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Yeah we get to keep Chaos Terminators, with their streamlined melee weapons but still weirdly complex limitations on combi-weapons and nonsensical power/chainfist limitations! All in the same week they showed us what a World Eater Terminator in plastic could look like. Woo!

I'm just going to assume that reason for no world eater specific terminator kit isn't because the studio thought they didn't deserve them, but they were given a limit of X kits for the release, and after Angron and updated Berzerkers, it was decided to use those slots on a larger character and blender possessed. Maybe the other ideas just had more attention, or maybe they wanted to start out with a different focus than death guard who have 3 different kits with terminator armor

As disappointing as it is, before their account was deleted on Reddit Ok_Entrepreneur said that WE will not be getting their own Terminators models.

It's very confusing because Entrepreneur had a spotless record and leaked tons of stuff from previous codexes which was spot on. However it also just seems ridiculous that WE don't get their own Termies.

To be fair, the "a single marine possessed by eight bloodletters" also sound ridiculous, and yet, here we are.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
As disappointing as it is, before their account was deleted on Reddit Ok_Entrepreneur said that WE will not be getting their own Terminators models.

It's very confusing because Entrepreneur had a spotless record and leaked tons of stuff from previous codexes which was spot on. However it also just seems ridiculous that WE don't get their own Termies.

The saddest part about this is the crippled CCW selection of the most recent terminator kit

Eh, look, at the end of the day, provided we get a good variety of cool kits, I really don't mind if I've heard about them in the lore. Particularly if following the lore demands fitting them into a particular paradigm. Take DG, which, until the latest patch, had Poxwalkers, Plague Marines, and Blightlord all performing roughly the same function: unkillable chonkers. Plague Marines were inferior in this role, so no-one took them.

Given how Red Butchers are portrayed in Forge World, looks like they'd be another melee blender, and so competing with Berzerkers. Perhaps this '8 bloodletters in one marine' thing would fulfil the role of an unkillable chonker who just sits on objectives, which WE desperately needs, and which doesn't have to fit the 2+/5++ profile.

 TonyH122 wrote:
Eh, look, at the end of the day, provided we get a good variety of cool kits, I really don't mind if I've heard about them in the lore. Particularly if following the lore demands fitting them into a particular paradigm. Take DG, which, until the latest patch, had Poxwalkers, Plague Marines, and Blightlord all performing roughly the same function: unkillable chonkers. Plague Marines were inferior in this role, so no-one took them.

Given how Red Butchers are portrayed in Forge World, looks like they'd be another melee blender, and so competing with Berzerkers. Perhaps this '8 bloodletters in one marine' thing would fulfil the role of an unkillable chonker who just sits on objectives, which WE desperately needs, and which doesn't have to fit the 2+/5++ profile.

Terminators as another melee blender would be a failing completely owed to GW's insistence on dumbifying Khorne.

Going back to simpler times, Terminators had a niche in a Khorne army with combi bolters and autocannons providing some ranged punch to your Berzerker core. Additionally all those chain and power fists helped against monstrous creatures and vehicles while leaving Berzerkers to target infantry.

The game has moved on, of course, but GW could still make Khorne Terminators a working combined ranged and melee support unit if they wanted to. It's just that they insist it's not Khornate unless it has maximum axes and runs towards the enemy like a loony.

But I guess if we end up not getting Terminators at all, that also solves GW's problem of what to do with Khornate Terminators.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
As disappointing as it is, before their account was deleted on Reddit Ok_Entrepreneur said that WE will not be getting their own Terminators models.

It's very confusing because Entrepreneur had a spotless record and leaked tons of stuff from previous codexes which was spot on. However it also just seems ridiculous that WE don't get their own Termies.

Gw didn't come up with look that's different enough to fw kit?

Showing a new World Eater Terminator promo model to get people hyped for the book, then not actually releasing World Eater Termys, makes no sense to me.

You are going to have people signing up for Warhammer+ to get the model and then finding it's not actually usable in the book.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
As disappointing as it is, before their account was deleted on Reddit Ok_Entrepreneur said that WE will not be getting their own Terminators models.

It's very confusing because Entrepreneur had a spotless record and leaked tons of stuff from previous codexes which was spot on. However it also just seems ridiculous that WE don't get their own Termies.

Did they really though? Not trying to give anyone false hope, but I looked at Ok_E a few hours before they deleted their account and there were no posts that outright said that.

Terminators were just not on the list of units ported from CSM and a unique version was never described by them.

If, as we all believe, we are at the end of an edition and there will be a great reset, then I would not be surprised if the red butchers don't make this edition.
The Terminators in the codex could still be red butcher light for now and then in next edition the new models are created and they come into the codex.

This is obviously not ideal for a number of reasons.
1. They need to keep those 'old' style in the next edition or else people lose their model rules really quick
2. It's a stop gap and that just isn't good.

But anyway that's just conjecture on my part.

I don't think we will see red butchers this edition. I think this will be a pretty light codex tbf. I think it will pretty much be the Current chaos codex minus a few units. (Havocs, sorcerors, legionaires and oblits). I think bikers etc will still exist.

However if they remove bikers/raptors etc as well without having a large number of replacement units then it will be a failure

Doohicky wrote:
If, as we all believe, we are at the end of an edition and there will be a great reset, then I would not be surprised if the red butchers don't make this edition.
The Terminators in the codex could still be red butcher light for now and then in next edition the new models are created and they come into the codex.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, Thousand Sons didn't get any new units except a single monopose HQ ever since they became their own factoin.

Disclaimer that obviously final judgement is reserved until it comes out, but at the moment based on the new CSM codex and what we've heard rumoured about the WE codex - this has pretty much killed my army.

If I run my WE as the new WE - then I can't use my Havocs, Raptors, Obliterators, Terminators (their load-out was invalidated in the new CSM book), Predator, Vindicator, bikes, and quite possibly my cultists and my straight CSM marines / legionaries squad. It reduces my army to Kharn, a squad of Berzerkers a Helbrute and a Heldrake.

I'm sure the people I play with would be happy enough for me to use the current CSM codex with the rules for WE from White Dwarf - but damn it, I was excited to be getting a dedicated codex...

This is what happens when subfractions get super special bespoke rules with a different book because different colour Marines totally need their own rules.

After Death Guard and Thousand Sons it should hardly come as a surprise that a bunch of existing options are going to be lost and/or invalidated.

Yeah, not a massive surprise but still sucks when it happens to you. Still, at least my other army, Dark Eldar, are... also losing options hand over fist with every subsequent update...

 Geifer wrote:
Terminators as another melee blender would be a failing completely owed to GW's insistence on dumbifying Khorne.

Going back to simpler times, Terminators had a niche in a Khorne army with combi bolters and autocannons providing some ranged punch to your Berzerker core. Additionally all those chain and power fists helped against monstrous creatures and vehicles while leaving Berzerkers to target infantry.

The game has moved on, of course, but GW could still make Khorne Terminators a working combined ranged and melee support unit if they wanted to. It's just that they insist it's not Khornate unless it has maximum axes and runs towards the enemy like a loony.

But I guess if we end up not getting Terminators at all, that also solves GW's problem of what to do with Khornate Terminators.

Completely agree. When you're playing as World Eaters it's nice to have fire support from a hard target like Terminators. I like the idea of Red Butcher Terminators to charge with the rest of the loonies but I also enjoy having Termies with decent firepower. Having two types of Terminators can't be that hard right? I think my old Space Wolves have the option to take 7 different types at this point.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Terminators as another melee blender would be a failing completely owed to GW's insistence on dumbifying Khorne.

Going back to simpler times, Terminators had a niche in a Khorne army with combi bolters and autocannons providing some ranged punch to your Berzerker core. Additionally all those chain and power fists helped against monstrous creatures and vehicles while leaving Berzerkers to target infantry.

The game has moved on, of course, but GW could still make Khorne Terminators a working combined ranged and melee support unit if they wanted to. It's just that they insist it's not Khornate unless it has maximum axes and runs towards the enemy like a loony.

But I guess if we end up not getting Terminators at all, that also solves GW's problem of what to do with Khornate Terminators.

Completely agree. When you're playing as World Eaters it's nice to have fire support from a hard target like Terminators. I like the idea of Red Butcher Terminators to charge with the rest of the loonies but I also enjoy having Termies with decent firepower. Having two types of Terminators can't be that hard right? I think my old Space Wolves have the option to take 7 different types at this point.

Death Guard, GW's favourite Chaos Legion got two different types of Termies.

Either way, Red Butchers are supposed to be so absolutely mad that there's no way they could provide semi-competent fire support, we'd need a new unit type for that.

 Jack Flask wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
As disappointing as it is, before their account was deleted on Reddit Ok_Entrepreneur said that WE will not be getting their own Terminators models.

It's very confusing because Entrepreneur had a spotless record and leaked tons of stuff from previous codexes which was spot on. However it also just seems ridiculous that WE don't get their own Termies.

Did they really though? Not trying to give anyone false hope, but I looked at Ok_E a few hours before they deleted their account and there were no posts that outright said that.

Terminators were just not on the list of units ported from CSM and a unique version was never described by them.

Here is the thread, the 'deleted account' was Ok_E

 Dysartes wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
And yet if they had gained more than they had lost, the same people would be complaining about "bloat", and how certain characters/units weren't needed.

Bit of an impossible situation for GW, there.

This strikes me as a particularly weak argument. Through the lens of Khorne, I don't think adding a unique character or two, and some actual WE Terminators would suddenly take the release into "bloat" territory. The same would apply to other cult Chaos armies.

To be clear, I was addressing the ranting from one ExtremelyPointless poster about how they felt the Death Guard launch was bad, and the likely hypocrisy in their position.

I'll be as confused as most of y'all if there isn't a Red Butchers unit entry (and kit, of course) when the WE release, and would've thought GW would've realised the opportunities in a DG-scale launch compared to a TS-scale one.

I have been consistent on my position. You can feel free to CONSOOM and gobble up any explanation from GW all you want, but when an army loses way more than they gain, there's a reason to be angry with it. Thousand Sons and Death Guard need to be folded into the main CSM codex again.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I'm just going to assume that reason for no world eater specific terminator kit isn't because the studio thought they didn't deserve them, but they were given a limit of X kits for the release, and after Angron and updated Berzerkers, it was decided to use those slots on a larger character and blender possessed. Maybe the other ideas just had more attention, or maybe they wanted to start out with a different focus than death guard who have 3 different kits with terminator armor

I mean, you are probably right, it's certainly just a cap set on the amount of kit they can produce... but then I'm left wondering if their limited new production slot are well alocated when you get stuff that literally nobody asked for like some Kill Team boarding parties that nobody asked for and even less will actually use.

Releasing a new "army" require some bare minimum effort, a Character, Toop, Elite and Chaff is the bare minimum you could ask for.

 (HN) wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I'm just going to assume that reason for no world eater specific terminator kit isn't because the studio thought they didn't deserve them, but they were given a limit of X kits for the release, and after Angron and updated Berzerkers, it was decided to use those slots on a larger character and blender possessed. Maybe the other ideas just had more attention, or maybe they wanted to start out with a different focus than death guard who have 3 different kits with terminator armor

I mean, you are probably right, it's certainly just a cap set on the amount of kit they can produce... but then I'm left wondering if their limited new production slot are well alocated when you get stuff that literally nobody asked for like some Kill Team boarding parties that nobody asked for and even less will actually use.

Releasing a new "army" require some bare minimum effort, a Character, Toop, Elite and Chaff is the bare minimum you could ask for.

The random Kill teams and box sets let GW try out ideas that would be prohibitive to do as a normal release. Some are just minor units that dont really pick up, but other times GW strikes it hot. Custodes were just a small allied unit in the prospero box, and GSC got their first modern models in a box vs deathwatch.

World Eaters release with 4 kits, one of which is a named character, another one which is some weird mortal/beastmen chaff, and no Red Butchers?

I absolutely wouldn't classify that as bare minimum, personally.

With regard the comment above that there is only spawn in fast attack.

Can someone tell me the last time a codex was released with only a single choice in a slot?
I'm sure it has happened, but has it been something that has happened recently?

I'm thinking maybe sisters may only have a single troop choice? Does that also happen in the other slots in codex?

Doohicky wrote:
With regard the comment above that there is only spawn in fast attack.

Can someone tell me the last time a codex was released with only a single choice in a slot?
I'm sure it has happened, but has it been something that has happened recently?

I'm thinking maybe sisters may only have a single troop choice? Does that also happen in the other slots in codex?

Custodes where, in the codex at least, they only have Bikers. With FW you get the cool Jump Pack guys though.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
World Eaters release with 4 kits, one of which is a named character, another one which is some weird mortal/beastmen chaff, and no Red Butchers?

I absolutely wouldn't classify that as bare minimum, personally.

That's my point.

Hell, in comparison the Black Templars a supposed "supplement" army got more kits than what this new WE "army" is supposedly getting.
2 Primaris castelan
Primaris Cruisaders (you could almost count that as two units if you wanted to consider Neophites/Initiates separately)
Primaris Sword Breathren
2 Named Characters
They can still use their previous First Born Crusaders too
And they even got an upgrade sprue on top of that that add an option to existing vehicle and could help you turn your other standard marine units (which they still have access to, minus librarian) into templar looking dudes (btw, once again it's important to note that they could do the same for the WE, having an upgrade sprue that could help you turn terminators, jump pack, bikes, etc into WE units if they really CBA making kits for them).

Doohicky wrote:
With regard the comment above that there is only spawn in fast attack.

Can someone tell me the last time a codex was released with only a single choice in a slot?
I'm sure it has happened, but has it been something that has happened recently?

Harlequins have a single Troops choice, a single Fast Attack choice, a single Dedicated Transport, and a single Heavy Support. Now, during 9th edition, Harelquins got rolled into the Eldar Codex - but last edition they got an entire Codex on their own, with like six datasheet total.

Once again, please remain on topic and polite when posting. This not optional.

Twilight Pathways wrote:

 Jack Flask wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
As disappointing as it is, before their account was deleted on Reddit Ok_Entrepreneur said that WE will not be getting their own Terminators models.

It's very confusing because Entrepreneur had a spotless record and leaked tons of stuff from previous codexes which was spot on. However it also just seems ridiculous that WE don't get their own Termies.

Did they really though? Not trying to give anyone false hope, but I looked at Ok_E a few hours before they deleted their account and there were no posts that outright said that.

Terminators were just not on the list of units ported from CSM and a unique version was never described by them.

Here is the thread, the 'deleted account' was Ok_E

I would be really, really shocked if we did not end up with Red Butchers or some kind of Legion Terminators. That would be a huge oversight and surprise. I hope Ok_E is wrong about this one.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No Red Butchers? Why would they skip such an iconic unit in favor of other things?

Why is a Power Fist on a Terminator a Power Fist, but an Accursed Weapon on a Chosen?
.

Oh boy, the new FAQ makes this question look silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, a few weeks back I hypothesised what we'd be likely to get for World Eaters based on a few factors - whether they were present in the DG and TS books and how they fit in the force and fluff, as well as the 3.5 and 3rd ed List.

This is the ultimate SAFEST list of current options. They are universal in all the books or so obviously WE it hurts.

Kharn the Betrayer
Chaos Lord/Chaos Terminator Lord
Khorne Berserkers
Rhinos
Predators
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Cultists
Helbrutes
Land Raiders

So people saying there is no Terminator Lord is....bizarre. There is in DG. And there are Terminator Sorcerers in the TS. So us to completely lose access to any and all generic character options seems....off.

The Daemon Prince is another safe option, but not included here because I was considering whether people would want to go buy the fugly old model when a new one is teased already and just round the corner...

The vehicles listed are present in ALL books. Predators were staple and are a universal for other CC marine armies.

If they're really worried about that aspect they can give us a Rage test type rule where on a 1 or something the firing tank gets a -1 penalty to hit or finds itself moving forward.

I also worked out the Not So Safe options...

Dark Apostles
Possessed
<Daemon Engines>
Vindicator
Lord of Skulls

Reasoning here is simple.

Dark Apostles thematically make sense. Slaughterpriests! Probably going to be a variant version of them which will also provide our Deny the Witch opportunities as well as blessings and boons from prayers. So while a traditional Dark Apostle is not a safe option to take (as if it ever would be) I should imagine if you Khorne one up a Slaughterpriest type unit is more than likely.

Possessed - though they are common with Death Guard and GW seems to love showing us Khorne Possessed art....GW also loves completely ignoring the art and Possessed might just be too much melee beef bloat. But with rumours about Terminators...maybe not?

<Daemon Engines> - As much as I love the lazy slap a maulerfiend, heldrake etc approach in, Khorne has SO MANY DAEMON ENGINES fluffwise from Epic that it might just be one of those armies where giving a bespoke Daemon Engine kit or too might just work better.

Vindicator - largely because though it's another shared unit, it also is the unit that has never really had presence in Khornate armies. The Predator variants were around since the 3rd ed IA list and the 3.5 list....the Vindicator, not so much. Besides, it may be a likely candidate to be replaced with a Doom Blaster style daemon engine...

Lord of Skulls - am I mad? Maybe. But the reason for this is simple - the World Eaters, despite apparently having SO MANY UNITS culled from them,...would have TWO Lord of War choices? What? No no no. That makes no sense. I can see the Lord of Skulls getting the chop for Angron...or a book with really weird battlefield role spreads where we supposedly have 1 fast attack choice but 2 LoWs in an assault based army.

The rest are pretty much No. They're not shared, They don't come forward, they wouldn't be proliferated across. We might get WE versions of them....like the Lord of Executions seems an odd one not to come forward...but we're not going to be seeing Lord Discordants, Bikers or Raptors.

Terminators are odd - Thousand Sons Terminator options suddenly gained a few but otherwise, power swords aside they are EXACTLY as they were in 3.5. No real upgrades, just rubric base Terminators.

DG getting 2 Terminator options - well, one was a straight Heresy port and the Blightlords are basically standard CSM Terminators with some option swaps but otherwise you could mostly fit an old unit in fine to the role.

So I can't see WE not getting Terminators. Of course they'll probably have some silly name to make them NOT Terminators...

And Red Butchers are an OBVIOUS Heresy port. Especially if they have Paired Lightning Claws as options.

All in all a lot of things can be straight ports across. I worked this out based on wanting to buy things.

Now I'd love for them to give us an Epic/2nd Ed nod and actually embrace the Khorne As A God Of Battle concept to allow us to have things like Havocs or even base CSM....but GW has leaned so far into the Khorne = RAAARGLEBARGLEFROTH that I know that's not likely, even if it would have been a nice twist.

Again, Rage tests as options folks.

As for people complaining about the number of kits for releases restricting them....

If existing armies like Craftworld Eldar and CSM can command the sheer number of new kits with their current release (Eldar got - Autarch, Avatar, Maugan Ra, Guardians dual kit, Corsairs, Rangers, Ranger bikes, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers - 9 new kits and CSM got - Daemon Prince (StD later this year), Warpsmith, Cultist HQ mob, Possessed, Chosen, Cultists and Mutie Cultists - 7 kits) then it wouldn't be unfeasible for a new army to have similar sized if not more.

Assuming 7 kits

- Angron
- Berserkers
- Special Terminators
- Generic Terminator Type
- Special Chaff type
- Daemon Engine variant
- WE Character Type

More than feasible. I don't buy the restriction in kits for a new army when existing armies are commanding 9 and 7 kits this year and even the AM seem to have a fair number coming in as well (new AM squads, Kasrkin, new Sentinels, Ursula Creed)...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Lord of Skulls - am I mad? Maybe. But the reason for this is simple - the World Eaters, despite apparently having SO MANY UNITS culled from them,...would have TWO Lord of War choices? What? No no no. That makes no sense. I can see the Lord of Skulls getting the chop for Angron...or a book with really weird battlefield role spreads where we supposedly have 1 fast attack choice but 2 LoWs in an assault based army.

While I get your reasoning here, do you honestly think GW would pass on a way to FINALLY sell that huge kit in mass?
Cmon now, at this point I can even see them try to push that thing as a mandatory auto include (if you don't go Angron) and even slap a new plastic Kytan upgrade sprue in there to hype the thing more.
Also, looking at the Necron, GW doesn't seem to be afraid to release 2 lord of war at the same time.

Also, something important to note is that despite loving to chope stuff in mele, khorne isn't the type to hate a good dakka too, remember he does not care from where the blood flows and he is even he only god rolling having daemon units that roll around on bike with canons so I could see them still have some havok or other heavy fire troop of some sort (Obliterator come to mind).

And speaking of Obliterator, they are still a causality of the starter box, monopose and stuck on a sprue with something else.
They are the perfect target for a proper new kit release, one that could conveniently come with a Mutilator dual build, a unit that would fit pretty well in WE too.

I don't think that's going to happen with their 9th release, but I can see them get it in 10th.