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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
At this point, i think i'll just pay 3pts extra on all my marines and play them with an extra wound.
And might as well have their legion traits work on all their units too (spooky rhinos wont break anything).


its just ridiculous at this point.
We made the following changes locally:
- Every Marine that starts with a 3+ save gets +1W at no cost.
- Terminator units may purchase a 3rd wound at +5p per model.
- If a datasheet has been printed with a newer version in codex Death Guard or Thousand Sons, you use that profile and options -the legion specific stuff.

Extra wounds do not apply to HQ choices and characters.

Give it a try, it is still far from being oppressive.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
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Hecaton wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
I think about Andy Chambers a lot, and still have the 2002 chaos codex. The thing is that his rules permanently mangled the game, the background, the players, the meta, and particularly relevant to chaos space marines.


I guarantee some suit found the AP system confusing and wanted it streamlined down.


That makes sense, it’s hard to tell. Chambers definitely was involved in Glaser’s Creek which flattened Orlando. I believe he did a designers notes or interview that said he was intentional about making troops more generic and taking out as much wargear, complexity, and multi wound characters as possible
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Had a thought: when the leak for new models was first posted, can anyone remember if it was stated if everything was for CSM, or just "Chaos"? Because some of the cultist stuff seems redundant for CSM. The Possessed Humans is the red herring: why would CSM need Possessed and Possessed Humans? Just wondering if that stuff could be for a stand alone R&H/LatD codex. That would be great IMO.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Do we need another Codex with half a list that we have to wait 6-18 months for the other half of their army in some expansion book followed by a 2nd Edition Codex?

Because with the leaks there's not enough there to make up the meat of a Traitor Guard/LatD list.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we need another Codex with half a list that we have to wait 6-18 months for the other half of their army in some expansion book followed by a 2nd Edition Codex?

Because with the leaks there's not enough there to make up the meat of a Traitor Guard/LatD list.

We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we need another Codex with half a list that we have to wait 6-18 months for the other half of their army in some expansion book followed by a 2nd Edition Codex?

Because with the leaks there's not enough there to make up the meat of a Traitor Guard/LatD list.

We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.


With the BSF stuff and chaos upgrade sprue we basically already have all the models to make traitor guard a thing, we're only missing the rules

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.
But no model/no rule. They don't sell "Traitor Guard" vehicles. They'd have to release some sort of upgrade sprue at the very least (ala Brood Brothers) before that's allowed. And even then, Brood Brothers got options limited to just the sprue despite there being fuller options available to Cadians in general.

There's a Mutant Ogryn model. Singular. It comes with a Traitor Commissar. Do you want units of Chaos Beastmen who come exactly 4-8 in a unit because that's what was on the sprue/in the box? Traitor Guard squads limited to 7 that have to take a Flamer?

My point is that the given leaks still make a full Traitor Guard army seem a bit thin on the ground:

1 HQ + Bodyguard
1 Standard bearer
4 types of infantry (Cultists and Traitor Guard, and the Possessed and Mutated humans, apparently different things)

And that's it? Given GW's sudden love of DLC, I think we should be careful about wishing for a standalone Codex.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.

But no model/no rule. They don't sell "Traitor Guard" vehicles. They'd have to release some sort of upgrade sprue at the very least (ala Brood Brothers) before that's allowed. And even then, Brood Brothers got options limited to just the sprue despite there being fuller options available to Cadians in general.

There's a Mutant Ogryn model. Singular. It comes with a Traitor Commissar. Do you want units of Chaos Beastmen who come exactly 4-8 in a unit because that's what was on the sprue/in the box? Traitor Guard squads limited to 7 that have to take a Flamer?

My point is that the given leaks still make a full Traitor Guard army seem a bit thin on the ground:

1 HQ + Bodyguard
1 Standard bearer
4 types of infantry (Cultists and Traitor Guard, and the Possessed and Mutated humans, apparently different things)

And that's it? Given GW's sudden love of DLC, I think we should be careful about wishing for a standalone Codex.

Nope, no "Traitor Guard" vehicles. No Chaos Knight Tyrant or Wardogs either, but both of those exist. Go ask for one of them at your local store and they'll hand you a Knight Castellan or some Armigers. No "Chaos Knights upgrade sprue" either. No "Chaos specific" kit for Chaos Sicarans, Chaos Spartans, Chaos Fire Raptors, Chaos Fellblades, etc, etc either, but those units exist as well.

And no, I don't want a kit with only eight beastmen. I don't want a kit of seven Traitor Guardsmen or a kit of eight Cultists, one of which is an unusable character, either. But I doubt that either the Traitor Guardsmen or the new Cultists will be exactly the BSF kit, otherwise the Cultists wouldn't be "new", would they? They'd just be the kit gw already sells.

I understand your point about DLC, but that still doesn't explain why CSM need Possessed Astartes and Possessed Humans. What would be the purpose of having both of those in the same codex?
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.
But no model/no rule. They don't sell "Traitor Guard" vehicles. They'd have to release some sort of upgrade sprue at the very least (ala Brood Brothers) before that's allowed. And even then, Brood Brothers got options limited to just the sprue despite there being fuller options available to Cadians in general.

There's a Mutant Ogryn model. Singular. It comes with a Traitor Commissar. Do you want units of Chaos Beastmen who come exactly 4-8 in a unit because that's what was on the sprue/in the box? Traitor Guard squads limited to 7 that have to take a Flamer?

My point is that the given leaks still make a full Traitor Guard army seem a bit thin on the ground:

1 HQ + Bodyguard
1 Standard bearer
4 types of infantry (Cultists and Traitor Guard, and the Possessed and Mutated humans, apparently different things)

And that's it? Given GW's sudden love of DLC, I think we should be careful about wishing for a standalone Codex.


You realise hopefully that IA13 had also only 4 infantry unit types, which could due to customizablilty stand in..
A HQ , banner bearer, body guard is pretty much the old set up of the Vraksian command

3 differing types of infantry, 4 if you count the beastmen is more than enough if propperly.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Australia

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Had a thought: when the leak for new models was first posted, can anyone remember if it was stated if everything was for CSM, or just "Chaos"? Because some of the cultist stuff seems redundant for CSM. The Possessed Humans is the red herring: why would CSM need Possessed and Possessed Humans? Just wondering if that stuff could be for a stand alone R&H/LatD codex. That would be great IMO.


It's explicitly stated to be for CSM. Could be part of the foundation for a future LATD book, but if they were coming in their own right in 2022 then the rumours would undoubtedly have highlighted that.

As for why - GW moves in mysterious ways, so I'm not sure. I wouldn't have even expected the CSM book to have both cultists and renegade guard, let alone possessed humans and cultist characters. Remember that they like to design things in unison, so maybe possessed humans were considered an effective use of assets/the design team's time. I'd also bet that this is a good way to gauge the popularity of chaos human kits. Or maybe this is just another step in GW's efforts to differentiate CSM from SM.

In any case, being a Word Bearer player, I have to confess that I'm pretty pleased at the sound of all these gribbly minions coming alongside new possessed. The only vanilla CSM unit that I'd like to see redone which isn't on that list would be the Defiler.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 21:50:05


Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal
 ClockworkZion wrote:
And sure, I assumed too much
 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Marshal Loss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Had a thought: when the leak for new models was first posted, can anyone remember if it was stated if everything was for CSM, or just "Chaos"? Because some of the cultist stuff seems redundant for CSM. The Possessed Humans is the red herring: why would CSM need Possessed and Possessed Humans? Just wondering if that stuff could be for a stand alone R&H/LatD codex. That would be great IMO.


It's explicitly stated to be for CSM. Could be part of the foundation for a future LATD book, but if LATD were coming in their own right in 2022 then the rumours would undoubtedly have highlighted that.

Ah, ok. Thanks. I figured you'd remember . Guess we'll just have to wait and see how they incorporate three different "levels" of Possessed into one codex. Maybe: troops (Human Possessed), elites (Possessed Astartes), and HQs (Greater Possessed)? That way you could have an entire army of Possessed infantry.
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ah, ok. Thanks. I figured you'd remember


My obsession is single-handedly fueling Slaanesh at this point.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess we'll just have to wait and see how they incorporate three different "levels" of Possessed into one codex. Maybe: troops (Human Possessed), elites (Possessed Astartes), and HQs (Greater Possessed)? That way you could have an entire army of Possessed infantry.


Yeah, it's interesting to ponder. They've taken clear steps in the DG & TS books to reduce the focus on chaff, with varying degrees of success, so I'm surprised to see such a massive influx of mortals into the army. If human possessed were troops, then we'd presumably have cultists + renegade guard + gribbly humans all as non-marine troop options. If it worked in the same 1:1:1:1 way as DG/TS, that's potentially a lot of mortals per CSM choice, and even if only one/some/none of those get obsec, it's hard to imagine basic CSM being able to compete.

Can't wait to see what the possessed/possessed humans look like though, I adore both of the greater possessed sculpts so hopefully they're of comparable quality.

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal
 ClockworkZion wrote:
And sure, I assumed too much
 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess we'll just have to wait and see how they incorporate three different "levels" of Possessed into one codex. Maybe: troops (Human Possessed), elites (Possessed Astartes), and HQs (Greater Possessed)? That way you could have an entire army of Possessed infantry.


Yeah, it's interesting to ponder. They've taken clear steps in the DG & TS books to reduce the focus on chaff, with varying degrees of success, so I'm surprised to see such a massive influx of mortals into the army. If human possessed were troops, then we'd presumably have cultists + renegade guard + gribbly humans all as non-marine troop options. If it worked in the same 1:1:1:1 way as DG/TS, that's potentially a lot of mortals per CSM choice, and even if only one/some/none of those get obsec, it's hard to imagine basic CSM being able to compete.

Can't wait to see what the possessed/possessed humans look like though, I adore both of the greater possessed sculpts so hopefully they're of comparable quality.

Yeah, that's a lot of mortals (assuming a Possessed Human counts as a mortal). Maybe it's going to be a "double" codex, like the 2nd edition Chaos Codex which had CSM and Chaos World army lists. So you have the CSM section, and a shorter LatD section, which has the Traitor Guardsmen, Mutants, Possessed Humans, etc. The list of "mortal" models looks too much like the Eye of Terror LatD list. All that's missing is Big Mutants, and the Possessed Humans could fill that role. And of course the old LatD list could have some CSM units, they were just limited. And yes, before anyone says it, I know: "GW doesn't do that kind of thing anymore".
   
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

It's an interesting pivot considering the past 3 years has been them desperately trying to discourage people from taking cultists over normal CSM.

It's a welcome one though; mortal/traitor guard representation has been sorely lacking in 40k Chaos tabletop wise for too long. They're such a gigantic part of the lore and make up the bulk of the forces in any major engagement that their absence in the actual game for long periods of time has been really noticeable.

They might also be rolling them properly into CSM because they don't feel confident about them as their own faction (yet)
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

So, if we assume that the LatD stuff won't be broken off into a separate list, how do we expect this stuff to be incorporated into CSM? Going on the previous examples of Eye of Terror and IA13:

1: Traitor Guardsmen: Troops. Generally better than Cultists. Could Infiltrate in the Eye of Terror list. Focused on ranged firepower. Optional special weapons and HWTs in both EOT and IA13. Basically spikey guardsmen.

2: Mutants: Troops. Melee focused. Can be improved with Gifts of Mutation for various effects.

3: Possessed Humans: Not sure about this one. Could be Troops, but I don't see what they'd offer beyond the others. Could be Elites, but then you have three different "levels" of Possessed in the Elites slot: Humans, Astartes, and Greater Possessed.

So, even if Possessed Humans aren't Troops, we'll have four Troops options. Three of which could be considered "chaff". Hard to keep the basic CSM relevant at that point.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Depends what one does with CSM.

I really like the Action - Ritual suggestion from earlier.

There’s a lot could be done with that basic concept, and if it’s limited to CSM Core only, that gives them a unique selling point.

Example which just dropped into my head?

Ritual - Dedicate

Once this Action is completed, any friendly [Chaos] unit holding the objective has Objective Secured.

Ritual - Desecrate

Once this Action is completed, enemy units cannot benefit from Objective Secured whilst holding this objective.

Just…interesting little ways to change up the dynamic.

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I think the concept of unit actions are something that could be explored further outside the context of mission objectives.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
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San Jose, CA

The Traitor guard & cultists from BSF are excellent even if etb. Beastmen kick ass and really show how you can make a bunch look different. Electropriests are cool but samey.

If the full kits are a better layout and allow swapping of part groups I think the non-csm model representation in chaos is going up.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends what one does with CSM.

I really like the Action - Ritual suggestion from earlier.

There’s a lot could be done with that basic concept, and if it’s limited to CSM Core only, that gives them a unique selling point.

Example which just dropped into my head?

Ritual - Dedicate

Once this Action is completed, any friendly [Chaos] unit holding the objective has Objective Secured.

Ritual - Desecrate

Once this Action is completed, enemy units cannot benefit from Objective Secured whilst holding this objective.

Just…interesting little ways to change up the dynamic.

I see your point, but it would have to be something for CSM the actual unit specifically, not CSM CORE units. Otherwise players will just take the cheaper chaff Troops options and spend the rest of their points on tougher/deadlier/faster Astartes units like terminators, Warp Talons, Possessed, etc, as they've been doing for a while now. CSM themselves need something to make them worth fielding over cheaper Troops.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Well, for that? And conveniently as I was just dropping by to make this suggestion?

Let all CSM infantry squads have Chosen levels of equipment choice.

They’re not described as being as regimented as their Imperial counterparts. They’re pirates, robbers and reivers. There’s nothing and no-one enforcing set unit load outs.

You’re not a tactical squad. You’re a CSM squad. You can be armed with whatever you manage to get your hands on.

Sure, special weapons are nominally rare as such things go. But….if you and yours boarded and took a couple of IG Bulk Transports, and took out the Regiment(s) contained within? That’s….that’s a lot of potentially desirable weapons just landed in your lap.

Maybe they’re a bit small. But you don’t really care for upsetting the machine spirit, so one could with only the merest modicum of know-how jury rig a large grip and trigger system.

Likewise any Officer’s weapons such as power weapons, plasma pistols etc can be relatively easily co-opted, their arguably less wieldy nature being offset by you and your 9-19 mates having some of the best weapons readily available, and ones particularly useful against the lickspittle Loyalist lapdogs.

Just…give Chaos player’s the choice. There will of course still be a role for “Bolter and be happy with it” equipped squads, because they’d be far cheaper to field. But being able to sprinkle in properly Killy weapons as you see fit and points allow makes basic CSM highly desirable again.

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British Columbia

Evil Deathwatch as a starting point makes a lot of sense given the fractious and random make up of Warbands.

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As a throwback to HH you could also give a squad of 20CSM with Bolters a strat or an ability to shoot twice so either do your DW thing, or go full 30K Legion with Bolter Mobs.

Being realistic though I don't think squads larger than 10 Marines will be a thing in the new Codex :/
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just…give Chaos player’s the choice.
Sadly, this has been something of an eternal struggle - a Long War, if you will - for Chaos since the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex dropped.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, for that? And conveniently as I was just dropping by to make this suggestion?

Let all CSM infantry squads have Chosen levels of equipment choice.

They’re not described as being as regimented as their Imperial counterparts. They’re pirates, robbers and reivers. There’s nothing and no-one enforcing set unit load outs.

You’re not a tactical squad. You’re a CSM squad. You can be armed with whatever you manage to get your hands on.

Sure, special weapons are nominally rare as such things go. But….if you and yours boarded and took a couple of IG Bulk Transports, and took out the Regiment(s) contained within? That’s….that’s a lot of potentially desirable weapons just landed in your lap.

Maybe they’re a bit small. But you don’t really care for upsetting the machine spirit, so one could with only the merest modicum of know-how jury rig a large grip and trigger system.

Likewise any Officer’s weapons such as power weapons, plasma pistols etc can be relatively easily co-opted, their arguably less wieldy nature being offset by you and your 9-19 mates having some of the best weapons readily available, and ones particularly useful against the lickspittle Loyalist lapdogs.

Just…give Chaos player’s the choice. There will of course still be a role for “Bolter and be happy with it” equipped squads, because they’d be far cheaper to field. But being able to sprinkle in properly Killy weapons as you see fit and points allow makes basic CSM highly desirable again.

I like that idea. Unfortunately, it bumps into gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" policy. But.....having seen the new Black Templars upgrade sprue, and things like the Necromunda gang upgrade kits, I think they could do it. Now, whether or not gw would actually give CSM that level of support is the question....
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Or just let them have greater access to Special Weapons than their Loyalist contemporaries. It doesn’t need to be “everyone can take anything”. That can be the preserve of Chosen, as they were in 3.5.

Say, up to four Special Weapons per squad. With a minimum unit size of 5, maximum of 20? You can then field MSU for filthy levels of firepower in fairly fragile squads, or just horde it up with the traditional load out, and everything in between

Whichever way it might shake out, there remains no reason for basic CSM to be so bloody basic.

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Hmm. The CSM kit includes enough special weapons for 3 per squad + 1 heavy weapon + whatever the champion has. Havocs, Raptors, and presumably the new Chosen add more bits, so that's definitely doable, if gw goes down the "you get what you can steal from other kits" approach they used for SoB. Yeah, it could work. I'd still like to see an upgrade sprue for CSM for easier access to the requisite bits, especially the more "rare" options (*cough* chaincannons *cough*). And actual Legion upgrade kits of the same caliber as the new Black Templars kit would be great. But not required to do this.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or just let them have greater access to Special Weapons than their Loyalist contemporaries. It doesn’t need to be “everyone can take anything”. That can be the preserve of Chosen, as they were in 3.5.

Say, up to four Special Weapons per squad. With a minimum unit size of 5, maximum of 20? You can then field MSU for filthy levels of firepower in fairly fragile squads, or just horde it up with the traditional load out, and everything in between

Whichever way it might shake out, there remains no reason for basic CSM to be so bloody basic.


I've always liked the idea of CSM being on average lower-tech than Imperial Marines due to their fractured nature and spotty access to logistics, but still trying to arm themselves to the teeth out of sheer personal interest in murder rather than tactical doctrine. So they'd have heavy stubbers and grenade launchers and similar weapons that are widely available for all military forces in the galaxy, because they're easy to steal and easy to set up machinery on your ship for maintenance and ammo production. The higher-up CSM would have the more choice weaponry funneled to them and champions would be able to get some truly weird and rare stuff. To say nothing of what any techmarines might be able to cook up when freed from Imperial weapons ideology.


So a pretty typical CSM would have a mostly functional suit of power armour, a main weapon of autogun/boltgun/machine gun/heavy machine gun/grenade launcher depending on how lucky they are, maybe something similar to an uzi or submachine gun, a couple of autopistols, a bolt pistol, a laspistol for truly desperate times, a knife, an axe, an assortment of explosives (fragmentation grenades from three different worlds, a mine, some jury-rigged explosives on a string for anti-tank work) with the smaller guns being simply discarded when they run out of bullets

while the leader of their squad might have a plasma pistol, a meltagun and a chainsword plus some rad grenades and a bolt pistol


Each unit is less of a thoughtfully considered cog in a greater tactical machine and more of a small warband that does what it does out of perverse interest in a particular range of fighting.
   
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I'd really prefer reg csm getting the chosen keyword for a cp(as much as I hate cp) similar to veteran intercessors before they were an elite choice in codex.

That way you could have normal csm but then toss a cp at them and now you can take 4 specials or something similar.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Racerguy180 wrote:
I'd really prefer reg csm getting the chosen keyword for a cp(as much as I hate cp) similar to veteran intercessors before they were an elite choice in codex.

That way you could have normal csm but then toss a cp at them and now you can take 4 specials or something similar.

Um, no thanks. My tanks and dreadnoughts already cost CP, I don't need my infantry getting the same treatment. Any improvements to CSM should cost points. The value of 1CP is too variable: its value can change from list to list, game to game, which is one of the problems with the whole CP/strategem system. 20 points is always just 20 points.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I’m still keen on CSM squads of all stripes having a selection of Unit Champion options, representing that a given squad could be a warband unto itself, gathered under the banner of a stronger leader for mutual interest, however temporarily.

Combined with my suggestion of a wider choice of weapon load out, it’s then really in the hands of the player what their army looks like.

Is it a fragmentary remnant of the original Legions, maintaining some form of military discipline? Or is a loose alliance of rival Champions and their followers? Somewhere in between.

Kind of like the 8th Ed Dark Eldar book, but without the need to take multiple formations, as the decision can be made on a squad to squad basis.

This would help make Chaos more of an unknown quantity, as army composition might vary quite wildly from one player to the next.

I mean, consider Loyalist Astartes right now. Specific Chapters aside? Who knows what you might be facing. A pre-8th Ed Firstborn army? All Vanguard? A list with heavy infiltration capabilities? Dread horde? So many units, so many options.

CSM deserve the same depth of variety, and that needn’t involve lots and lots of new units. Just existing units have a wide selection of Killy things with which to make the foe dead in the face from not being alive anymore.

Will that CSM squad be a handful of hardened lunatics lead by someone with the stats of a SM Lieutenant? Is it instead gonna be 20 bog standard Goon Marines lead by someone just starting out on their own path to glory?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
 
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