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I notice that the big mek in GW's sample list is specifically called 'Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun'. I suspect that means the SAG BM will be a separate datasheet to the normal one. Not very interesting, just a random observation.

Yeah I think ard boys is a 5+ save simply because of its interaction with bloodaxe clan traits. Blood axes are already one of the better clan traits and if you could spend like 6cp to have 90 boyz with space marine saves that would be a little put of hand.

ManTube wrote:
Yeah I think ard boys is a 5+ save simply because of its interaction with bloodaxe clan traits. Blood axes are already one of the better clan traits and if you could spend like 6cp to have 90 boyz with space marine saves that would be a little put of hand.

but according to space marine players, 3+ armor saves is the worse!
But seriously, I imagine 'ard boyz would be useful in some circumstances. I also doubt it'd be usable for any unit.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

ManTube wrote:
Yeah I think ard boys is a 5+ save simply because of its interaction with bloodaxe clan traits. Blood axes are already one of the better clan traits and if you could spend like 6cp to have 90 boyz with space marine saves that would be a little put of hand.

but according to space marine players, 3+ armor saves is the worse!
But seriously, I imagine 'ard boyz would be useful in some circumstances. I also doubt it'd be usable for any unit.

Uhh, well, these guys would be 7 points each instead of 13, so, yea still possibly the short end of the stick for marines. And I don't believe standard orks will get to 3+ since they won't get double cover saves.4+ is tops - 2+ for flash gitz.

 Ratius wrote:

No kannons, lobbas, or zzap gunz in codex.

Disappointed face :(

Nooooooooo!!!!

I've been slowly building my all Grot list to have 3 full units of kannons!
Ugh.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, I don't see 5+ armor being worth 2CP...

What about a 3+ armor save on flash gitz? And then make the Blood Axes so they're "always in cover" for a 2+. LOL

You could make a whole Blood Axe army of Orks sitting on a 4+ armor save if you wanted to burn the CP.

I doubt that the stratagem works on anything but boyz and is anything but "their armor save is 5+". There is no way their are having two +1 armor stratagems in one codex.

There is the looting stratagem though, so after destroying a vehicle you could end up with 3+ bloodaxe 'ard boyz anyways. If they could loot their own battlewagon after it gets blown up... that's something I would pay 2CP for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

No kannons, lobbas, or zzap gunz in codex.

Disappointed face :(

Nooooooooo!!!!

I've been slowly building my all Grot list to have 3 full units of kannons!
Ugh.

Kannons are still available from the index and the gun is still used on the battlewagon turret. So no need to worry yet.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, I don't see 5+ armor being worth 2CP...

What about a 3+ armor save on flash gitz? And then make the Blood Axes so they're "always in cover" for a 2+. LOL

You could make a whole Blood Axe army of Orks sitting on a 4+ armor save if you wanted to burn the CP.

I doubt that the stratagem works on anything but boyz and is anything but "their armor save is 5+". There is no way their are having two +1 armor stratagems in one codex.

There is the looting stratagem though, so after destroying a vehicle you could end up with 3+ bloodaxe 'ard boyz anyways. If they could loot their own battlewagon after it gets blown up... that's something I would pay 2CP for.

Also. We don't know if Flash Gits will get a Klan Key word or not. Right now they don't have it. No clan affiliation no blood axe Flash Gitz. Unless I am mistaken.

!50USD = 130euro.
eek.

GW lost me on this one.
Without a discount,
or Chinese resin,
I am not adding to my ork army this year.

Currently, I'm not too surprised that the normal Big Gunz aren't in the new dex, given their old models and lack of incentive on GW's part to replace them with all the 3rd party models (I know mine are). My main beef is that it means we're going to be stuck with their current points costs and rules, which means lobbas are basically relegated to almost "never take" status sadly. It's a far cry from their use in 7th ed, where they could snipe out special weapons and such.

 Grimskul wrote:
Currently, I'm not too surprised that the normal Big Gunz aren't in the new dex, given their old models and lack of incentive on GW's part to replace them with all the 3rd party models (I know mine are). My main beef is that it means we're going to be stuck with their current points costs and rules, which means lobbas are basically relegated to almost "never take" status sadly. It's a far cry from their use in 7th ed, where they could snipe out special weapons and such.

Lobbas will still be useful to fill out heavy slots. At 30 points for BS4+ 48" indirect fire, they often will get their points back.

ETA: Now that I think about it...at 48" for D6 ST5 shots, these things are better than firewariors...obviously without all the synergy rules. Has anyone ever fielded 12 of them, like an infantry line? For 360 points, you'd get 21 ST5 hits per turn, basically anywhere on the board.

My experience with Lobbas is that they basically never earn their points back. The only time I had one earn its points back was when it killed a terminator in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I haven't thought about it too deeply, but Fire Warriors are point for point better at everything than Lobbas other than the narrow use of sitting behind some terrain far in the back field preventing deep strikes (which is of course what Lobbas are for).

Fire Warriors get more hits at 16-30". They get more than twice as many at 15" and less. Fire Warriors are more durable, faster, better at board control, have Objective Secured, are better in close combat, they're just plain better in just about every way. That is, like you said, not counting synergy which Fire Warriors have a lot of.

IG Mortars are basically as good as Lobbas (not counting IG synergy and special stuff) for 11 points. Of course IG Mortars are often considered overpowered, so they might not be tje best thing to be basing Lobba points off of.

I figure Lobbas should be 20 points or less.

I've never used twelve lobbas. I've used six in a game several times, and they hardly kill anything. I mostly take them because I think Big Gunz are cool.

So far the leaks have been fairly underwhelming. The 5+ stratagem seems weak, the buggies likewise seem rather lackluster with their rules which is strange since even I assumed GW would make them borderline OP in order to boost their sales. The Stompa rules are better than I expected but we need to see the new price that accompanies those shooting boosts before I make up my mind.

Overall, I am a bit worried but somewhat optimistic. I am hoping the points drop drastically across the board and we may be able to use these guys in bulk as they are intended.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Currently, I'm not too surprised that the normal Big Gunz aren't in the new dex, given their old models and lack of incentive on GW's part to replace them with all the 3rd party models (I know mine are). My main beef is that it means we're going to be stuck with their current points costs and rules, which means lobbas are basically relegated to almost "never take" status sadly. It's a far cry from their use in 7th ed, where they could snipe out special weapons and such.

Lobbas will still be useful to fill out heavy slots. At 30 points for BS4+ 48" indirect fire, they often will get their points back.

ETA: Now that I think about it...at 48" for D6 ST5 shots, these things are better than firewariors...obviously without all the synergy rules. Has anyone ever fielded 12 of them, like an infantry line? For 360 points, you'd get 21 ST5 hits per turn, basically anywhere on the board.

Gotta agree with Dakka Dakka Flame that Lobbas are not a great investment. The no LoS thing seems good, until you realize that you have to roll a random number of shots, only hit on a 4+, and it has 0 AP. If it had some AP, and a bonus to hit or something against infantry, I could see it doing something. But as is, it's very lacklustre and Orks generally speaking don't need much help in the anti-infantry department. It's basically a glorified big shoota, and we know how effective those things are.

I was thinking about this earlier today. At what points values are these buggies playable/competetive?

 jeff white wrote:
!50USD = 130euro.
eek.

GW lost me on this one.
Without a discount,
or Chinese resin,
I am not adding to my ork army this year.

It's rumoured to be 90 pounds which means 120e price bracket for eu

Edit: btw never look at official conversion rate to figure out prices. Gw has fixed own ratio. Instead find existing model with same price and use that. Speed freak is rumoured to be 90 pounds which is same as tooth and claw. Check how much that is in desired currency

Obi_wang wrote:
I was thinking about this earlier today. At what points values are these buggies playable/competetive?

I am honestly expecting them to be 180-220 points. Most of them have a shooting and melee profile which always seems to find it's way to a price point that is excessive (like flash gitz). It will not prevent me from having one of each though.

Naah they will float around 100-120. Still steep thouhg

tneva82 wrote:
Naah they will float around 100-120. Still steep thouhg

Ugh, I was afraid of that...

<nvm>

5+ save 'Ard boys, man I wish it were 4+. However, for 2cp it might be worth it sometimes, if you have a super large unit and your opponent relies on attacks without an AP value. If nobs can take 4+ armor as an upgrade (like in the past), that might be okay and boost them to a 3+ save.

Obi_wang wrote:
I was thinking about this earlier today. At what points values are these buggies playable/competetive?

well, lets compare them to the only thing in the codex that is similar
old warbuggies/wartracks (with prcies updated from last CA)
warbuggy rokits 57
warbuggy bigshootas 43
wartrack rokits 61
wartrack bigshootas 47
skorcha 54

1 pl=20 pt in estimate and since it seems all the new buggies have no upgrasde options then we can asume the pl has little to no variables from the pts. so that leaves;
scrapjet/boom blasta/snazzwagon 100ish
dethkilla trike/shockjump dragsta 120ish
squigbuggie 140ish

i went to a tournament recently and bright a bunch of skorchas. my opinion was they had a lot of bark but very little bite. my opponents lamented having to deal with so many wounds but my damage output was not enough to do anything significant.

i would say having the new buggies around double the price of the old buggies makes them questionable to me. they would have to have double the firepower of 2 of the old buggies, but that is actually possible with some of them, they have around the same amount of wounds as 2 old buggiesand the same armor so thus are the same amount of survivability. now this will come down to the potential damage output. the shockjump seems to be the one that stands out for its antitank bs3 goodness. the squigbuggies seems too expensive, i cant realy compare the wartrike (would have to compare it with a warboss), the snazwagon/boomblasta/dscrapjet seem better with dakka but not that much. i would say for the oldbuggies to be good would that they would have to at least drop to maybe 40pts at most for the most expensive upgrades. then the new buggies would have to be within the ranges of 80/90/100pts to be useful.

i did not calculate in the clan traits mainly becasue both types of buggies can use them and thus comparisons wouldn't do much
i dont do mathhammer so dont expect anything about that. many of these buggies will need personal experience from me to see if i find them worth the pts compared to the index ones when i get the new codex..

Nobz already have 4+ armor in 8th, no need for an upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
So far the leaks have been fairly underwhelming. The 5+ stratagem seems weak, the buggies likewise seem rather lackluster with their rules which is strange since even I assumed GW would make them borderline OP in order to boost their sales. The Stompa rules are better than I expected but we need to see the new price that accompanies those shooting boosts before I make up my mind.

Overall, I am a bit worried but somewhat optimistic. I am hoping the points drop drastically across the board and we may be able to use these guys in bulk as they are intended.

Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.

 Jidmah wrote:
Nobz already have 4+ armor in 8th, no need for an upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
So far the leaks have been fairly underwhelming. The 5+ stratagem seems weak, the buggies likewise seem rather lackluster with their rules which is strange since even I assumed GW would make them borderline OP in order to boost their sales. The Stompa rules are better than I expected but we need to see the new price that accompanies those shooting boosts before I make up my mind.

Overall, I am a bit worried but somewhat optimistic. I am hoping the points drop drastically across the board and we may be able to use these guys in bulk as they are intended.

Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.

I think, and mind you I am fairly new to the hobby, that the problem is that 100+ points the buggies loose a lot of their appeal. The profiles all look good, but if you cant bring enough redundancy they simply don't get anything done.

 Jidmah wrote:


Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.

Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.

Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.

The Boom-dakka is weak as well. 9 shots, 3 hits, maybe an extra one from Dakka Dakka Dakka. Str 5, Ap-2, 1 dmg. Not sure what I'm aiming that gun at but I can't think of many targets that really care. 2D6 Shoota shots that ignore cover at 6" range also aren't really worth noting.

The Boota gets 6 Deffgun shots, meaning 2 hits. We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking. Strapping a couple onto a buggy chassis doesn't make that worth taking either. Neither does strapping 4 Burna Boyz to the back; we've had Burnas for the same period of time and we don't take them either. 8 auto-hitting Str 4 shots kills what, 4 Guardsmen? Maybe a single Marine in the open?

As to the Squig-Buggy, this thing is going to be the Flash-Gitz of the Codex: over-priced, tries to do everything and ends up doing badly at all of them. I can't even think of a role for this thing.

At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.

 Glane wrote:

Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.

Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.

The Boom-dakka is weak as well. 9 shots, 3 hits, maybe an extra one from Dakka Dakka Dakka. Str 5, Ap-2, 1 dmg. Not sure what I'm aiming that gun at but I can't think of many targets that really care. 2D6 Shoota shots that ignore cover at 6" range also aren't really worth noting.

The Boota gets 6 Deffgun shots, meaning 2 hits. We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking. Strapping a couple onto a buggy chassis doesn't make that worth taking either. Neither does strapping 4 Burna Boyz to the back; we've had Burnas for the same period of time and we don't take them either. 8 auto-hitting Str 4 shots kills what, 4 Guardsmen? Maybe a single Marine in the open?

As to the Squig-Buggy, this thing is going to be the Flash-Gitz of the Codex: over-priced, tries to do everything and ends up doing badly at all of them. I can't even think of a role for this thing.

At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.

I think you're wrong on the armaments of the megatrakk skrapjet. The Rokkitkannon is the weapon on its right wing. On its left wing it has two guns that are most likely shooting bullets because shells are coming out of them and rokkits firing on that wing as well. So I'd wager it has the rokkitkannon, maybe a pair of supashootas and something like a rack of rokkits as well. It also might be, as you stated, BS4+ but I doubt it. It might have base strength 6 or more attacks in CC though

I just think it general that it's way too early to condemn any of these vehicles. We don't know the exact point costs, stratagems and other synergies. The only one I have a really hard time seeing how it'd work is that squigbuggy

I might be wrong on this, but both buggies (dragsta and scrapjet) easily outshoot comparable imperial and chaos vehicles which clock in at 140+ points, who all see play regularly. Not on the top tables of GT, but everywhere else. Those are more durable due to 3+ saves but that usually boils down to rolling 6+ armor or 5++ anyways.

So I see no reason why their durability should be a problem. As far as we know they are going to be T6/8W/4+ and you can have up to 9 of each. If you factor in KFF, deff skullz, snakebite or blood axe clan traits, they are of similar durability as a rhino, helbrute or ravager - all those see play.

I was unsure about taking this buggies for 80 pts. No uncertainty if they are 100+.

i would argue that the boom blasta will be good.
A-its going to be a little cheaper then the shockjump
b-it can do mortal wounds on the charge.

bring the shockjump in detachments of either evilsunz (to not incur advancing negatives to shooting) or as badmoons to reroll ones for ultimate shooting.

then bring the boom blastas in a detachment of bloodaxes to charge anything big for the mortal wounds (while shooting anything else thats meq). the bloodaxe trait will allow them to pop in and out combat for maximizing those mortal wounds.

luckily the 2 vehicles that seem good to me are both in the speedfreeks box.

i have a suspicion that the gorkanaut will come back in style, but only one per list. keep it behind as the rest of the force rushes ahead and then teleport strat that thing right in the enemies face (have this be evilsunz so it can get bonus to charge),

the defkilla sounds good to for his bonuses, but not for speed freeks. most ork vehicles that arnt transporting infantry often perform better in shooting roles and thus wouldn't charge often enough to benefit from the waaagh (except the new boom blasta). instead the defkilla seems like it will be best for all ork walkers (evilsunz trait for speed). helping them get right into the enemies face (killakanz with rokets or kmb can be decent too being able to advance without loosing effectiveness on their shooting).
but as far as dreddmobs go we will have to see how much they dropped in pts before we jump ahead of ourselves (since i have an abundance of dreddmob i will definitely be trying out this list ).

 Glane wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.

Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.

Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.

Maybe you should give the model another look:


The article clearly said that the rokkit kannon is just one of it's guns. Just from the model, we have at least 1-3 additional rokkit shots and something that could be a twin big shoota, supa-shoota, dakka gun or a single deff gun.

At BS5+, assuming one rokkit launcha and twin big shootas, it will deal 1.88 wounds to T8/3+/5++, while the dragsta deals 2.27 damage. In reality, this means that they will most likely will score one rokkit hit each two out of three turns. The scrapjet has a better close combat weapon and from PL we can assume it s about 20 points less than the dragsta.

If one is viable, the other one is very close by, if the scrapjet gets more than rokkit shot or BS4+, it will be on equal footing with the dragsta, for less points.

We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking.

KMK putting out three times as much firepower than a loota per point is more relevant to them not appearing than the profile of their gun.

At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.

I see no reason to point a rokkit kannon at infantry.

I also feel like it's quite possible the megatrakk skrapjet has a stratgem tied to it which enables it to fly for the remainder of the turn. That would make the commercial ring a bit more true, and even with the fly nerf in the charge phase it would still be able to hit fliers in CC.

Obviously this is just me taking a wild guess, but stuff like that could add a lot of versatility to the vehicle. Also, it'd make the flyboy happy and isn't that always our number one concern?