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Kind of think you can "predict the meta" - but equally that the game is sufficiently balanced that most factions can have a good day. Faction X winning a tournament shouldn't really surprise. (I guess if 30%~ of players started playing Tzeentch and Daemons that might change.)
With that said, its pretty clear they need to nerf flamers.
I'm sort of surprised there hasn't been a bigger internet outcry over them. But the codex reviews seemed to go "these will be good... anyway" - buried under a collective "so much of the deamons codex is overcosted, this sucks". Which has caused this slow-roll of "daemons are bad", "daemons are balanced", "daemons are busted", "Tzeentch is the best army in the game"...
Admittedly, if they did gut flamers, the Daemons book probably needs compensatory buffs, because yes, a lot of stuff seems a bit rubbish.
Uh flamers have been known for long to be busted. It's not exactly been secret or kept hidden. It's just that it's pointless to talk about it. Are they busted? Yes. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows they are going to get nerfed. GW itself mentioned before flamers as target for future change...
How much you need to talk about sun being hot? Because that's equally obvious statement as flamers are going to get a nerf.
tneva82 wrote: Uh flamers have been known for long to be busted. It's not exactly been secret or kept hidden. It's just that it's pointless to talk about it. Are they busted? Yes. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows they are going to get nerfed. GW itself mentioned before flamers as target for future change...
How much you need to talk about sun being hot? Because that's equally obvious statement as flamers are going to get a nerf.
Well, I don't know really. Did we need to discuss Votann, or Tyranids, or Harlequins, or Custodes and Tau etc? Probably not - they were all too good, were going to get nerfed and got nerfed. But people did so. Where are the 10-page threads on Dakka about how flamers are broken/no they are fine l2play/no 40k is an easy game I can only be beaten by netlists/ etc? Where is it if you move beyond to say Reddit, or the professional scene?
tneva82 wrote: Uh flamers have been known for long to be busted. It's not exactly been secret or kept hidden. It's just that it's pointless to talk about it. Are they busted? Yes. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows they are going to get nerfed. GW itself mentioned before flamers as target for future change...
How much you need to talk about sun being hot? Because that's equally obvious statement as flamers are going to get a nerf.
Well, I don't know really. Did we need to discuss Votann, or Tyranids, or Harlequins, or Custodes and Tau etc? Probably not - they were all too good, were going to get nerfed and got nerfed. But people did so. Where are the 10-page threads on Dakka about how flamers are broken/no they are fine l2play/no 40k is an easy game I can only be beaten by netlists/ etc? Where is it if you move beyond to say Reddit, or the professional scene?
Putting a cynical hat on the people who benefit most from the flamers situation are the same people who would have been threatened by people with Votann, some groups of people out there have easy access to daemons armies or chaos soups because they've been around a long time, so they can leverage the situation. Whereas any Tom/Dick/Harry coming along and winning games with the new army by chance might make them look worse and be less easy for them to manipulate by acquiring pre-painted minis either 2nd hand or from player groups.
I'm not saying that's realistic and is a real tinfoil hat moment but it's an unlikely explanation.
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
Middling competitive players have easy access to tournament ready chaos soup models either through borrowing or 2nd hand market. They can ride the new hotness without much hassle and if flamers aren't discussed that much then they get easy wins. They might get egg on their face if anyone can cobble together a random Votann army and beat them however by chance, so they might be inclined to get them "banned" or pre-nerfed in an attempt to avoid the "best" army being one they can't access.
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
Middling competitive players have easy access to tournament ready chaos soup models either through borrowing or 2nd hand market. They can ride the new hotness without much hassle and if flamers aren't discussed that much then they get easy wins. They might get egg on their face if anyone can cobble together a random Votann army and beat them however by chance, so they might be inclined to get them "banned" or pre-nerfed in an attempt to avoid the "best" army being one they can't access.
Oh ok, so you think people complaining about votann but not flamers is some sort of conspiracy or something?
Everyone KNOWS that flamers are gonna eat a nerf, its been obvious since before the dex got released. Theres no point in discussing it until it changes, Votann is new and not as obviously OP (since they got their day 1 nerf), of course people are gonna talk about them more.
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
Middling competitive players have easy access to tournament ready chaos soup models either through borrowing or 2nd hand market. They can ride the new hotness without much hassle and if flamers aren't discussed that much then they get easy wins. They might get egg on their face if anyone can cobble together a random Votann army and beat them however by chance, so they might be inclined to get them "banned" or pre-nerfed in an attempt to avoid the "best" army being one they can't access.
Oh ok, so you think people complaining about votann but not flamers is some sort of conspiracy or something?
Everyone KNOWS that flamers are gonna eat a nerf, its been obvious since before the dex got released. Theres no point in discussing it until it changes, Votann is new and not as obviously OP (since they got their day 1 nerf), of course people are gonna talk about them more.
Then why did we HAVE to discuss how much Votann needed a nerf if it was obvious since before the dex got released? Might as well have not discussed it until it changes. Honestly this "community" is horrendously hypocritical based on when it benefits them. Why aren't Tzeentch lists banned since it's obvious OP?
Then why did we HAVE to discuss how much Votann needed a nerf if it was obvious since before the dex got released? Might as well have not discussed it until it changes. Honestly this "community" is horrendously hypocritical based on when it benefits them. Why aren't Tzeentch lists banned since it's obvious OP?
what? I said Flamers were obviously in need of a nerf
Votann post day-1 nerf werent obviously broken
Banning votann affected no one since the army wasnt even released yet so no one's collection would be invalidated. Nerfing Flamers invalidates some people's collections.
Then why did we HAVE to discuss how much Votann needed a nerf if it was obvious since before the dex got released? Might as well have not discussed it until it changes. Honestly this "community" is horrendously hypocritical based on when it benefits them. Why aren't Tzeentch lists banned since it's obvious OP?
what? I said Flamers were obviously in need of a nerf
Votann post day-1 nerf werent obviously broken
Banning votann affected no one since the army wasnt even released yet so no one's collection would be invalidated. Nerfing Flamers invalidates some people's collections.
To invalidate means to cancel something or make it void, as if it never happened.
So by saying Demons can't be played, you're making Demon player's armies void, as if they never happened.
By saying Votann can't be played, you're telling people to wait a bit before buying in the army since nobody had a full collection when the ban (which is standard procedure for pre-faq codex for the events that did ban votann) was announced
To invalidate means to cancel something or make it void, as if it never happened.
So by saying Demons can't be played, you're making Demon player's armies void, as if they never happened.
By saying Votann can't be played, you're telling people to wait a bit before buying in the army since nobody had a full collection when the ban (which is standard procedure for pre-faq codex for the events that did ban votann) was announced
That isn't what you said:
VladimirHerzog wrote:Nerfing Flamers invalidates some people's collections.
The point is the community were up in arms about 1 obviously broken book, people on here calling for year long bans, saying they hope the faction tanked etc. Obvious op units shouldn't exist. Then not long after we hear naught a fart nor a whisper of the same outcry for daemons.
I guess if no one is defending flamers it could explain the lack of discussion. It means we can't have "I'll accept Trajann is a bit good at 160, but if he's more than say 165 Custodes will not be a viable army..."
The point is the community were up in arms about 1 obviously broken book, people on here calling for year long bans, saying they hope the faction tanked etc. Obvious op units shouldn't exist. Then not long after we hear naught a fart nor a whisper of the same outcry for daemons.
Difference is that Votann had army-wide traits that were busted
Demons is like 1.5 datasheet, and i fully expect that the codex will drop sub 50% once flamers get their nerf
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: I guess if no one is defending flamers it could explain the lack of discussion. It means we can't have "I'll accept Trajann is a bit good at 160, but if he's more than say 165 Custodes will not be a viable army..."
this, its pretty much universally agreed that flamers are dumb, the closest thing to a defense i've seen was "When flamers get nerfed, if there isnt compensation buffs in the demon dex, its gonna be rough"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/02 15:48:57
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
The "tzeench" faction win rates, seem to point at the fact that a large chunk of people do not think that way. The very fact that we have "tzeench" as an army pop up in results, means that people are giving up their armies core rules, just to get in some flamers. Saying that no one runs more then one unit, if any. Is a bit like saying abadon isn't spamed, while at the same time we can talk what a Walking the Dogs list is.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
The "tzeench" faction win rates, seem to point at the fact that a large chunk of people do not think that way. The very fact that we have "tzeench" as an army pop up in results, means that people are giving up their armies core rules, just to get in some flamers. Saying that no one runs more then one unit, if any. Is a bit like saying abadon isn't spamed, while at the same time we can talk what a Walking the Dogs list is.
i said "Everyone I know" stopped running a ton of them because i play with reasonable people that want both players to enjoy the game.
tneva82 wrote: Uh flamers have been known for long to be busted. It's not exactly been secret or kept hidden. It's just that it's pointless to talk about it. Are they busted? Yes. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows they are going to get nerfed. GW itself mentioned before flamers as target for future change...
How much you need to talk about sun being hot? Because that's equally obvious statement as flamers are going to get a nerf.
Well, I don't know really. Did we need to discuss Votann, or Tyranids, or Harlequins, or Custodes and Tau etc? Probably not - they were all too good, were going to get nerfed and got nerfed. But people did so. Where are the 10-page threads on Dakka about how flamers are broken/no they are fine l2play/no 40k is an easy game I can only be beaten by netlists/ etc? Where is it if you move beyond to say Reddit, or the professional scene?
Putting a cynical hat on the people who benefit most from the flamers situation are the same people who would have been threatened by people with Votann, some groups of people out there have easy access to daemons armies or chaos soups because they've been around a long time, so they can leverage the situation. Whereas any Tom/Dick/Harry coming along and winning games with the new army by chance might make them look worse and be less easy for them to manipulate by acquiring pre-painted minis either 2nd hand or from player groups.
I'm not saying that's realistic and is a real tinfoil hat moment but it's an unlikely explanation.
Your point being? Everybody knows they are broken as hell. Everybody knows they will get nerf. Even GW said already before even these stats said they will be getting nerf.
There's no trying to hide they are busted. EVERYBODY SAYS THEY ARE BUSTED.
Gees. Again it's like saying sun is hot. Congrats on making the obvious statement EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY.
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
Middling competitive players have easy access to tournament ready chaos soup models either through borrowing or 2nd hand market. They can ride the new hotness without much hassle and if flamers aren't discussed that much then they get easy wins. They might get egg on their face if anyone can cobble together a random Votann army and beat them however by chance, so they might be inclined to get them "banned" or pre-nerfed in an attempt to avoid the "best" army being one they can't access.
Lol. They ride as long as they are busted while everybody knows and admits they are busted.
There's no need to go for detailed discussion because a) they are busted as hell b) everybody knows it c) there's no need to even push for GW to nerf them BECAUSE GW ALREADY SAID THEY WILL BE GETTING NERFS!
People aren't discussing them for same reason nobody is talking about how hot the sun is. Everybody knows it. It's waste of time. It takes intelligence level of 1 year old to figure out they are busted. And GW has long time ago said they will be nerfed. What the hell you are expecting to discuss?
"Hey flamers are busted"
"Yes they are very busted"
"So busted".
"Have you heard how busted they are?"
"Yes I said already they are busted"
"So busted".
There's extent of discussion about flamers that can be had. Interesting discussion?
If you think people are trying to hide how busted they are then lol have you ever spent 5 minutes reading about topic? Clearly not. They aren't being hidden. Everybody admits they are busted. It's just there's no need for repeat all the time ad infinum so there's no message about it every second(once per hour more than enough)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/02 19:21:34
tneva82 wrote: Uh flamers have been known for long to be busted. It's not exactly been secret or kept hidden. It's just that it's pointless to talk about it. Are they busted? Yes. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows they are going to get nerfed. GW itself mentioned before flamers as target for future change...
How much you need to talk about sun being hot? Because that's equally obvious statement as flamers are going to get a nerf.
Well, I don't know really. Did we need to discuss Votann, or Tyranids, or Harlequins, or Custodes and Tau etc? Probably not - they were all too good, were going to get nerfed and got nerfed. But people did so. Where are the 10-page threads on Dakka about how flamers are broken/no they are fine l2play/no 40k is an easy game I can only be beaten by netlists/ etc? Where is it if you move beyond to say Reddit, or the professional scene?
Putting a cynical hat on the people who benefit most from the flamers situation are the same people who would have been threatened by people with Votann, some groups of people out there have easy access to daemons armies or chaos soups because they've been around a long time, so they can leverage the situation. Whereas any Tom/Dick/Harry coming along and winning games with the new army by chance might make them look worse and be less easy for them to manipulate by acquiring pre-painted minis either 2nd hand or from player groups.
I'm not saying that's realistic and is a real tinfoil hat moment but it's an unlikely explanation.
Your point being? Everybody knows they are broken as hell. Everybody knows they will get nerf. Even GW said already before even these stats said they will be getting nerf.
There's no trying to hide they are busted. EVERYBODY SAYS THEY ARE BUSTED.
Gees. Again it's like saying sun is hot. Congrats on making the obvious statement EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY.
everyone i know that played flamers stopped bringing more than one unit in pick up games because of how dumb they are lol. Even in a tournament, i felt terrible as my two squads mulched my opponent's everything
Middling competitive players have easy access to tournament ready chaos soup models either through borrowing or 2nd hand market. They can ride the new hotness without much hassle and if flamers aren't discussed that much then they get easy wins. They might get egg on their face if anyone can cobble together a random Votann army and beat them however by chance, so they might be inclined to get them "banned" or pre-nerfed in an attempt to avoid the "best" army being one they can't access.
Lol. They ride as long as they are busted while everybody knows and admits they are busted.
There's no need to go for detailed discussion because a) they are busted as hell b) everybody knows it c) there's no need to even push for GW to nerf them BECAUSE GW ALREADY SAID THEY WILL BE GETTING NERFS!
People aren't discussing them for same reason nobody is talking about how hot the sun is. Everybody knows it. It's waste of time. It takes intelligence level of 1 year old to figure out they are busted. And GW has long time ago said they will be nerfed. What the hell you are expecting to discuss?
"Hey flamers are busted"
"Yes they are very busted"
"So busted".
"Have you heard how busted they are?"
"Yes I said already they are busted"
"So busted".
There's extent of discussion about flamers that can be had. Interesting discussion?
If you think people are trying to hide how busted they are then lol have you ever spent 5 minutes reading about topic? Clearly not. They aren't being hidden. Everybody admits they are busted. It's just there's no need for repeat all the time ad infinum so there's no message about it every second(once per hour more than enough)
That's a lot of words, capitals and hyperbole to completely miss the point.
Especially as they track win rates, 6 week win rates, weekly top 5% placings and 6 week tournament wins.
Flamers are way too good. They are also really strong (almost perfectly designed) to be used in a planet bowling ball game between two casual players who want to spend a 40k game rolling dice shooting at each other.
But, you can only take a maximum of 18. Currently 18 x 25 = 450. In January it will probably be 18 x 35 = 630. So at best you are playing 180 points up currently.
Compare to on release Harlequins who depending on where you get your data from are still the 4th best (GW's article) or 1st best (reddit 6 week win rate) faction.
Voidweavers were 90 points each, nerfed to 130.
Starweavers were 80 points, nerfed to 95 each.
Death Jester 55 to 70.
So, 9 Voidweavers, 2 Starweavers and 2 Death Jesters was playing up by 420 points.
They've also nerfed Luck Dice (3+2 down to 2), Light (both parts of the chapter tactic reduced), Dark (one half of the chapter tactic nuked from high orbit), a warlord trait and a points buy upgrade.
Compare to on release Votann.
Hekaton nerfed from 230 to 300.
Beserkers nerfed from 22 to 30.
Playing on release with 3 Hekaton and 30 Beserkers you were playing up by 450 points. And nearly every other unit went up too.
They also nerfed release Judgement Tokens.
For the Daemons book they will nerf Flamers, but are probably going to want to buff most of Nurgle and I think they should buff the Warp Storm Table (from 8 to 10 or 12 dice) to make mono Daemons worth it over Daemons mixed with other Chaos.
And when they do nerf Flamers, they may still need to nerf Harlequins and Votann at the same time (and Tyranids). That is how bonkers their release versions were, the nerfed version are still too good.
Planet bowling ball? How that helps flamers? Rather opposite as they don't have long range weapons but enjoy being able to hide from ones.
The more terrain I have had the better flamers been. Their speed ensures terrain can't be used to hide because when I'm in range I have been able to move to position terrain isn't in way. Meanwhile any good anti-flamer shooting weapon won't be able to see them until they have fired up.
Planet bowling ball? Noob flamer player wants to play on planet bowling ball.
EightFoldPath wrote: For the Daemons book they will nerf Flamers, but are probably going to want to buff most of Nurgle and I think they should buff the Warp Storm Table (from 8 to 10 or 12 dice) to make mono Daemons worth it over Daemons mixed with other Chaos.
I really liked your comment. Do you think rule changes should be used more or less sparingly than pts changes and if so why? Wouldn't mono-Daemons be more of an option when you have more pts-efficient datasheets? Won't people stop souping in Flamers once they go up in price anyways?
Nurgle needs serious help that can't come from just points tweaks unfortunately.
They do no damage and aren't resilient. Their one identity seems to be ways to mess with enemy obsec/auras, but that isn't enough to carry a subfaction.
