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Voss wrote: Dispersed shot is better against greater daemons. And DE transports and heavy infantry. And a lot of things, really.
Once you factor in invulnerable saves and how S16 is meaningless against anything below T7, you're better off sitting back and blasting.
You want to do dispersed the vast majority of the time, because then the odd CP reroll / miracle die / etc is weighed far less heavily on the end result.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: At least you’re not CSM still rocking the second codex of 8th?
I'm a Chaos player. And a Tyranid player. I know what it feels like.
(In fact it's often quicker to list the armies I don't have - Sisters, Chaos Knights, DA/BA/BT/IF/IH/RG/Sallies/Wolves, Grey Knights and technically Dark Eldar, even though I have a bunch of minis for them, but they're for the 40kRPG, not for 40k)
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: But it is funny that the faction with technology that makes a mockery of space-time is getting out done by make mass for fast.
The Railgun has a very silly set of rules. I could almost live with it if it weren't for the "ignore invuls" thing, both because conceptually that makes zero sense why that weapon would have that ability, and because it just starts a new war of escalation in exceptions to exceptions to exceptions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/14 02:36:39
Voss wrote: Dispersed shot is better against greater daemons. And DE transports and heavy infantry. And a lot of things, really.
Once you factor in invulnerable saves and how S16 is meaningless against anything below T7, you're better off sitting back and blasting.
You want to do dispersed the vast majority of the time, because then the odd CP reroll / miracle die / etc is weighed far less heavily on the end result.
Basically, yeah. There are cases where you want the focused blast (like a T8, 3+ vehicle with no invulnerable save), but losing half the damage for one failure (or enemy success) on the string of 3 or more die rolls is a bad strategy.
Or strats. It sucks a little when someone pulls a 'gotcha' on a Damage 4 shot, but its grueling when they play a trap card for a 12 damage shot.
Its one of those weapon options where you can just straight-up do the mathhammer and come up with an obvious answer, and then minimize risk accordingly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: At least Necrons got a codex this edition. There are lots of players waiting for their (soon to be hybrid) 9th/10th editions codices.
Meh. Better to wait. The necron miniature line got a lot of benefit out of being first, but the codex was screwed over way too fast by the paradigm shifts. d3+3 or 3d3 snuck onto a total of 4 weapons (one of which is on the new version of the screwed-over LoW Monolith and another is on a character), and now that kind of damage improvement gets handed out like candy (and is now officially Old News, with a new plateau to beat), and necron defensive abilities got pretty trashed (old quantum shielding would have been godly against the new weapons).
And honestly, it was obvious it was going to suffer by being first, and it ended up with far too many new units that have the same role as old units (or other new units, which is just... baffling).
Then there's the word salad for command protocols and res protocols (which gaks multi-wound units)... I just don't know what they were thinking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 04:44:50
Confirmed at BS4+, degrading to 6+.
Leaks are a bit unclear on point costs, but it seems quite low. As far as I understood, 145 base, 175 with weapons.
Markerlights can give it +1 to hit, but they became quite a lot harder to apply (can't move and shoot them).
This would make them decent without being broken, but there is indeed one big big issue.
Tau sept can reroll one wound roll per unit, and THAT makes Railguns very very good. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be the sept of choice.
Voss wrote: I just don't know what they were thinking.
they gave a clear answer to that during the 10th Edition video interview: "we have a new crazy idea every 2 minutes, and now we have the possibilities to put all those ideas into the game"
I guess no one thought they are serious with that statement, but it looks like that their game design is exactly that, a random collection of crazy ideas
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Void__Dragon wrote: You misunderstand the problem friend. It is because Tau are a mono-phase army that makes their previews worrying. Instead of fixing the fundamental flaws in Tau's binary playstyle, GW just appears to want to buff their shooting. Either their shooting won't be enough and they'll continue to be bad, or they'll be overbearing like Admech planes before the nerf. The game has outgrown armies that only play the game in the shooting phase. Unfortunately most Tau fans in my experience are delusional about how poorly-designed their army really is.
Nah man, you just don't get it. I have it on good authority that anything but increasing the shooting output of Tau is only a small step away from having a single codex for all factions.
Confirmed at BS4+, degrading to 6+.
Leaks are a bit unclear on point costs, but it seems quite low. As far as I understood, 145 base, 175 with weapons.
Markerlights can give it +1 to hit, but they became quite a lot harder to apply (can't move and shoot them).
This would make them decent without being broken, but there is indeed one big big issue.
Tau sept can reroll one wound roll per unit, and THAT makes Railguns very very good. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be the sept of choice.
Less than a Fire Prism or Tank Commander, with access to both +1 to hit and reliable RR to wound (from the very same Sept as Longstrike).
Confirmed at BS4+, degrading to 6+.
Leaks are a bit unclear on point costs, but it seems quite low. As far as I understood, 145 base, 175 with weapons.
Markerlights can give it +1 to hit, but they became quite a lot harder to apply (can't move and shoot them).
This would make them decent without being broken, but there is indeed one big big issue.
Tau sept can reroll one wound roll per unit, and THAT makes Railguns very very good. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be the sept of choice.
Less than a Fire Prism or Tank Commander, with access to both +1 to hit and reliable RR to wound (from the very same Sept as Longstrike).
Neat.
HH doesn't have any optional wargear, right? So really it's a minimum of 175? That's more than a Fire Prism and the same as a TC, though obviously the TC goes up when you pay for the weapons you want. We don't know how the +1 to hit works exactly so I'm not sure we can really comment on it.
According to the leaks the HH is 145 naked, 155 with either 2x SMS or 2x Burst cannons (no idea how much with drones instead). Ion cannon costs 10 more, each one use only Seeker missile costs 5.
It's likely it will be 155 with the most common loadout (165 if you want seekers).
T'au Sept offers 1 free reroll per unit (either to hit or to wound) and Longstrike (no idea how much he costs), who can let a single HH nearby count has having one markerlight (+1 to hit now).
Farsight Enclaves also give 1 free wound reroll per unit, apparently.
Aenar wrote: According to the leaks the HH is 145 naked, 155 with either 2x SMS or 2x Burst cannons (no idea how much with drones instead). Ion cannon costs 10 more, each one use only Seeker missile costs 5.
It's likely it will be 155 with the most common loadout (165 if you want seekers).
T'au Sept offers 1 free reroll per unit (either to hit or to wound) and Longstrike (no idea how much he costs), who can let a single HH nearby count has having one markerlight (+1 to hit now).
Farsight Enclaves also give 1 free wound reroll per unit, apparently.
Nice.
Glad to see all the folks who said the sky was falling were completely wrong, and there's definitely no access to +1 to-hit, no easy access to wound rerolls, and certainly not on a platform under 160 points.
Aenar wrote: According to the leaks the HH is 145 naked, 155 with either 2x SMS or 2x Burst cannons (no idea how much with drones instead). Ion cannon costs 10 more, each one use only Seeker missile costs 5.
It's likely it will be 155 with the most common loadout (165 if you want seekers).
T'au Sept offers 1 free reroll per unit (either to hit or to wound) and Longstrike (no idea how much he costs), who can let a single HH nearby count has having one markerlight (+1 to hit now).
Farsight Enclaves also give 1 free wound reroll per unit, apparently.
Nice.
Glad to see all the folks who said the sky was falling were completely wrong, and there's definitely no access to +1 to-hit, no easy access to wound rerolls, and certainly not on a platform under 160 points.
Wait a minute... all three of those things are true!. Oh you rascal.
Aenar wrote: According to the leaks the HH is 145 naked, 155 with either 2x SMS or 2x Burst cannons (no idea how much with drones instead). Ion cannon costs 10 more, each one use only Seeker missile costs 5.
It's likely it will be 155 with the most common loadout (165 if you want seekers).
Gladiator Lancer is 180 pts minimum. Because worse tank with its SCARY s10 ap-3 Dd3+3 gun warranted 20% points premium over HH.
Aenar wrote: According to the leaks the HH is 145 naked, 155 with either 2x SMS or 2x Burst cannons (no idea how much with drones instead). Ion cannon costs 10 more, each one use only Seeker missile costs 5.
It's likely it will be 155 with the most common loadout (165 if you want seekers).
T'au Sept offers 1 free reroll per unit (either to hit or to wound) and Longstrike (no idea how much he costs), who can let a single HH nearby count has having one markerlight (+1 to hit now).
Farsight Enclaves also give 1 free wound reroll per unit, apparently.
Nice.
Glad to see all the folks who said the sky was falling were completely wrong, and there's definitely no access to +1 to-hit, no easy access to wound rerolls, and certainly not on a platform under 160 points.
I guess we're ignoring that it's BS4 and that +1 to Hit is for one model and is at the cost of another model entirely. The Markerlight system is still a bit of a mystery and whether or not T'au Sept is the go to is up in the air.
Assuming Longstrike plus a HH both equating to BS3 from abilities and rerolling all hits and wounds the end result is this:
6.9% dead ( up from 4% )
4.3% unharmed
33.4% 12 to 14 wounds
55.4% 1 to 4 wounds
The HH does not have the option to not take drones. As it sounds like prices are not dropping much then Longstrike will still be about 200. This means 350+ points to ace a 450 point model 7% of the time.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 17:44:56
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH does not have the option to not take drones. As it sounds like prices are not dropping much then Longstrike will still be about 200. This means 350+ points to ace a 450 point model 7% of the time.
You mean 64% of the time, because Knight at 1-4 wounds has BS 5-6 and M6, so can be safely ignored and/or plinked to 0 by remaining 100+ points. An INSANELY high probability for way too cheap. And you mean 450-700 pts model depending on type/upgrades, making the above ratio far worse. And most likely wrong on Longstrike not getting cut/upgrades too. Soo...
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH does not have the option to not take drones. As it sounds like prices are not dropping much then Longstrike will still be about 200. This means 350+ points to ace a 450 point model 7% of the time.
You mean 64% of the time, because Knight at 1-4 wounds has BS 5-6 and M6, so can be safely ignored and/or plinked to 0 by remaining 100+ points. An INSANELY high probability for way too cheap. And you mean 450-700 pts model depending on type/upgrades, making the above ratio far worse. And most likely wrong on Longstrike not getting cut/upgrades too. Soo...
a 1 wound knight will function at full power because there is a strat specifically for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 18:12:12
"Don't worry, it will probably be over 200 pts and super fragile for cost" "don't worry, it's a lot riding on very few dice rolls without access to many buffs"
Later, after it has access to rerolls to wound, rerolls to hit, +1 to hit, and only costs 160 points (and yes, it can not take drones. The Burst Cannons / SMS replace the drones on the model, so unless it's getting a new kit...):
"It's not that bad anyways"
Mind factoring in a CP reroll on one of those damage rolls, daedalus? Just curious about those last few wounds. After all, it's the only thing on the hammerhead that doesn't reroll, so far, anyways...
Ordana wrote: a 1 wound knight will function at full power because there is a strat specifically for that.
A one-wound knight dies to 12 Firewarriors at 36" on average, and very nearly dies to 6 of them at 36" if they have +1 to-hit from a Markerlight and a single hit or wound reroll from their sept.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/14 18:46:29
Oh Knights are definitely fethed. But with the loss of FTGG, loss of savior protocols and the nerfs to Riptides (no 3++, Nova reactor can stop working), a list that runs all HH and SS is going to be eaten alive by the fast melee armies of 9th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 19:02:42
A further skew towards "if you shoot first, you have a high chance just to roll up a win".
Still not totally convinced its a step up on existing stuff - and it may not work competitively because of the fact that if you go second it may all be too slow.
My guess is that the Knight books that will come later down the line will have something that reduces damage, gives them a ward save, or there is a limit on how many wounds a single weapon can deal to them.
Ultimately the problem is that 8th level codices are just on a very different power level than 9th so comparing those two is a moot point at this point. Knights are woefully outdated at this point which I feel every time I field one. What I am more interested in seeing is how the Tau codex deals with 9th edition codexes and how much auto-delete I can expect on Mortarion.
"Don't worry, it will probably be over 200 pts and super fragile for cost"
"don't worry, it's a lot riding on very few dice rolls without access to many buffs"
Later, after it has access to rerolls to wound, rerolls to hit, +1 to hit, and only costs 160 points (and yes, it can not take drones. The Burst Cannons / SMS replace the drones on the model, so unless it's getting a new kit...):
"It's not that bad anyways"
Mind factoring in a CP reroll on one of those damage rolls, daedalus? Just curious about those last few wounds. After all, it's the only thing on the hammerhead that doesn't reroll, so far, anyways...
Ordana wrote: a 1 wound knight will function at full power because there is a strat specifically for that.
A one-wound knight dies to 12 Firewarriors at 36" on average, and very nearly dies to 6 of them at 36" if they have +1 to-hit from a Markerlight and a single hit or wound reroll from their sept.
This isn't what most people were saying and your deliberately misrepresenting arguments.
"Don't worry, it will probably be over 200 pts and super fragile for cost"
"don't worry, it's a lot riding on very few dice rolls without access to many buffs"
Later, after it has access to rerolls to wound, rerolls to hit, +1 to hit, and only costs 160 points (and yes, it can not take drones. The Burst Cannons / SMS replace the drones on the model, so unless it's getting a new kit...):
"It's not that bad anyways"
Mind factoring in a CP reroll on one of those damage rolls, daedalus? Just curious about those last few wounds. After all, it's the only thing on the hammerhead that doesn't reroll, so far, anyways...
Ordana wrote: a 1 wound knight will function at full power because there is a strat specifically for that.
A one-wound knight dies to 12 Firewarriors at 36" on average, and very nearly dies to 6 of them at 36" if they have +1 to-hit from a Markerlight and a single hit or wound reroll from their sept.
This isn't what most people were saying and your deliberately misrepresenting arguments.
Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH does not have the option to not take drones. As it sounds like prices are not dropping much then Longstrike will still be about 200. This means 350+ points to ace a 450 point model 7% of the time.
You mean 64% of the time, because Knight at 1-4 wounds has BS 5-6 and M6, so can be safely ignored and/or plinked to 0 by remaining 100+ points. An INSANELY high probability for way too cheap. And you mean 450-700 pts model depending on type/upgrades, making the above ratio far worse. And most likely wrong on Longstrike not getting cut/upgrades too. Soo...
"Upgrades" like being a totally different knight of knight with 28 to 30 wounds with a main gun that can clear through a HH on it's own? Kay.
Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.
Well, you did leave out a lot of the blather about percentages and charts (that weren't actually helpful); and of course 'terrain is magic and will stop them from being a threat while leaving them in charge range of the entire table but too far away to benefit from mont'ka.'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 19:41:29
"Don't worry, it will probably be over 200 pts and super fragile for cost"
"don't worry, it's a lot riding on very few dice rolls without access to many buffs"
Later, after it has access to rerolls to wound, rerolls to hit, +1 to hit, and only costs 160 points (and yes, it can not take drones. The Burst Cannons / SMS replace the drones on the model, so unless it's getting a new kit...):
"It's not that bad anyways"
Mind factoring in a CP reroll on one of those damage rolls, daedalus? Just curious about those last few wounds. After all, it's the only thing on the hammerhead that doesn't reroll, so far, anyways...
Ordana wrote: a 1 wound knight will function at full power because there is a strat specifically for that.
A one-wound knight dies to 12 Firewarriors at 36" on average, and very nearly dies to 6 of them at 36" if they have +1 to-hit from a Markerlight and a single hit or wound reroll from their sept.
This isn't what most people were saying and your deliberately misrepresenting arguments.
Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.
I'll bite. Its still frail, it's still a swingy unit, it did drop to bs4 base so that +1 to hit is a net break even. You're relying on 1 specific Sept for the reroll which, frankly, doesn't seem the best one imo.
I still don't expect to see people taking 4 of them 24/7.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.
LOL, considering I'm like one of the only dissenting opinion since this revelation I'll ask you to direct quote me where I said those things.
You aren't one of the only dissenting opinions on this, so constraining it to "only things I said" is being silly. You KNOW people were saying what I typed. That's why you've offered this artificial constraint. You didn't even chime into the original thread until what, like a third of the way through? 5 pages in? something like that.
"Don't worry, it will probably be over 200 pts and super fragile for cost" "don't worry, it's a lot riding on very few dice rolls without access to many buffs"
Later, after it has access to rerolls to wound, rerolls to hit, +1 to hit, and only costs 160 points (and yes, it can not take drones. The Burst Cannons / SMS replace the drones on the model, so unless it's getting a new kit...):
"It's not that bad anyways"
Mind factoring in a CP reroll on one of those damage rolls, daedalus? Just curious about those last few wounds. After all, it's the only thing on the hammerhead that doesn't reroll, so far, anyways...
Ordana wrote: a 1 wound knight will function at full power because there is a strat specifically for that.
A one-wound knight dies to 12 Firewarriors at 36" on average, and very nearly dies to 6 of them at 36" if they have +1 to-hit from a Markerlight and a single hit or wound reroll from their sept.
This isn't what most people were saying and your deliberately misrepresenting arguments.
Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.
I'll bite. Its still frail, it's still a swingy unit, it did drop to bs4 base so that +1 to hit is a net break even. You're relying on 1 specific Sept for the reroll which, frankly, doesn't seem the best one imo.
I still don't expect to see people taking 4 of them 24/7.
Let me rehash what I said before in the earlier thread: 1) Glasshammer 40k is not a fun game.
2) 3+ with reroll, 3/2+ with reroll, ignores all saves isn't swingy.
3) "Net break even" if you just ignore the free hit reroll I guess.
4) Congrats on finding a new argument! Oh wait, it's not new, Longstrike has been T'au sept forever so we were always constraining ourselves to the T'au sept (if the argument included Longstrike). The fact that the T'au sept happens to be "you get a free wound reroll per unit!" on a unit with a single shot gun that kills 4 models/does 10-12 wounds with no saves of any kind allowed is just icing on the cake.
Also, Farsight Enclaves includes a wound rr as well according to this rumor.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/14 20:03:44
Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.
Well, you did leave out a lot of the blather about percentages and charts (that weren't actually helpful); and of course 'terrain is magic and will stop them from being a threat while leaving them in charge range of the entire table but too far away to benefit from mont'ka.'
Right. Right. Hey guys. Does anyone else remember when Eradicators were the most broken unit ever? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Eldar 
Imperial Guard 
Space Marines
