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 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 cranect wrote:
You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.

This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments

Or cad if your area allow it.

 slip wrote:
Can a painmob formation be taken as an ally with a list that has Zhadsnark as it's warlord?

Negative. Because Zhadsnarks rule is a army wide thing, it means that even if its in a different detachment or formation from Zhadsnark its still in the same army.

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 cranect wrote:
You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.

This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments

Right. Here's how I remember it:
Source A: Codex: Orks
Source B: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
If you take any formation compatible with A, then you can take relics from A. (includes formations in C:O, CAD, Unbound, etc.)
If you take a formation from B, then you can take relics from A and B in that formation.

This is actually less restrictive than the previous edition of W!G (hardcover), when you couldn't take relics from A. The obvious choice here being Da Lukky Stick. It's still not ideal, but that's the bone that GW has thrown us.

Played a 2000 point game last night against IG/AM.

I ran a new list:

Bully Boyz in Blitz Brigade with a full unit of Burnas and Tankbustas in the other two BW's. I also ran a Painboy with the TB's and Burnas. Grots for CAD.

Opponent had a formation of 4 Tauraxes with Stormtroopers inside. A formation of LR's and some foot troops.

He conceded top of third turn. The 12" scout move is unbelievable for getting everything in range. It was fun and quick. Try it out!

 Cleatus wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 cranect wrote:
You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.

This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments

Right. Here's how I remember it:
Source A: Codex: Orks
Source B: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
If you take any formation compatible with A, then you can take relics from A. (includes formations in C:O, CAD, Unbound, etc.)
If you take a formation from B, then you can take relics from A and B in that formation.

This is actually less restrictive than the previous edition of W!G (hardcover), when you couldn't take relics from A. The obvious choice here being Da Lukky Stick. It's still not ideal, but that's the bone that GW has thrown us.

this just isnt true, go and read page 52, it says that if you take a detachment or formation from B then you can take relics from A and B, but the codex doesnt say anything to the same effect?

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 Cleatus wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 cranect wrote:
You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.

This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments

Right. Here's how I remember it:
Source A: Codex: Orks
Source B: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
If you take any formation compatible with A, then you can take relics from A. (includes formations in C:O, CAD, Unbound, etc.)
If you take a formation from B, then you can take relics from A and B in that formation.

This is actually less restrictive than the previous edition of W!G (hardcover), when you couldn't take relics from A. The obvious choice here being Da Lukky Stick. It's still not ideal, but that's the bone that GW has thrown us.

this just isnt true, go and read page 52, it says that if you take a detachment or formation from B then you can take relics from A and B, but the codex doesnt say anything to the same effect?

Yep if you take a detachment/formation from W!G then you can take relics from either book. If you take a CAD or a detachment from the codex orks then you are limited to the codex relics.

Sadly I have not had a reply from GW which I asked about this just in case as I want to be wrong so bad haha

 Glitcha wrote:

 slip wrote:
Can a painmob formation be taken as an ally with a list that has Zhadsnark as it's warlord?

Negative. Because Zhadsnarks rule is a army wide thing, it means that even if its in a different detachment or formation from Zhadsnark its still in the same army.

Does this mean I can take ork warbikes as a troop choice in an allied list than? Since it's a army wide rule.

only if it is an ork detachment, a CAD or allied detachment only allows you to choose from one faction.

edit:

Speed Freek Warboss
Note that Zhadsnark is not intended for use in an Ork
Dread Mob army. Instead he should be used as a HQ
choice in an army selected from Codex: Orks.

In fact, you are not allowed to take allies, your army has to be selected from Codex: Orks (so also no waaagh! detachments?)

killerdou wrote:


In fact, you are not allowed to take allies, your army has to be selected from Codex: Orks (so also no waaagh! detachments?)

I thought Waagh detachments still count as from codex orks since the WG suplement doesn't have points in them.

Congrats on getting this thread to 81 pages. All of the discussions and insights on here have been very helpful. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Woo, Orks iz da Best! (even if we don't get fun new psyker powers that let us make "floating castles" )

Anyway...

Soliciting opinions from the Warbosses out there:

What makes for a better "chaff" unit versus Necrons -- Ork Boyz or Gretchin?
General consensus seems to be that you're better off tying up units of Necron Warriors in assault than trying to out-shoot them, with the understanding that the unit will be a tarpit for the rest of the game. Is there any advantage to shoveling Grots at Warriors instead of Boyz? What about against Destroyers in assault?

 Cleatus wrote:
Woo, Orks iz da Best! (even if we don't get fun new psyker powers that let us make "floating castles" )

Anyway...

Soliciting opinions from the Warbosses out there:

What makes for a better "chaff" unit versus Necrons -- Ork Boyz or Gretchin?
General consensus seems to be that you're better off tying up units of Necron Warriors in assault than trying to out-shoot them, with the understanding that the unit will be a tarpit for the rest of the game. Is there any advantage to shoveling Grots at Warriors instead of Boyz? What about against Destroyers in assault?

Boyz are a much, much better option. Grotz majority T2 makes them get cut down by necron warriors far too easily compared to Orks, as Necrons will hit on 3's and wound on 2's with you not having an armour save. Even with the squighound upgrade for the runtherd you're likely to lose combat by at least 3-5 given that your grots wound only on 6's and unless you have a stompa nearby you'll break pretty easily. Boyz have it much better, especially with a painboy in the unit, as Necron warriors only have 1 attack each so its unlikely they'll get through a decent sized mob anytime soon. Similarly, destroyers are better tied up by boyz but optimally you want to send in Meganobz after either unit since they can actually do decent damage while taking little if any in return thanks to 2W and 2+ save.

Yeah. The one time I played necrons (not much variety at my FLGS) I was able to tie up most of his standard 'crons with a mob of 20-ish boys (after casualties), though I couldn't really kill him that quickly, either. Definitely send in boyz. Honestly, gretchin are really only useful as roadbumps in front of lootas or mek guns, or to hold objectives.

Agreed. Grots are great fences that block somebody's movement phase. Just run them right up to the necron unit and do nothing.

And if they get shot on the way, great, that's a whole unit of 'crons not shooting at your boyz.

I've got a question for y'all.

In the thread linked below, I asked whether or not the KFF affected all models or just friendly models. DeathReaper presented a hell of an argument (psychic powers were even brought up) and we never got to a clear conclusion as to whether or not enemy models were included too.

Link for reading not posting: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/659420.page

Here are my questions:

What's your take on whether or not the KFF affects all models?

And where would you place the Mek carrying the KFF?

Well it does say all models.It gets a little fuzzy with some of the ally rules saying they can't benefit from each other's abilities, but I'd say they'd get the 5++ too because of the specific wording of the KFF.

Besides, this means they're at least 6" of the ork army in the ork shooting phase with charges being declared next, both armies have bigger issues than a 5++ vs ork shooting to worry about.

It's like how the old Repair Tools rule the Meks had didn't say "Friendly vehicles" or even "Damaged Vehicles"- so a Mek in b2b contact with an enemy, undamaged vehicle could attempt to 'repair' it, get over-enthusiastic, and give it the Shaken status. I don't think that rule survived with that wording, though.

But yeah. All models period is so much more Orky.

Is it legal to take the ork supplement as an allIed detachment to codex orks?

Does anyone have any idea for good formations to get as allies for the orks and boost our army without losing much flavor?

Mayhem pack looks good for deepstriking meltas.

 thenewgozoku wrote:
Does anyone have any idea for good formations to get as allies for the orks and boost our army without losing much flavor?

Mayhem pack looks good for deepstriking meltas.

was thinking of taking the eldar crimson death formation and getting orking up the units with massive exhausts, metal plates etc. gives the best anti air in the game and can help us pop tanks turn 2 to assault whatever we want and clear the potentially hart to reach units ont he other side of the table.

Menosj wrote:
Is it legal to take the ork supplement as an allIed detachment to codex orks?

No.

You can take any of the formations alongside a Detachment/Formation from the main codex.

 thenewgozoku wrote:
Does anyone have any idea for good formations to get as allies for the orks and boost our army without losing much flavor?

Mayhem pack looks good for deepstriking meltas.

An orky psykana op formation with attached "ork" commissars ready to smash one of his hostage's head in for not doing their job would be pretty funny.

The new renegade knight with diuble ranged weapons are Allies Of Convenience for Orks (they count as CSM for the ally chart,) so there's that.

 Swampmist wrote:
The new renegade knight with diuble ranged weapons are Allies Of Convenience for Orks (they count as CSM for the ally chart,) so there's that.

Good use for a Gorkanaut to have it act as a counts as Chaos Knight.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
It is obvious to any observer that the Ork codex doesn't have any super OP spammable units that usually make codexes top tier.

This is exactly what's wrong with 40k. It's not the game, it's the gamers. "Wow, let me rush out and buy a 500 quid army so I can play against a bunch of spammers, because THE WORLD NEEDS MORE SPAM."

 NoPoet wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
It is obvious to any observer that the Ork codex doesn't have any super OP spammable units that usually make codexes top tier.

This is exactly what's wrong with 40k. It's not the game, it's the gamers. "Wow, let me rush out and buy a 500 quid army so I can play against a bunch of spammers, because THE WORLD NEEDS MORE SPAM."

Nah its the game. Decurion is crazy powerful and its basically a "take basically anything in this list and you will be a lot stronger than majority of the other factions". A person fielding Decurion isn't min/maxing to get all the benefits and could take whatever they want and still be successful in casual games. Eldar, Tau, Necrons don't really have to try to be crazy powerful compared to say Dark Eldar, Orks, Nids, etc. At least space marines have to try and work the system to min/max something that is competitive. Sure the players push the envelope to the extremes but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the Eldar codex and the Dark Eldar codex are not even in the same ball park in terms of power.

I'm confused. At which point are gamers forced to take specialist formations, or eight greater daemons? What prevents them from using the models they enjoy to have a fun game? The 40K rulebook insists we forge a narrative, I haven't seen anything which says "Take these combos for instant win because it's FUN"?

Formations (the strongest ones) push things further away from the base line but many formations do offer some very fluffy ways to play an army. Playing a Battle Company can very much be Forging the Narrative by playing "the valiant Ultramarines fighting in the defense of the Imperium from the foul xenos threat" or it could be somebody trying to compete at a tournament. Even without formations somebody wanting to play a Saim-Hann inspired army with lots of jetbikes could very much be playing a narrative focused list or all those jet bikes could be an attempt to roflstomp kids.

Even if we just randomly put down units for an army list there is still going to be massive imbalance issues. A randomly selected assortment of Eldar models is still going to be a much more effective army than doing the same random selection process for Dark Eldar or Orks. I get that we end up with stuff like Draigo Centstars because people are working the system to maximize their army power but there is still a massive divide between the relative power level of Orks or Tyranids compared to the relative power of Necrons or Eldar.

Gamers aren't forced to do anything but a person bringing a bunch of Killa Kans, boyz on foot, and kommandos is going to have a REALLY bad time trying to play against a Tau player who brings...... basically anything.