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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