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 whembly wrote:

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

Rubrics dont get ICON.

 whembly wrote:

Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

It's not the All is Dust rule itself, but losing the capacity to reduce D2 down to D1 to allow AiD to trigger.

A disintegrator Ravager would pop two CSM Rubrics in cover as opposed to doing a single wound against TS Rubrics -- so effectively quadruple the damage.

Will people take lots of D2 to make that relevant? I'm not sure.

 p5freak wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

Rubrics dont get ICON.

Not yet, anyway. I think it's important to anticipate the errata/FAQ coming up might give it to be consistent with Berserker Marines and Noise Marines.

With that said, GW is anything but consistent.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

It's not the All is Dust rule itself, but losing the capacity to reduce D2 down to D1 to allow AiD to trigger.

A disintegrator Ravager would pop two CSM Rubrics in cover as opposed to doing a single wound against TS Rubrics -- so effectively quadruple the damage.

Will people take lots of D2 to make that relevant? I'm not sure.

Nobody was going to pop that Strat on anything but Scarabs though. To say they lost access to it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't being used on Rubric Marines anyway.

I think that a good way to use rubrics might just be a small squad of 5 man to harass. That is 4d6+8 flamer shots with -2 and then another 3d6+2 shots from the pistol, albeit at S3. That is only 132 points for a unit that can do significant damage to a lot of units in this game. They can also warptime themselves as they don't want to charge and can advance and shoot, making their threat range like 12+d6 for move advance move, and then 12 inch range. Put that right at the enemy line turn 1 and they have to try to do something to it, perhaps absorbing shots that would go into more important units.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nobody was going to pop that Strat on anything but Scarabs though. To say they lost access to it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't being used on Rubric Marines anyway.

Fair point - though with the reduced cost on flamers I think you'll see it happen more as people trickle into Rubrics.

And I should correct my statement - MoT would block one of those so CSM Rubrics would only take twice the damage, but...that relies on no preparatory small arms or follow up shooting.

So played a 50PL game yesterday against my buddy's Sisters. Neither of us have the Nephlim book so we still used Nachmund. We did the very first incursion mission. I ran Word Bearers and used their specific secondary, Grind them down, Engage on all fronts.

My list
Diso lord
-Flames of Spite
-Intoxicating Elixir
-MoS
MoP
-Mast of the Union
-Liber Hereticus
-MoS
-Cursed Earth, Pact of Flesh, Delightful Agonies
5 legionaries
-Lascanonn
10 Cultists
5 Possessed
5 Warp Talons
1 Venomcrawler
1 Obliterator

His
Palentine
Cannoness
3 Nundams
2 squads of battle sisters
5 Sacresants
5 Retributors
1 Penitent Engine
2 Rhinos

He pulled ahead early on primary but by 3rd turn he only had 2 rhinos and 2 squads of girls left. I had my Venomcrawler, MoP, Disco Lord, 4 marines, and 10 cultists. Being honest I told him what Pact of Flesh did and he was able to deny it everytime. If I was playing against anyone else I would've used the strat to auto pass, make it undeniable, and eaten the mortal. Disco Lord with WB trait, Flames of Spite, and MoS is gross. I didn't pop the Elixir so I think next time I'd give the daemon weapon. The doctrines really didn't come into play or really matter much. Disco lord's baleflamer 1 shot his Penitent engine on turn 1 so that was nice. If my list seems like a mish mash, it's because I just wanted to try a bunch of things to see how they did. Disco Lord did a lot of heavy lifting eating the Penitent Engine, squad of nundams, some sacresants, Palentine, and cannoness. MoP casting 3 powers was great. Possessed having 3 wounds makes it tough to chew through. Warp Talons turned the retributors to a fine mist, but didn't do much else.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nobody was going to pop that Strat on anything but Scarabs though. To say they lost access to it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't being used on Rubric Marines anyway.

Fair point - though with the reduced cost on flamers I think you'll see it happen more as people trickle into Rubrics.

And I should correct my statement - MoT would block one of those so CSM Rubrics would only take twice the damage, but...that relies on no preparatory small arms or follow up shooting.

Those small arms would be more wasted on them than say Possessed. Fair trade overall.

Also even with Warpflame Rubrics existing, Thousand Sons players ARE going to take Scarabs. That's just how it works.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also even with Warpflame Rubrics existing, Thousand Sons players ARE going to take Scarabs. That's just how it works.

No doubt. It just becomes harder to squeeze the CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also even with Warpflame Rubrics existing, Thousand Sons players ARE going to take Scarabs. That's just how it works.

No doubt. It just becomes harder to squeeze the CP.

Depends. I know that even hard-core "I wanna be Ina tournament" players in my area don't like Nephilim so it seems not a lot of people bought it.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Depends. I know that even hard-core "I wanna be Ina tournament" players in my area don't like Nephilim so it seems not a lot of people bought it.

That's too bad. I'm having a hard time finding a copy that isn't direct from GW. Nothing on eBay and everyone else is sold out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.

That's exactly what they'll do.

I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

Most playtested rules ever...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

LOCUS, not "FOCUS". MoP has it as well. $5 says it's related to Summoning and we'll find out what it does in the Daemons codex.

Another $5 says it won't be remotely as cool as a Legion Esoterist. Anybody remember Daemon Bombs? Pepperidge Farms remembers, and so do the HH writers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

You are right. lol I haven't been able to find anything in the rulebook that uses this keyword.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

LOCUS, not "FOCUS". MoP has it as well. $5 says it's related to Summoning and we'll find out what it does in the Daemons codex.

Another $5 says it won't be remotely as cool as a Legion Esoterist. Anybody remember Daemon Bombs? Pepperidge Farms remembers, and so do the HH writers.

If its related to summoning it would be wild because its on only the MOP, LOS and Nortilith crown. So, nobody else has it. And between those three, one is a huge lord of war, another is a static fortification and the third is an infantry character. You couldn't find three other different models if you tried. But maybe they give +1 to summoning in an aura around them. And that would be thematic. Because Nortilith crown is often used in rituals and LOS is worshipped by Khorne fanatics, and MOP is MOP.


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 l0k1 wrote:
So played a 50PL game yesterday against my buddy's Sisters. Neither of us have the Nephlim book so we still used Nachmund. We did the very first incursion mission. I ran Word Bearers and used their specific secondary, Grind them down, Engage on all fronts.

... Warp Talons turned the retributors to a fine mist, but didn't do much else.

So, How did the 1 obliterator do? I assume you deep struck it down ?

I didn't deep strike him like I should've, but it was a fun game so not mad. I was hoping for 1st turn and figured if I didn't get it, he was still in cover with AoC and a 2+. If he was still alive I could Pact of Flesh to heal him. He died before I got to do anything with him, but he ate almost all of my buddy's 1st shooting phase. It sucks, but better to lose 1 Obliterator than say my Disco Lord. Using Hexagrammatic Ward on a multi melta shot put a grin on my face and gave my buddy a big sad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.

That's exactly what they'll do.

Even without that, they are still far better than bare naked legionaries. They have all is dust, AP-2 bolters for pretty much the same cost.

 p5freak wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.

That's exactly what they'll do.

Even without that, they are still far better than bare naked legionaries. They have all is dust, AP-2 bolters for pretty much the same cost.

And the Psyker is sorta built in too.

Yeah, that's why I try and keep my legionaires cheap and with min 5 man squads. They are just there for obsec and for some secondaries. Just about every other elite infantry choice we have will trump legionaires. its not even going to be close.

If you don't care for the obsec:

110 points of legionaires is always going to be worse than 110 points of Berserkers.

120 points of legionaires are so much worse than 120 points of plague marines that its laughable, same for rubric marines

125 points of legionaries are much worse than 125 points of Chosen.

140 points of legionaires are much worse than 140 points of Possessed.

And if you are bringing noise marines, then you are playing emperor's children and they are obsec, so why are you even bringing legionaires...

And this is just power armor to power armour comparision. Once you bring in terminators into the picture. Well, the two are so different we might as well not compare. Terminators have deep strike, they have 3W, 2+ armor save, 5++ invul. Their accursed weapons hits at AP3 with +1 attack. Etc etc.

Now, I do care about obsec. But I don't want to overpay for obsec.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

Most likely this is going to be used in the new Daemon Codex.

Just watched this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sh4M_84G0c&ab_channel=MWGStudios

The LR did so well. It survived the whole game and took down at least 2 or 3 raiders? That was so good! And that big cultist squad buffed with the Dark Apostle Illusionary supplication is soooo tanky. Was hit with so many drukhari and survived with 1 cultist leader left alive on the point. Skari said that 210 points bogged down at least a quarter of his entire army. lol

But I still think the best Dark Apostles are world bearers though. Every other legion only has 1 prayer on theirs. Somehow, spending 95 points for one character to do just one prayer is just ... steep.

In regard to Legionnaires do you think if they made marks + icon free for them in battleforged armies they might be enough value to be more likely to include in your army?

 Curze08 wrote:
In regard to Legionnaires do you think if they made marks + icon free for them in battleforged armies they might be enough value to be more likely to include in your army?

I guess so. Actually, I am playing with legionaries for my obsec at this point anyway. I love legionaries because they are literally the poster boys for our codex chaos space marines. Its just that I tend to run them as cheap as possible, with possibly just a power fist on champion. They are far more survivable to shooting and combat than 10 cultists.

I guess so. Actually, I am playing with legionaries for my obsec at this point anyway. I love legionaries because they are literally the poster boys for our codex chaos space marines. Its just that I tend to run them as cheap as possible, with possibly just a power fist on champion. They are far more survivable to shooting and combat than 10 cultists.

Ok, but 5 marines with a power fist...whats that...100 points? Does that unit put in more work than 20 cultists? Which is also 2 units that can be in different places on the board and also contribute to 2/3 of the troop tax for Battalion. I guess it could also be dependant on Legion traits. I run Night Lords so not sure I see one 5 man Legionnaire squad doing much more than 2 squads of cultist. Main issue for me is cultists are not very fluffy for Night Lords, but they just seem like a more efficient use of points that allows me spend up bigger on juicier elites and fast attack. Its sad though because I want regular CSM to be worth taking :(

Some people just like Chaos Space Marines. Some people don't want Cultists in their army. What's wrong with that?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Some people just like Chaos Space Marines. Some people don't want Cultists in their army. What's wrong with that?

Nothing at all, I get it. I'm still undecided myself. Just struggling with the efficiency side of it. Maybe I need to look for some math hammer for cultists vs CSM against space marine shooting. If cultists get wiped and Legionnaires stick around then I think that would help me decide.

Or not everything has to be reduced to mathammer and efficiencies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or not everything has to be reduced to mathammer and efficiencies.

Fair enough...but this is a tactica thread right? Not a nostalgia or fluff thread. So I would have thought that efficient use of points and the general strengths and weaknesses of certain units is a reasonable discussion.

But maybe I'm wrong.

I played a couple of games this weekend with my Black Legion, featuring Abaddon.

My first game was a GT style game vs. Ultramarines. I don't have Berserkers, Possessed or anything like that, but I had a squad of 10 chainsword Khorne marked/iconed Legionaries that was supposed to be a meat shield for Abaddon, but after completely overkilling a squad of 5 Incursors after turning them into Red Corsairs, they sat on an objective to be whittled a way by battlesuit and Redemptor secondary weapons. I will say that the Confluence of Traitors strat is probably an every game strat for the Black Legion.

Abaddon didn't do anything all game long. I suggested to my opponent to disallow easy charges for as long as possible. Which they did as they castled up in their deployment zone table quarter until the Warmaster absolutely was going to make it into melee. Where Tigerius cast smite doing 3 damage, 3 damage was done in Shooting and Guilliman finished him off in melee making a charge due to the new way Ruins change engagement range. Even though no wall or barrier was between Abaddon and Guilliman. I just had to move Abaddon into a ruin to get him within charge range and the walls were behind the Warmaster as the ruin was Ultramarine terrain they retreated from to prevent an easy charge.

The last thing I want to mention is for that first game, I had 10 Terminators (with the Black Rune) backed up with a MoP and Dark Apostle who put a bunch of defensive buffs Turn 1 to allow them to face tank my loyalist shooting on the center objective. I think the Terminators did okay, but I still lost 6 of them to main weapons of battlesuits/Redemptors and Eradictators. Basically, a lot of 5++ saves I wasn't making. Afterward, I was trying Psychic Action instead of more spells which allowed the Ultramarines to take away Look Out, Sir killing the Dark Apostile and putting the MoP to 1 Wound.

I dominated the Primaries most of the game, holding 3 of 5 most of the game and 4 of the 5 I turn (I forget what the actual mission was). It was my secondaries that lost me the game. I took Despoiling Dominions, Grind Them Down and Psychic Interrogation. I feel the Black Legion secondary was kinda a waste. Grind Them Down was tough since my army was slow and melee focused and my opponent practically never left their deployment zone other than with Infiltrating units. And Psychic Interrogation stripped too much power from my army while also largely being blocked by a Tigerius's superior ability. I lost, but I did manage to hold the game to within 10points. Which I think is pretty good considering I don't usually play anything but Open War and Tempest games, and never GT games. Plus, I am far from figuring it out Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

The second game versus a Salamander army, Abaddon killed 3 Aggressors, 2 Blade Guard Vets, Primaris Lt, Primaris Chapter Master and 9-10 Assault Intercessors. So I did at least get a chance to actually do something with him this weekend.

Which LandRaider do you guys prefer? Vanilla or another Variant?