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Made in us
Leutnant





Hiding in a dark alley with a sharp knife!

Ok, first off allow me to present to you the Beastman Attack Squad of the 9th Necromundan infantry (motorized) regiment. (counts as penal legion under the new codex) See the attached pic. These are original RT era 40k IG beastmen figures. It's a unit that never fails to get some positive comments when I put it on the table.

Anyway, I've played about half a dozen games with my work in progress retro IG army and each time I've fielded this "counts as" Penal unit and each time it has performed suprisingly well. I'm not sure if it's been luck on my part, poor playing on my opponent's part, or just the simply fact that the Penal legion is a good 80 points spent. Here is a run-down of what my beastmen have done in each of the games they have played to date.

Game 1-
Opponent: Space Marines
Ability rolled: rending
Tactical deployment: Send on flank march alone
Outcome: Destroyed a full strength marine tactical squad and was gunned down the following turn.

Game 2-
Opponent:Imperial Guard
Ability rolled: rending
Tactical deployment: On a flank march with a priest in tow using Creed's special rule.
Outcome: Arrived on turn two and before the end of the game destroyed two infantry squads, a shot-up platoon command squad, and were working on a mortar squad when the game ended.

Game 3-
Opponent: Imperial Guard
Ability rolled: assault 2 lasguns
Tactical deployment: On flank march alone
OUtcome: Entered cover and spent two turns shooting an enemy infantry squad to death and then charged and beat in melee the last two ogryns of a shot up unit. Were still alive at game's end.

Game 4-
Opponent: Space Marines
Ability rolled: furious charge
Tactical deployment: as a mobile counter-attack unit with priest in tow.
Outcome: Bounded forward and "wrong footed" a marine tactical squad and in two turns destroyed it but lost most of their number in return. The following turn a land raider redemer roasted them.

Game 5-
Opponent: Space Orks
Ability rolled: furious charge
Tactical deployment: flank march alone
Outcome: Hit a badly shot up shoota boy unit in the flank and knocked them below 12 models. Managed to win combat and caught the fleeing ork unit durig their rout. However they ran afoul of a battlwagon full of nobs the next turn and died to the man.

Game 6-
Opponent: Imperial Guard
Ability rolled: furious charge
Tactical deployment: attacked as an assault unit with a priest in tow
Outcome: Ran into a stand of woods occupied by an annoying unit of ratlings. Needless to say the ratlings did not stand a chance and only lost one of their number. The following round they were killed to the man by a rough rider attack.

Game 7 (tonight's game)-
Opponent: Imperial Guard
Ability rolled: rending
Tactical deployment: flank marched alone
Outcome:Hit and destroyed an infantry squad. Managed to survive the fire directed at them with only three losses and the following turn they charged and destroyed a leman rus demolisher. (yay rending a rolling lots of sixes!). Game ended with them still on the table much to my opponent's horror.


As I outlined above I'm impressed with how these guys have done...especially for an 80 point unit! This is so much so I'm thinking about painting up a second unit. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking these guys are world beaters and will no doubt die against some serious melee opponents and clearly they have no place in a min-max tourny army. But in a casual game and against the right target they seem to work well.
Thoughts? How have your penal troops done? Should I paint up a second unit or is that over-kill/a waste?

TR
[Thumb - beastieboyz.JPG]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/22 03:09:51


Former Kommandant, KZ Dakka
"I was Oldhammer before Oldhammer was cool!"
 
   
Made in nz
Guardsman with Flashlight



Kapiti Coast, New Zealand

I used four penal squads last game and they al;most won the game for me. All outflanked with an astropath, and all got psychos or rending. They tore up the following:

1 10 man SM tactical squad
1 Rhino with rending
1 landspeeder with S4 attacks
1 whirlwind

At the end of the game they were contesting the objective, having just assaulted pedro with rending, getting 4 rending hits and 2 normal hits on the guy. He only had 1 wound left, but the [player got all his saves, so that won the game for him.

I will be taking 4 every time and outflanking.
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

Penal troops heap good. Friday night game, go pow-wow. Smashed heap many Orks. Afterwards, speakum with FLGS staff. They make heap good deal on bitz. Make many penal troops. When wolf howl at moon, when little ant cross mighty canyon, we go battle bunker. Get five games, all win with penal troops.

Note: It's my time to hang loose and be strange.

People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend






The sink.

Huh. Who would've thought that guard would be fighting marines in CC and winning?
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Huh. Who would've thought that guard would be fighting marines in CC and winning?
\

Apparently the guy who wrote the codex and thought it was appropriate to give guys with sharpened toothbrushes and broken combs the same special rule that represents a genestealer being able to rip a man into pieces.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

willydstyle wrote:
Noisy_Marine wrote:Huh. Who would've thought that guard would be fighting marines in CC and winning?

Apparently the guy who wrote the codex and thought it was appropriate to give guys with sharpened toothbrushes and broken combs the same special rule that represents a genestealer being able to rip a man into pieces.

While at the same time denying that rule to Ogryns...

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

George Spiggott wrote:
willydstyle wrote:
Noisy_Marine wrote:Huh. Who would've thought that guard would be fighting marines in CC and winning?

Apparently the guy who wrote the codex and thought it was appropriate to give guys with sharpened toothbrushes and broken combs the same special rule that represents a genestealer being able to rip a man into pieces.

While at the same time denying that rule to Ogryns...


If I knew that going to prison gave me a chance to be a superhuman, I wouldn't have stayed on the straight-and-narrow all these years

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Sterling, Virginia

What worries me more is that I would go to prison and find I was the only guy who couldn't rip people apart with his bare essentials!


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's like Space Wolf indoctrination. You're either tough enough to make it, or you're not and die. Either way, the Emperor doesn't care.

For what it's worth, Penal Troops still aren't 'as good' as genestealers, whose WS and Init and #attacks make them really hideous, Rending is a bonus. I figure Rending is more like 'finding the soft spot in the armor' than 'being good in melee'. Rending is nice, but they're still hitting on 4's at Init 3 (iirc). With penal troops, the irony is against T4, half of the wounds they cause, ignore armor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/22 14:39:43


In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

dietrich wrote:It's like Space Wolf indoctrination. You're either tough enough to make it, or you're not and die. Either way, the Emperor doesn't care.

For what it's worth, Penal Troops still aren't 'as good' as genestealers, whose WS and Init and #attacks make them really hideous, Rending is a bonus. I figure Rending is more like 'finding the soft spot in the armor' than 'being good in melee'. Rending is nice, but they're still hitting on 4's at Init 3 (iirc). With penal troops, the irony is against T4, half of the wounds they cause, ignore armor.


Well, I never claimed that it made them as good as genestealers, but at half the cost per model of a basic genestealer they're putting out more attacks per point.

IMO I think that the "knife fighters" upgrade would have been better represented by preferred enemy and a bonus attack... the rending is just laughably over the top, although it's what makes them a good unit.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





willydstyle wrote:Well, I never claimed that it made them as good as genestealers, but at half the cost per model of a basic genestealer they're putting out more attacks per point.

Point well taken. Quantity is its own quality, right?

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





South Carolina

An 80 pts guard squad that can get rending...wtf.

As to building another squad think about what it would replace in your army (if all your games are at different points then you dont need to worry).

Also what FOC slot they take up? I'de assume they are troops and if so then I would build another squad. If they are Eliets or something then im not so sure, I don't play guard so I have no idea what they compete against.

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sence, we couldn't react to a lot of life." - Calvin and Hobbes

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Trench-Raider wrote: Now don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking these guys are world beaters and will no doubt die against some serious melee opponents and clearly they have no place in a min-max tourny army. But in a casual game and against the right target they seem to work well.


I think this sums them up really well. In more serious games, against someone who really knows what they're doing, or if you roll a bad ability for them, these guys are going to hamper your army. It sounds like you got really lucky with them a few times, which doesn't belie how they would normally do.

Even with rending or furious charge, a 10 man marine unit should rarely lose many wounds to penal troops. They still only wound marines on a 5, and only get to take away a marine's armor save on a 6. You're only talking about taking away two armor saves on average and that's if they get the charge. Furious charge leaves marines with all of their saves, and you're still only wounding orks and marines on a 4. Assault 2 lasguns are a joke against most armies as well.

That's also if they get into combat... I'm surprised none of your examples had them shot apart before they got to do anything. Even with scout this wouldn't be too hard to do if someone were a decent player.

 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Greenville, South Cacky-Lacky

Casper wrote:An 80 pts guard squad that can get rending...wtf.

As to building another squad think about what it would replace in your army (if all your games are at different points then you dont need to worry).

Also what FOC slot they take up? I'de assume they are troops and if so then I would build another squad. If they are Eliets or something then im not so sure, I don't play guard so I have no idea what they compete against.


Yeah, they're a "Troops" FOC choice.

Alles klar, eh, Kommissar? 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

The ultimate meat shield really. Having stubbborn is kind of just slowed better kill all ten.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







willydstyle wrote:
George Spiggott wrote:
willydstyle wrote:
Noisy_Marine wrote:Huh. Who would've thought that guard would be fighting marines in CC and winning?

Apparently the guy who wrote the codex and thought it was appropriate to give guys with sharpened toothbrushes and broken combs the same special rule that represents a genestealer being able to rip a man into pieces.

While at the same time denying that rule to Ogryns...


If I knew that going to prison gave me a chance to be a superhuman, I wouldn't have stayed on the straight-and-narrow all these years


You wouldn't have survived all those years.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

I said they are red hot. How can anyone dis an 80 point scoring unit that rends from time to time?

G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Mee!

Stand in a crater, as guard, with raised pointed bayonets. Penals will run themselves onto pointy things.

(Lack of defensive grenades or something equivelent really kills it for me)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/25 04:13:44


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Green Blow Fly wrote:that rends from time to time?


This is the problem... who needs even more randomness in 40k...

80 points is almost 100 points... and that's a Valkyrie. There's no way that 10 monkeys who die like flies are as effective as an AV12 rocket hurtling, troop carrier...

 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





Greenville

Of course Kasrkinlegion, Valkyries are so much more effective...

Aside from the fact that in order to give them Multiple Rocket Pods, they suddenly become 130 points, which is just shy of TWO squads of Penal Legionaires, who are only inferior if you discount the fact that they are scoring, are stubborn, and two times out of three will have the potential to beat the crap out of said Valkyrie when it moves to contest the objective you planted them on.

What you need to understand is that a Valkyrie and Penal Legion Squad are very different beasts, and are designed to accomplish different tasks. Valks zip around and throw blasts and generally harass infantry, maybe acting as a rapid transport in the process. Penal Legionaires are suicide attack units that are good enough to dish out some damage, while being cheap enough that it doesn't matter if they get hosed.

For 80 points, you get a unit that can become a serious pain in your opponent's side if ignored or underestimated. Valk dies? Big loss of mobility and antipersonnel firepower. Legionaires die? No big deal, you've got more where they came from.

CK

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person, who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill

Black Templars (8000), Imperial Guard (3000), Sanguinary Host (2000), Tau Empire (1850), Bloodaxes (3000) 
   
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Rough Rider with Boomstick





They seem like a very fun, and at least somewhat effective, choice.

Personally, in my casual games, I have been really enjoying an outflanking 25man Al'Rahem Platoon. Costs the same as 3 squads of PLs, but can take just about anything out (and at range).

But I am in the process of converting up a squad of PLs, so will be trying them out when I am not running Mech

The Happy Guardsman
Red Templars
Radical Inquisitor
 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut






Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:OfAside from the fact that in order to give them Multiple Rocket Pods, they suddenly become 130 points, which is just shy of TWO squads of Penal Legionaires, who are only inferior if you discount the fact that they are scoring, are stubborn, and two times out of three will have the potential to beat the crap out of said Valkyrie when it moves to contest the objective you planted them on.


The 100 point Valk is going to be more effective than penal troopers... two rockets is plenty compared to a pile of bodies. I'm going to cry less when a valk bites it because it will have contested objectives (it can actually contest an objective, not just die standing next to one), dropped off real units, and generally harassed my opponent the entire time it's been on the table. If I really want cc troops, I'll take rough riders for 50 points. They'll do the same job better than penal troopers will for less points...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/25 08:01:14


 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:OfAside from the fact that in order to give them Multiple Rocket Pods, they suddenly become 130 points, which is just shy of TWO squads of Penal Legionaires, who are only inferior if you discount the fact that they are scoring, are stubborn, and two times out of three will have the potential to beat the crap out of said Valkyrie when it moves to contest the objective you planted them on.


The 100 point Valk is going to be more effective than penal troopers... two rockets is plenty compared to a pile of bodies. I'm going to cry less when a valk bites it because it will have contested objectives (it can actually contest an objective, not just die standing next to one), dropped off real units, and generally harassed my opponent the entire time it's been on the table. If I really want cc troops, I'll take rough riders for 50 points. They'll do the same job better than penal troopers will for less points...


Technically, by the rules of the game a valkyrie cannot contest most objectives as it cannot come within 3" of any objective that is at ground-level.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






willydstyle wrote:Technically, by the rules of the game a valkyrie cannot contest most objectives as it cannot come within 3" of any objective that is at ground-level.


The rules never say that skimmers can't contest objectives and anyone who actually tried to play this way would be someone I'd shun at my local game club. If this interpretation had any actual relevance to the game, then you could also never assault skimmers. The rules are pretty specific about how you can assault skimmers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/25 14:25:40


 
   
Made in us
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The eye of terror.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Technically, by the rules of the game a valkyrie cannot contest most objectives as it cannot come within 3" of any objective that is at ground-level.


The rules never say that skimmers can't contest objectives and anyone who actually tried to play this way would be someone I'd shun at my local game club. If this interpretation had any actual relevance to the game, then you could also never assault skimmers. The rules are pretty specific about how you can assault skimmers.


The rules say that a vehicle has to be within 3" of an objective, and that is defined by the vehicle's hull. Blame the guys who wrote the guard codex and designed a model that does not work well with the rules. The rules also specify that you can assault a skimmer by coming into contact with either its hull or its base, but otherwise the base does not count as part of the vehicle's hull.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






willydstyle wrote:The rules say that a vehicle has to be within 3" of an objective, and that is defined by the vehicle's hull. Blame the guys who wrote the guard codex and designed a model that does not work well with the rules. The rules also specify that you can assault a skimmer by coming into contact with either its hull or its base, but otherwise the base does not count as part of the vehicle's hull.


I really hope you don't actually play this way or make arguments like this with your fellow gamers when you're across the table from them. I would imagine it would make for some less than savory gaming experiences... good luck with that...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/25 15:01:33


 
   
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The eye of terror.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
willydstyle wrote:The rules say that a vehicle has to be within 3" of an objective, and that is defined by the vehicle's hull. Blame the guys who wrote the guard codex and designed a model that does not work well with the rules. The rules also specify that you can assault a skimmer by coming into contact with either its hull or its base, but otherwise the base does not count as part of the vehicle's hull.


I really hope you don't actually play this way or make arguments like this with your fellow gamers when you're across the table from them. I would imagine it would make for some less than savory gaming experiences... good luck with that...


I would hope that you would actually play by the rules, or otherwise I would imagine it would make for some less-than-savory gaming experiences.

Honestly, if I were playing guard, I would play by the rules. If I were playing against a guard player I wouldn't have a problem with him contesting an objective with a valkyrie. I hold myself to a higher standard than my opponents.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






If you really want to talk about rules, there are no rules for how to base a model any more. Technically I could put my Valkyrie on a flat base that's 24" in diameter. Then I could plop it down on the table and contest everything.

Never says you have to put the model on a flying base...

You really think logic like this is how the game is supposed to be played?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/25 15:13:18


 
   
Made in fi
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Finland

It is just the way things are. To contest ( or capture if carrying embarked Troops ) you have to get the hull 3" from the objective and with the Valkyrie this is not always possible. Blame the guys who wrote the Codex and didn´t think about this little point ( among with some others ) . But as always you are free to discuss this with your opponents and come up with a houserule. I make a point of going through the shady points ( 3", embark/disembark, Dangerous Terrain vs Hull ) of the Valks with my opponents before games. I´ve played with the strict "non-contesting" ruling all my games so far and it hasn´t crippled my army. You just have to take it into account when planning the movement of your units and when to disembark them.

12001st Valusian Airborne
Chrome Warriors
Death Guard
 
   
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The eye of terror.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:If you really want to talk about rules, there are no rules for how to base a model any more. Technically I could put my Valkyrie on a flat base that's 24" in diameter. Then I could plop it down on the table and contest everything.

Never says you have to put the model on a flying base...

You really think logic like this is how the game is supposed to be played?


Page 3 of the rulebook says differently. It says that models come with a base, and must be glued to their bases before they can be used in the game. I just the think game should be played by the rules that we have, rather than by the rules that we wish we had. Imagine a game ends on turn 6, and your opponent thinks he has the game. You say "but oh, my valkyrie is contesting this objective" and he says "but it's not within 3 inches, I did not know that you thought it was contesting." Who is in the right there? The guy who is playing by the rules.

A-P wrote: It is just the way things are. To contest ( or capture if carrying embarked Troops ) you have to get the hull 3" from the objective and with the Valkyrie this is not always possible. Blame the guys who wrote the Codex and didn´t think about this little point ( among with some others ) . But as always you are free to discuss this with your opponents and come up with a houserule. I make a point of going through the shady points ( 3", embark/disembark, Dangerous Terrain vs Hull ) of the Valks with my opponents before games. I´ve played with the strict "non-contesting" ruling all my games so far and it hasn´t crippled my army. You just have to take it into account when planning the movement of your units and when to disembark them.


If you absolutely need to break the rules, this is the way to do it, discuss things that are murky before the game even starts.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
 
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