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So i recently started playing at my LGS and during my first game i got my ass handed to me by an all infiltrate army of Eldars.

it ran something like this

6x war walkers ( those things has 6 ranged attack each str6 ap - )
1x yriel
1x striking scorp pheonix lord
30x striking scorpions
2 packs of 10 dire avengers in a wave serpent each.

So being unprepared for all this i got myself ripped to shreds and sent packing. I played deamon hunters against him , however this time i plan to take my lil sisters for the trip.

I was wondering if it was possible to use a callidus assasin to her skill to make the ennemy move 1 of his guys on the table insted of keeping in outflank.

Also how would you guys build an army list that includes both sisters/Dh to fight against that ?

Smack down three Land Raiders and say "Come get some?"

Just stay away from the edge, and you should get a turn to shoot the Scorpions (I would shoot them, but, then again, I'd be rapid firing Ap3 bolters in his face) or RUN LIKE HELL!. I'd imagine that all mechanized would cause problems for a list like that. If I recall the "Whipser in your ear" correctly, I don't think she can move things onto the board.

That's a 2000 points roster, correct?

rapid firing ap3 bolters? isnt that assuming you have thousand sons is it not ?.

it was for a 1850pts game.

If your opponent infiltrates his entire army, then deploy your entire army in reserve and that way you get a guaranteed first shot (possibly assault if he deploys too close to the board edge). If he keeps everything outflanking, then deploy your army all to one side with models all along the short edge, topped with an expendable vehicle or unit. When his units come on, they will come on the "wrong" side 1/3 of the time, and the rest of the time they will have to fight through sacrificial units and face being destroyed by your counter-attack.

Keeping everything in reserve sounds like a fine Idea as it tips the information game in your favor as you know where everything is, he does not but both of you do not know when a unit is coming n the board... so make sure when you deploy, you deploy the unit in a place for maximum damage to the opponent or a maximum distance away from the infiltrated offender...

Denied flank deployment with expendable units on the table edge to absorb assaults works well. Your opponent is going to come in piece-meal, even with the +1 reserves from the Autarch (Yriel in this case), and also any unit that gets the wrong edge (1/3 chance with each unit) Will be even that much more separated from that battle.

Honestly, I think that the list you wrote would hand out easy wins to good players uless everything went right for the Eldar player.

I've had alot of luck with a denied flank approach against heavy outflankers. If you set up tightly bunched right on the edges in a corner, you can make it so that infiltrators can not come on with any benefit on one side of the board, and limit what they can do on the other.

Since models cannot move within an inch of one of your models, that equates to about a 3" area you can place between your screen.

The key with outflank armies is to give them things you want them to shoot or assault, so you can destroy them on your next turn, and to hurt them when they roll to bring things in on the wrong side by leaving them high and dry and in BFE.

Ok lets gear this up a bit. You have been suggesting denied flanks but what about a more mobile army. Say an all Outflank Marine bike army? Lets say it has 2 command squads with power weapons (PF/LC with SS). 3 biker squads (flamer/melta bomb) with attatched metlabikes and 2 squads of 2 meltabikes for a total of 7 squads. Theoretically you will be facing 3-4 squads on second turn, with a dead 1st and second turn because I would always want to go second. And remember if you pack into a corner you are shooting through your own units for a penalty (4+ cover save for firing through own units). What would you do? Hope that the outflank rolls suck?

This is an odd question, IMO... I skimmed the thread, and said to myself, "too bad this guy isn't playing SoB." Then I read your post again, and realized you are...

Infiltrating against Sisters? All he's doing at that point is putting his guys in a place where you can burn them down turn 1.

With Mech Sisters, your biggest fear is that he gets some of your Rhinos before you can get to him. Normally that means he's on his back edge, forcing you to drive a turn, then drive and assault. That means you take 1-2 turns of his shooting. Even then, it's a very viable army.

In this case, he's got very, very little that can hurt Rhinos, and a lot of stuff that will suffer from Divine Guidance. And he's starting close, so you can jump all over him.

Just deploy in a line abreast biased towards the center, in as much cover as possible, then go get him. If he's any good at all, he'll realize that he doesn't want to be close to Mech Sisters, and he'll try to give his WarWalkers time to work on your Rhinos, so he'll castle up in one corner and make you come to him.

Even then, you should have no trouble, his list just isn't very good...

Also, note that he has a grand total of two Troops choices in his list. He's going to really suck in objective based missions. But I'm guessing he doesn't play the missions in the book (just a hunch).

ALSO, note that he has huge holes in dealing with armor. As people have said, he has nothing at all to deal with a Land Raider. Even AV13 will give him major problems. So, if you can't just snap your fingers and have the exact Mech Sisters list I'm imagining, then whatever you do have with AV13+ will ruin his day.

eltharion72 wrote:Ok lets gear this up a bit. You have been suggesting denied flanks but what about a more mobile army. Say an all Outflank Marine bike army? Lets say it has 2 command squads with power weapons (PF/LC with SS). 3 biker squads (flamer/melta bomb) with attatched metlabikes and 2 squads of 2 meltabikes for a total of 7 squads. Theoretically you will be facing 3-4 squads on second turn, with a dead 1st and second turn because I would always want to go second. And remember if you pack into a corner you are shooting through your own units for a penalty (4+ cover save for firing through own units). What would you do? Hope that the outflank rolls suck?

Are we talking outflanking space marine scout bikers? If so, my hydras might actually get to use their special targetting rules finally If i am playing my guard or mech marines I usually don't have to deal with the shooting through units problem, because tanks are tall enough to not be affected by the screen troops in front of them. And, again, I would probably be playing guard here - so you would have to deal with officer of the fleet as well.

Now granted, I wouldn't castle with every army on every game. If I was playing my Mech Blood Angels or playing any objective heavy scenarios I would concentrate on objectives on the middle of the table and on one side. Armored squads in chimeras or rhinos would take objectives near one edge of the table with my significant fire support farther in. On a successful outflank, you might blow up one of my light armored APC's but then the squad that came on should hopefull meet its doom to combined fire. The key with outflanking armies, is that they are going to arrive piecemeal and you need to eliminate them mas such.

The other weakness of an outlfanking army is that SOME of their units will come on, on the wrong edge - you can sometimes use this to your advantage and buy yourself time to deal with things one or two at a time.

Those AP3 bolters are sternguard too, not just 1K Sons. (If someone already answered that, I apologize.) With that eldar list, unless I'm an idiot and can't remember my codices, he only has two troops choices, and they might not even come in until turn 5. Playing sisters against that list, he is just begging for you to drive rhinos full of girls over to the objectives turns one and two, and sit there with all those burny-sista template weapons and beckon him forward. Or use your superior mobility to make his life ugly when those piecemeal units come in a few at a time. Scorpions come on. Scorpions fleet. Rhinos unload sisters. Templates kill scorpions. I think the only thing that lost you your first game was the catastrophically low model count in a daemonhunters army. Against 3+ armor, scorpions aren't all that great at all. He's pinning the hopes of most of his army on a bunch of assault troops that can't penetrate armor. Your sisters should have little trouble eating that list.

eltharion72 wrote:Ok lets gear this up a bit. You have been suggesting denied flanks but what about a more mobile army. Say an all Outflank Marine bike army? Lets say it has 2 command squads with power weapons (PF/LC with SS). 3 biker squads (flamer/melta bomb) with attatched metlabikes and 2 squads of 2 meltabikes for a total of 7 squads. Theoretically you will be facing 3-4 squads on second turn, with a dead 1st and second turn because I would always want to go second. And remember if you pack into a corner you are shooting through your own units for a penalty (4+ cover save for firing through own units). What would you do? Hope that the outflank rolls suck?

Well first off, if you are outflanking everything I'm going to make you go first, so you don't always get to go second. Actually, I pretty much always want my opponent to go first, the information gained from deploying second is so much more valuable than the first round of shooting imo.

Anyway, yes, with 7 units then on average 3-4 will come in on turn 2. However, since they are outflanking, on average 1/3 of them will come in on the "wrong" side (since my whole army is grouped up on one edge). This means that I'm really only "dealing" with 2-3 units, not 3-4. So now you've got about 1/3 to 1/2 of your army fighting against 100% of my army. Guess who's gonna win that fight (doesn't matter how tough command squads are, feed them some throwaway units and torrent them down, they still fail 1/6 of their saves with a 3+/FNP)? That's the problem with all outflanking, is that by grouping up on one side, your opponent can turn it into a fight between his entire army and half of yours (which assuming he isn't awful at list-making, is a fight you are going to lose ~100% of the time).

Also, true you will get a 4+ cover save for my shooting through my own units, but who cares? You have a 3+ armor save! The way to kill marines (especially bike marines) isn't with a few AP3 shots, it's with a torrent of smaller arms fire. My rapid-firing bolters are just as effective shooting through my own guys as they are shooting you in the open.

simple! take lots of guys and line em up on one of the table edges. I've had people do that against me when I played my nids with lots of stealers. One necron player lined up his short board edge with a warrior unit then turbo boosted some scarabs to cover the other. I believe if an outflanking unit has to move onto a particular board edge and cant without moving within 1" of an enemy it is destroyed.

I like having Tar-pit units on the side to protect me from assaults... then I can just assault them right back...

Charging to the center of the board works as well. All you have to do is corridor.

Most boards are 6x4;

6 feet is 72 inches

THE MOST a unit could possibly move on and assault you is 24 inches. I dont know of many units taht go beyond that.

The next would be if you set up normal and not spearhead just do that.

Basically just castle and blow them to hell.


Imperial guard valkyries are one of the few that this doesnt really benefit that much against.

Arbalest wrote:If your opponent infiltrates his entire army, then deploy your entire army in reserve and that way you get a guaranteed first shot (possibly assault if he deploys too close to the board edge). If he keeps everything outflanking, then deploy your army all to one side with models all along the short edge, topped with an expendable vehicle or unit. When his units come on, they will come on the "wrong" side 1/3 of the time, and the rest of the time they will have to fight through sacrificial units and face being destroyed by your counter-attack.

You have to start with at least one model on the board or you would lose automatically.

Infiltrate and Outflanking armies are usually assault ones so try to use tactics you would use on assault armies. They come from the side so if you're going to try to shoot them, then try the old IG Spearhead tactic, that seems to work well. SM, can effectively use it as well. But, I'm not sure of the other races.

I think a couple of peope have already hit on the best solution: take the center. You have two turns of free manuever if your opponent makes you go first, which should allow you to take the center of the board relatively unimpeded. Put your slower troops on the flanks to take objectives and leave your more mobile troops in the center to reinforce either side as needed. If there is halfway decent cover, your opponent will have a tough time getting all his fire support lined up properly and you will have time to pick and choose which of his units to engage.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:

Arbalest wrote:If your opponent infiltrates his entire army, then deploy your entire army in reserve and that way you get a guaranteed first shot (possibly assault if he deploys too close to the board edge). If he keeps everything outflanking, then deploy your army all to one side with models all along the short edge, topped with an expendable vehicle or unit. When his units come on, they will come on the "wrong" side 1/3 of the time, and the rest of the time they will have to fight through sacrificial units and face being destroyed by your counter-attack.

You have to start with at least one model on the board or you would lose automatically.

Not true in the least

The Bloody Handed God wrote:
You have to start with at least one model on the board or you would lose automatically.

Please explain this with source of info.

He still has to roll for what table edge he comes in on. Use a denied flank ( i.e. turtle in one corner of the board ) and obliterate the things that will most likely walk in piece meal.

If it is an objective or ground holding scenario then quickly solidify yourself on one side of the table, kill anything that enters on your side and then push the remenants of his army off the other side's objectives during late game ( Turn 4-5+ ). Make him suffer for trying to tailor his entire army around a gimmicky mechanic instead using it to support a normal army like everyone else.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

The Bloody Handed God wrote:
You have to start with at least one model on the board or you would lose automatically.

Please explain this with source of info.

Against an army with lots of infiltrators, if he has not declared them as outflanking, he simply lines the infiltrators up against your board edge. Unless you're completely mechanized/jump/skimmer based army, you lose, or at least lose a large portion of your army that can't come on the board.

Actually I faced SM's yesterday and he used the outflank charecter... so his whole army came off my right flank (good rolls). Was a very tough game, he look out both vindis and 2 rhinos the turn his army came in :( and a PM squad! (I ultimately won when abby took out both his Hq's in a single assault lol)

willydstyle wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

The Bloody Handed God wrote:
You have to start with at least one model on the board or you would lose automatically.

Please explain this with source of info.

Against an army with lots of infiltrators, if he has not declared them as outflanking, he simply lines the infiltrators up against your board edge. Unless you're completely mechanized/jump/skimmer based army, you lose, or at least lose a large portion of your army that can't come on the board.

please support this with a rulebook source, or at least an FAQ.

How can you move on the board if you cannot move within 1" of an enemy model?

willydstyle wrote:How can you move on the board if you cannot move within 1" of an enemy model?

I play eldar. Jetbike and skimmers jump over with ease. Disembark the units and suddenly there's no one blocking the table edge.

I'm pretty sure that I covered those exceptions... except technically jetbikes, but my meaning was clear.

It's not that starting off the board automatically makes you lose, it's that if your army has no way of moving on the board you will.

I'm not sold on trying to block off a board edge. You're dedicating a lot of units to cover that whole edge and, unless its a kill point mission, your taking them out of the objective fight. Plus, you have to maintain the screen over the course of the game. And I don't have the rule book with me, but can't the outflankers choose to enter from your opponents normal board edge?

As an aside, when using the W.S. character Marines still cannot outflank with vindicators. Only units that normally have the Combat Tactics special rule gain outflank, so Predators, Vindicators, Landspeeders, etc. still have to be set up as normal.

At least you don't play daemons.

A force with lots of infiltrators could make it practicaly impossible to get to be near where you want to be.