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I've been giving the durability issue some thought, what about folding the trenches/defense lines/bunkers formally into the IG rules? Something like this:

Defense Line: For 20 points an Infantry Squad may take a defense line no more than 12"x1/2". It is deployed with the squad and cannot move during the game. Models behind the line get a +2 save against attacks from the front.

Now guardsmen can have 3+ saves but only behind a non-moving defense line and only in 1 direction.

Add to that:

Bunker: For 40 points an Infantry Squad may take a bunker no more than 8"x8". It is deployed with the squad and cannot move during the game. Models inside the bunker get a +2 save against all attacks.

So double the points and get all-around protection. Keep the rules simple, no rules for access points, blowing up bunkers etc. Since it's a flat armor save boosts things like las cannons and power fist still tear through it.

So these give guardsmen significant saves without needing new models or changing the character of the army. Plus it gives GW a new way to sell Aegis lines and Walls O'Dead Cadians and that's always good right?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I've been giving the durability issue some thought, what about folding the trenches/defense lines/bunkers formally into the IG rules? Something like this:

Defense Line: For 20 points an Infantry Squad may take a defense line no more than 12"x1/2". It is deployed with the squad and cannot move during the game. Models behind the line get a +2 save against attacks from the front.

Now guardsmen can have 3+ saves but only behind a non-moving defense line and only in 1 direction.

Add to that:

Bunker: For 40 points an Infantry Squad may take a bunker no more than 8"x8". It is deployed with the squad and cannot move during the game. Models inside the bunker get a +2 save against all attacks.

So double the points and get all-around protection. Keep the rules simple, no rules for access points, blowing up bunkers etc. Since it's a flat armor save boosts things like las cannons and power fist still tear through it.

So these give guardsmen significant saves without needing new models or changing the character of the army. Plus it gives GW a new way to sell Aegis lines and Walls O'Dead Cadians and that's always good right?

How about instead of inventing totally new things, we use the fortifications GW has already given us? *Edit: just read it and realized there could be some harsh tone here, none is intended.

Like, what if the Guard are the Imperial force that makes best use of them?

Oh yeah, that's what I mean. Instead of treating fortifications as a separate type of unit, just make them an option for IG squads just like weapons or transports.

(they could even add, units with a defense line cannot take a transport)

And by just making it a flat +2 to save you don't need to create new stats and rules for bunkers and walls and trenches, it's just like paying points for extra armor.

How about we nerf the Hammer of the Emperor so that All Conscript lists don't become the new only viable way to play Guard?

Here's a couple: Don't give whiteshields auto-pass order rolls. Make it a strat cost, once per game.

Make Conscripts non-las weapons, i.E Autogun, or something that doesn't trigger HotE.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Make Conscripts non-las weapons, i.E Autogun, or something that doesn't trigger HotE.

You do know that HotE is not dependent upon las weapons, right? It works on any shooting attack. So giving the conscripts autoguns won't do anything. Besides, GW doesn't even make a Guard kit with autoguns....
You'd be better off petitioning GW to add Conscript/Whiteshield to the short list HotE doesn't apply to.

I mean, HotE is, presumably, a band aid that GW will rip off in the new codex (no clue what they'd replace it with but there's plenty of suggestions above)... although I could also see it being here to stay I suppose

(And besides, if everyone goes all in anti horde to counter guard then vehicles can be good again...right?...right?...please? rofl)

Another way to fix the Guard army is to actually get rid of things.

For example, if you go back to the original rules and points costs that were published in the codex many units would have a better utility.

Commissars aren't terribly useful at the moment, but they were very useful so useful that their rules were "adapted" into uselessness.

I'm a bit confused when people say points changes aren't the way to fix things. They totally are. A strong expensive unit will see less play than a strong cheap unit.

There are some very good units in other codeci that never see play, because there are better cheaper units. Look at how many nerfs the Drukari codex survived, each time the strongest unit was toned down they moved to the next set of strong units.

If conscripts cost 3points per model (as they did originally), guard would be the top meta army, as the 300 conscripts would only cost 900pts leaving considerable room for other support units.

^ this. To make Guard useful right now we need massive point drops. Like 10 - 20% across the board.

To be honest. I don't see Commissars morale abilities being buffed at all in the next codex. Look at Orks, basically was neutered of all their morale abilities. If Commissars get buffed I predict GW will just make them better combat characters with the support abilities they currently have.

Jarms48 wrote:
^ this. To make Guard useful right now we need massive point drops. Like 10 - 20% across the board.

To be honest. I don't see Commissars morale abilities being buffed at all in the next codex. Look at Orks, basically was neutered of all their morale abilities. If Commissars get buffed I predict GW will just make them better combat characters with the support abilities they currently have.

Yes, lets make Conscripts with auto-wounds on 6s 3ppm instead of 5. Lets make Guardsmen who get free plasma rifles and HWTs 5ppm. Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

Make Lasguns S2 to compensate for HotE.

Make HWTs unable to fire after moving.

Make LR double shooting standard, on all variants, if they haven't moved that turn.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

they might actually be playable at that points cost

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

they might actually be playable at that points cost

Still pretty overcosted to things like the Stormsurge, but that would probably at least make them playable in casual games without being an active detriment to your army.

Jarms48 wrote:
^ this. To make Guard useful right now we need massive point drops. Like 10 - 20% across the board.

To be honest. I don't see Commissars morale abilities being buffed at all in the next codex. Look at Orks, basically was neutered of all their morale abilities. If Commissars get buffed I predict GW will just make them better combat characters with the support abilities they currently have.

Agreed, I played against tyranids last night and it occurred to me that a Tyrannofex is LITERALLY BETTER IN EVERY WAY to a Tank Commander. Its cheaper, more wounds, has much better weapons, better access to rules, AND its not giving up assassination. Rupture cannons were wrecking my armigers and I realize that even a properly kitted out Commander isn't going to get close to that kind of shooting output and its less points somehow.

brainpsyk wrote:

Guard isn't hard to get back in the game, Guard just need to break out of the 8th edition paradigm.

Implying that Guard were ever in the 8th edition paradigm, lol.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
^ this. To make Guard useful right now we need massive point drops. Like 10 - 20% across the board.

To be honest. I don't see Commissars morale abilities being buffed at all in the next codex. Look at Orks, basically was neutered of all their morale abilities. If Commissars get buffed I predict GW will just make them better combat characters with the support abilities they currently have.

Yes, lets make Conscripts with auto-wounds on 6s 3ppm instead of 5. Lets make Guardsmen who get free plasma rifles and HWTs 5ppm. Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

Make Lasguns S2 to compensate for HotE.

Make HWTs unable to fire after moving.

Make LR double shooting standard, on all variants, if they haven't moved that turn.

You are saying if you played 2300 points vs a top tier 2000 point army you would crush it? Because they is what a 15% discount would be in effect.

What I'm saying is that units that have troop rules, 30 ablative wounds, and as WhiteShields get Auto-FRFSRF, for 90 points per unit, is foolish. It's currently what someone is doing in the Meta right now, with 10 30man squads of White Shields. You can do that, but have fun when I quit 2nd round and force you to waste the time re-packing all 300+ models back in your box. Hope that was worth it.

Are we really back to complaining about horde armies, everyone has the tools to deal with them.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Are we really back to complaining about horde armies, everyone has the tools to deal with them.

Not every event has chess clocks. Which is by far the most important tool to have available when facing a horde army.

Anyone bringing a horde army to a competitive scene, especially in this environment, is going to know how to play them quickly. Ask any ork player worth their salt how fast they can move boy blobs.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What I'm saying is that units that have troop rules, 30 ablative wounds, and as WhiteShields get Auto-FRFSRF, for 90 points per unit, is foolish. It's currently what someone is doing in the Meta right now, with 10 30man squads of White Shields. You can do that, but have fun when I quit 2nd round and force you to waste the time re-packing all 300+ models back in your box. Hope that was worth it.

While I agree the whole 300 conscripts is a (poor) meme army, he's got those 300 conscripts on 10 trays, so he just packs those 10 trays away and is done. The downside is that his pack for carrying all of those models is like 60 lbs (27 kilos).

Guard need more than just a points cut at this point. Looking at a Carnifex with a Stranglethorn Cannon, it's got a D3+3 shot battlecannon at BS4 for 110 points, is far more durable despite being 9W (so it only gives up 1 BID point), and isn't 100% useless in melee for 25% less points than a LRBT. It can even be AP3 for 115 points. Even a 30% points cut at this point isn't unreasonable, and we'd still struggle. They could increase the points cost of that Carnifex by that 25%, and the Carnifex would still be better than the LRBT. And yet the Carnifex is still just a distraction from the real threats.

What if...and here me out...guard are fine and everything else needs to be nerfed and have significantly simpler rules?

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
What if...and here me out...guard are fine and everything else needs to be nerfed and have significantly simpler rules?

I'm not totally opposed to the idea that most armies could lose some of their rules bloat and have some of their power toned down a bit, but Guard are definitely not fine. The internal balancing of the codex is terrible, and even if other armies were toned down a little, Guard still don't have a realistic way to play 9th edition that doesn't reward their opponent 15 VP just for playing against Guard.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
What if...and here me out...guard are fine and everything else needs to be nerfed and have significantly simpler rules?

I'm not totally opposed to the idea that most armies could lose some of their rules bloat and have some of their power toned down a bit, but Guard are definitely not fine. The internal balancing of the codex is terrible, and even if other armies were toned down a little, Guard still don't have a realistic way to play 9th edition that doesn't reward their opponent 15 VP just for playing against Guard.

That's a fair assessment. I was really just highlighting that most 9th edition codices are either overpowered and/or have an excessive amount of complex rules bloat and neither is particularly desirable, imho

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
What if...and here me out...guard are fine and everything else needs to be nerfed and have significantly simpler rules?

I'm not totally opposed to the idea that most armies could lose some of their rules bloat and have some of their power toned down a bit, but Guard are definitely not fine. The internal balancing of the codex is terrible, and even if other armies were toned down a little, Guard still don't have a realistic way to play 9th edition that doesn't reward their opponent 15 VP just for playing against Guard.

That's a fair assessment. I was really just highlighting that most 9th edition codices are either overpowered and/or have an excessive amount of complex rules bloat and neither is particularly desirable, imho

I think that's an okay START, but I really think the imbalance is too inherent in the system. How in Charles Darwin's Bushy tit are you going to balance something like Custodes against something like IG? Honestly. Saying balance the edition right now, is like saying "grab a mop" after the hurricane has past thru and torn the place asunder. A Mop's not gonna fix this, we need to burn it down and start over. I suggest we stop playing 40k and go to play OPR instead.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Yes, lets make Conscripts with auto-wounds on 6s 3ppm instead of 5. Lets make Guardsmen who get free plasma rifles and HWTs 5ppm. Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

You really misunderstand me sometimes, did I say anything about removing the 5 point floor? No.

I’m purely talking about internal balance. You made a list of units that were useless previously. I’m basically suggesting things like those need a 10 - 20% decrease.

Also, Baneblades would still be gak at 350 points. They’re too large to move around 9th edition terrain layouts. Do less damage than 2 Leman Russ tanks and have less durability than 2 Leman Russ tanks. Even at 350 they’d still be more expensive than Stormsurges. Lol.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
What if...and here me out...guard are fine and everything else needs to be nerfed and have significantly simpler rules?

I'm not totally opposed to the idea that most armies could lose some of their rules bloat and have some of their power toned down a bit, but Guard are definitely not fine. The internal balancing of the codex is terrible, and even if other armies were toned down a little, Guard still don't have a realistic way to play 9th edition that doesn't reward their opponent 15 VP just for playing against Guard.

That's a fair assessment. I was really just highlighting that most 9th edition codices are either overpowered and/or have an excessive amount of complex rules bloat and neither is particularly desirable, imho

I think that's an okay START, but I really think the imbalance is too inherent in the system. How in Charles Darwin's Bushy tit are you going to balance something like Custodes against something like IG? Honestly. Saying balance the edition right now, is like saying "grab a mop" after the hurricane has past thru and torn the place asunder. A Mop's not gonna fix this, we need to burn it down and start over. I suggest we stop playing 40k and go to play OPR instead.

Starting a fire in the aftermath of a major hurricane is a bad idea as emergency services will already be stretched thin and infrastructure, such as water mains, will likely be inoperable. A mop is the first step in piecing things back together.

Poor metaphor aside, this wouldn't be an overnight change. Guard would hopefully get a small boost (preferably on the defense side of things) and internal rebalancing. Then 10th edition would be about GW undoing this mess.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
What if...and here me out...guard are fine and everything else needs to be nerfed and have significantly simpler rules?

That's the obvious solution, but booooooooooooy it would generate enough salt to make Earth uninhabitable for centuries...

Jarms48 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Yes, lets make Conscripts with auto-wounds on 6s 3ppm instead of 5. Lets make Guardsmen who get free plasma rifles and HWTs 5ppm. Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

You really misunderstand me sometimes, did I say anything about removing the 5 point floor? No.

I’m purely talking about internal balance. You made a list of units that were useless previously. I’m basically suggesting things like those need a 10 - 20% decrease.

Also, Baneblades would still be gak at 350 points. They’re too large to move around 9th edition terrain layouts. Do less damage than 2 Leman Russ tanks and have less durability than 2 Leman Russ tanks. Even at 350 they’d still be more expensive than Stormsurges. Lol.

To make Guard useful right now we need massive point drops. Like 10 - 20% across the board.

How was I supposed to understand this? Now that you've been called out on this ridiculous brain fart, you're shifting the goal posts. You never mentioned it, because you're exact words were, "across the board". Perhaps be more selective in the future?

Have you not seen my document? That I’ve posted countless times, even have an entire thread dedicated to it, or my other posts saying what the point costs of things should be. That you’ve actually replied to.

To refresh your memory here’s some examples of what I said:

Leman Russ:
- Vanquisher: 110 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Eradicator and Exterminator: 115 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Executioner: 120 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Battle Tank: 125 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Demolisher and Punisher: 130 points (with hull heavy bolter)

Hellhound:
- Bane Wolf: 85 points
- Devil Dog: 90 points
- Hellhound: 100 points.

Artillery:
- Basilisk, Deathstrike, and Wyvern: 110 points
- Manticore: 130 points

Transports:
- Taurox: 75 points

Basically all Guard vehicles are incredibly overcosted for what they do. Not once have I ever suggested to go below the 5 point floor.

5 point floor is sort of a silly concept, I’m all for removing it.

Frankly, I've said it hundreds of times...

The solution is and always will be making Infantry Squads better. Make Conscripts trash, like they should be. They should be the "Cultist"/"Grot" equivalent of the book.